Jude Bellingham | Confirmed Borussia Dortmund player

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Cliche Guevara

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He already had the skills, just needed to improve his game. He’d have learned that most places during that period of his life.

And if Ronaldo hadn’t listened it would have been his fault. There’s no way Ronaldo wouldn’t have been the player he became if he didn’t have a world class coach. He was always going to develop significantly between 17 and 23.

As much as I love Fergie, and reckon he’s the best, hundreds of players came through United during his time and didn’t make it.

That wasn’t the club’s fault.
 

Damien

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That strategy is winning them titles and keeping them in the CL, where they've thrived - more than we can say at the moment. They've found a sustainable and profitable strategy given the league they play in.
It's probably around the same if we factor in the last few years of Sir Alex, but it's hard to deny that the post-Fergie years have been trainwreck after trainwreck with little tangible success and plenty of mediocrity on and off the pitch. Only the honeymoon period under Ole and the last few months prior to the league shutting down have really felt like the United most of us fell in love with to start. I never got it with Moyes, never got it with LVG, and certainly didn't with Jose.


We've won more in both categories, and that is including the dubious honour of the Charity Shield (Super Cup in Bundesliga) which is a glorified friendly. Without it we've still won more.

As for thriving in the Champions League, their results aren't that much better than ours. Obviously they've qualified for it two more times than we have, but I wouldn't say they are thriving in the competition when they haven't made it past the last 16 in the past three attempts.

SeasonUnitedDortmund
2013-14​
Quarter Final​
Quarter Final​
2014-15​
N/A​
Last 16​
2015-16​
3rd in Group​
N/A (EL QF)​
2016-17​
N/A (EL winners)​
Quarter Final​
2017-18​
Last 16​
3rd in Group​
2018-19​
Quarter Final​
Last 16​
2019-20​
N/A (EL in progress)​
Last 16​

I do agree with you that their strategy has served them well, though, and ultimately I think it's the right move for Bellingham if he does go there.
 

do.ob

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He already had the skills, just needed to improve his game. He’d have learned that most places during that period of his life.

And if Ronaldo hadn’t listened it would have been his fault. There’s no way Ronaldo wouldn’t have been the player he became if he didn’t have a world class coach.

As much as I love Fergie, and reckon he’s the best, hundreds of players came through United during his time and didn’t make it.

That wasn’t the club’s fault.
I don't really understand that logic... coaching input is a factor in a player's development; talent and determination are perhaps more important factors, but that doesn't mean the former doesn't exist. Had a coach just blown sugar up Ronaldo's ass during his formative years, who knows whether he would have kept/developed his drive and tactical discipline and developed the decision making that he has.

Since this is partly about Dormtund take a look at Haaland: his goal scorer's instinct is something he already came with, but at Dortmund he's part of a possession heavy team, that demands of him to be a part of their build up, to hold on to the ball in tight spaces, it's a deficit that has become quite apparent as he joined them. That will help him develop that aspect of his game much more than if he were to play in a counter attacking team, where his main purpose would be running into space or tapping in goals.
 

Cliche Guevara

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I don't really understand that logic... coaching input is a factor in a player's development; talent and determination are perhaps more important factors, but that doesn't mean the former doesn't exist. Had a coach just blown sugar up Ronaldo's ass during his formative years, who knows whether he would have kept/developed his drive and tactical discipline and developed the decision making that he has.

Since this is partly about Dormtund take a look at Haaland: his goal scorer's instinct is something he already came with, but at Dortmund he's part of a possession heavy team, that demands of him to be a part of their build up, to hold on to the ball in tight
spaces, it's a deficit that has become quite apparent as he joined them. That will help him develop that aspect of his game much more than if he were to play in a counter attacking team, where his main purpose would be running into space or tapping in goals.
He’ll learn to do that as he is playing part of a team who does that, there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t learn that somewhere else. Or a different facet to his game which would also improve.

There’s also nothing to say he will become any good at it just by being taught it.

Or he might be good at it but it doesn’t matter because he gets signed by a top team because he can score 40 goals per season, and that team doesn’t play that way.

I appreciate it might be a difficult argument to explain.

Let’s just say I don’t think a talented player’s development is particularly club dependent or that a good player won’t become better just because he has a shite manager in his formative years.

There’s nothing being coached at Dortmund that the majority of other clubs in the world don’t know anything about.
 

do.ob

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He’ll learn to do that as he is playing part of a team who does that, there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t learn that somewhere else. Or a different facet to his game.

There’s also nothing to say he will become any good at it just by being taught it.

Or he might be good at it but it doesn’t matter because he gets signed by a top team because he can score 40 goals per season, and that team doesn’t play that way.

I appreciate it might be a difficult argument to explain.

Let’s just say I don’t think a talented player’s development is particularly club dependent or that a good player won’t become better just because he has a shite manager in his formative years.
It's not really a difficult argument, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Haaland wants to become a (more) well rounded player, so he joined a club/coach that demands a complete profile from him. No one said that Dortmund is the only club that could mould him that way. If development was just a function of talent you wouldn't have so many players who get lost along the way.
 

Cliche Guevara

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It's not really a difficult argument, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Haaland wants to become a (more) well rounded player, so he joined a club/coach that demands a complete profile from him. No one said that Dortmund is the only club that could mould him that way. If development was just a function of talent you wouldn't have so many players who get lost along the way.
The fact so many players get lost along the way tells me it’s far more than coaching setup.

I also don’t believe that a talented player only fulfills his potential if he has the right coaching and, somehow, Dortmund has a way of working few clubs know about.
 

do.ob

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The fact so many players get lost along the way tells me it’s far more than coaching setup.

I also don’t believe that a talented player only fulfills his potential if he has the right coaching and, somehow, Dortmund has a way of working few clubs know about.
Who said that Dortmund have a unique way of developing players? Certainly not me? Not everything has to be an extreme. Every player is unique in their own way, how much they have to rely on coaching or their team and how much they develop/bring on their own is subjective.
 

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Gotcha, I haven't seen much of either but from the bits I've seen they seem to have similar attributes and are close in age, so if we are going to go big in this window on a player who is young enough to play Under-19 football then Camavinga would make more sense as we lack a proper holder in the youth ranks IMO, although I know some will cite Garner.
Camavinga would be quite a coup for us if we managed to sign him.
 

limerickcitykid

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I did answer your question.

They aren’t to make a player be better at football they are there to integrate them into a team and play matches successfully.

It’s not that hard to understand. A player’s development is his responsibility not a coach’s. Players don’t fail in football because they weren’t coached well enough.
So youth teams which aren’t set up with the intention of being successful can just be coached by anyone? Your claim makes all youth coaches essentially pointless.

Have you actually played the game and interacted with a knowledgeable coach?

Coaches play no part in developing players... Absolutely flabbergasted how someone could try claim something so ridiculous.
 

Cliche Guevara

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So youth teams which aren’t set up with the intention of being successful can just be coached by anyone? Your claim makes all youth coaches essentially pointless.

Have you actually played the game and interacted with a knowledgeable coach?

Coaches play no part in developing players... Absolutely flabbergasted how someone could try claim something so ridiculous.
Who’s talking about youth coaches buddy?
 

Beaucoup

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I did answer your question.

They aren’t to make a player be better at football they are there to integrate them into a team and play matches successfully.

It’s not that hard to understand. A player’s development is his responsibility not a coach’s. Players don’t fail in football because they weren’t coached well enough.
I agree with you to an extent, Youth coaches challenge and test players to improve, but it’s ultimately down to the player to develop, if you don’t, they move on to the next one and you get dropped like a brick.
 

TheReligion

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Rash (well yes, hope he'll be world class one day), McT (yes, I like him, still young but not good enough to win titles again atm), Williams (well...wait and see. Not sure he'll be something special), Tuanzebe (same as Williams), Fred (well, I was behind him in the 1st season, happy to be right about him).
Greenwood..

United develop more players than anyone else.
 

Motorman

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Is there anything in this Dortmund transfer?

Is it all still hearsay?

Last I saw anything concrete was Bellingham himself leaving Carrington?

I really want to sign this guy, so maybe selective reading on my part!?! :wenger:
 

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Greenwood..

United develop more players than anyone else.
Greenwood is a young gifted player. Proved nothing so we'll see if United could help him to reach his potential.
United develop a lot of players? Yes but not good enough to win again.
 

forevrared

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Greenwood..

United develop more players than anyone else.
Yes, when they come through the academy.

Signing young players and developing them is a different story. De Gea and Martial are the only teenagers we've signed and turned into bonafide first teamers in quite some time - and both of them were record signings (Martial most expensive teenager, De Gea British record for a keeper). You can make an argument for Shaw, but he's looked a miss much more than a hit in his time -- and he also held the record for most expensive teenager before Martial broke it.
 

georgipep

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Yes, when they come through the academy.

Signing young players and developing them is a different story. De Gea and Martial are the only teenagers we've signed and turned into bonafide first teamers in quite some time - and both of them were record signings (Martial most expensive teenager, De Gea British record for a keeper). You can make an argument for Shaw, but he's looked a miss much more than a hit in his time -- and he also held the record for most expensive teenager before Martial broke it.
You do know that Pogba, Januzaj, Pereira, Pique, Rossi, have all been signed as teenagers and then further developed at Manchester United, right?

Also, before that, Jones, Rafael, Nani, Anderson, even Cristiano and Rooney.... More recently Dalot, Shaw
 

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Greenwood is a young gifted player. Proved nothing so we'll see if United could help him to reach his potential.
United develop a lot of players? Yes but not good enough to win again.
In that case same with Dortmund too as Bayern won the league every year for past 6-7 years?

Whoever Dortmund developed in last 6-7 years didn't win anything (with Dortmund) except German cup
 

forevrared

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You do know that Pogba, Januzaj, Pereira, Pique, Rossi, have all been signed as teenagers and then further developed at Manchester United, right?

Also, before that, Jones, Rafael, Nani, Anderson, even Cristiano and Rooney.... More recently Dalot, Shaw
You've missed the point. Pay attention to the phrase "in quite some time". We're not the same club we were when nearly every player you listed was signed and even so, you've got to go through your list until you get to fecking Rooney and Ronaldo to get to players who played every game they were available for.

Pogba signed as a kid for the academy and left after playing only 7 times -- Juve turned him into the player he is now.
Januzaj was another academy signing who became the bright spot in an otherwise awful season before revealing himself to be shit.
Pereira spent something like 3 or 4 years in the academy before making his way to the first team and he's still only a bit part player (and not a very good one at that).
Pique played 20 games in 4 seasons before returning to Barca.
Rossi played even less than Pique.

Regardless, all of them were signed for peanuts for the academy and don't really apply.

Phil Jones has never established himself and has played less than 20 games in 5 of his 9 seasons so far - not once playing 30 games.
Rafael was class but was signed 13 years ago, as were Anderson and Nani.
Ronaldo signed for us when Bellingham was about 2 months old and Rooney when he was in diapers, as well.

I did mention Shaw. Dalot is on the fringes of the team at best now and will likely be sold soon.
 

georgipep

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You've missed the point. Pay attention to the phrase "in quite some time". We're not the same club we were when nearly every player you listed was signed and even so, you've got to go through your list until you get to fecking Rooney and Ronaldo to get to players who played every game they were available for.

Pogba signed as a kid for the academy and left after playing only 7 times -- Juve turned him into the player he is now.
Januzaj was another academy signing who became the bright spot in an otherwise awful season before revealing himself to be shit.
Pereira spent something like 3 or 4 years in the academy before making his way to the first team and he's still only a bit part player (and not a very good one at that).
Pique played 20 games in 4 seasons before returning to Barca.
Rossi played even less than Pique.

Regardless, all of them were signed for peanuts for the academy and don't really apply.

Phil Jones has never established himself and has played less than 20 games in 5 of his 9 seasons so far - not once playing 30 games.
Rafael was class but was signed 13 years ago, as were Anderson and Nani.
Ronaldo signed for us when Bellingham was about 2 months old and Rooney when he was in diapers, as well.

I did mention Shaw. Dalot is on the fringes of the team at best now and will likely be sold soon.
Have I (missed the point)? I see you have quite the selective criteria, so let me ask you this:

How many teenagers, who were bought for big money, have been developed into "players who played every game they were available for" by the top tier teams in the top 5 leagues? For sake of consistency, let's apply the same time span you vaguely allude to, since "quote some time".

Barcelona?
Real Madrid?
Atletico Madrid? (please don't say Joao Felix, counting a player who cost an 11-digit sum in pounds would be ridiculous)
PSG?
Bayern Munich - not sure if you want to count Kimmich, who was 20 when bought. Alaba was bought "for peanuts" in 2008 so I can't possible count him in. The only one I can think of is Alphonso Davies. Who was bought last summer. I'd say he was the complete package when he came in but hey, maybe you disagree.
Juventus?
Inter Milan?
Manchester City - Gabriel Jesus came when 20, same as Sane when he was bought.
Chelsea?
Arsenal?
Liverpool?

I struggle to understand your point. What exactly are you saying? We do not develop teenage players into mainstay top class players? If so, I'd argue that's not our prime directive.

If we are directly comparing to Dortmund, then maybe there is a point. But it's the same point one can make about Monaco or Ajax. They are a feeder club who plays the market smartly. I know that, I hope you know that. Professional footballers DEFINITELY know that. If you want to play week-in, week-out and then be sold to a better team, you go to Dortmund. If you have the confidence of a Rooney, for example, you want to go to the top team already.

Just my view anyway. Don't mean to be aggressive or offensive and I apologize if I come across as such.

Edit: I've checked Real Madrid's team and must admit a few mistakes on my end: Varane was 18 when bought from Lens and has been an undoubted success. Marcelo was 19 when brought from Fluminense. Vinicius Junior is still 19 and Marco Asensio was 19 when brought from Mallorca. Whether the last two are considered "players who played every game they were available for" is up for debate. But I definitely admit Varane and Marcelo. Real have had great success with those two teenager transfers.
 
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Striker10

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Greenwood is a young gifted player. Proved nothing so we'll see if United could help him to reach his potential.
United develop a lot of players? Yes but not good enough to win again.
I'm not sure about that. It depends mostly on the manager and I trust Ole over Moyes/LVG and Jose. You need the right manager and that can take time but United juggle a lot of politics with a demanding fanbase who want a certain type of football. Of course much depends how we come back into this season and whether we can build on it next.
 

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As a United, I would be disappointed if he did go to Dortmund. But I would love it if he does become world class. It will help England a lot to have a chance in winning something.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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As a United, I would be disappointed if he did go to Dortmund. But I would love it if he does become world class. It will help England a lot to have a chance in winning something.
A shame there will be no U17 Euros this year.....the midfield with Bellingham, Chukwuemeka, Musiala & Patino and the attack with Dembele, Elliott, Barry & Diallo would kill all teams.
 

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Have no time for a teenager having a hard time selecting between us and Dortmund. Experienced players should be craving to player for us let alone these young guns, let them be. If he’s not like Daniel James in his desire to play here, I don’t want him.
 

theklr

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Is there anything in this Dortmund transfer?

Is it all still hearsay?

Last I saw anything concrete was Bellingham himself leaving Carrington?

I really want to sign this guy, so maybe selective reading on my part!?! :wenger:
Some semi-reliable sources saying he’s going Dortmund, not that many saying he’s coming here. Thats about it really.
 

Artorias

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Have no time for a teenager having a hard time selecting between us and Dortmund. Experienced players should be craving to player for us let alone these young guns, let them be. If he’s not like Daniel James in his desire to play here, I don’t want him.
Agree with you. If he doesn't want to be here, let it be.
 

Adnan

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I guess everything might not be agreed after all, if you can't pay the compensation to Birmingham.
 

Infestissumam

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maybe I'm reading this one wrong, but I think it means "Birmingham want more than BVB want to pay" than "BVB can't afford it".
 

Sean_RedDevil

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I guess everything might not be agreed after all, if you can't pay the compensation to Birmingham.
maybe I'm reading this one wrong, but I think it means "Birmingham want more than BVB want to pay" than "BVB can't afford it".
Reports have said in the last weeks that Dortmund can't/wouldn't spend much money in the summer therefore i was anyway very surprised that they would spend 30m for a 16-year old.
 
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