Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[BobbyManc]

If the defence for messages like wishing someone died in a fire is that it's fine because nobody was supposed to read it, it's not the greatest of starts is it?

fecking hell I just re-read the article and didn’t realise the statement was explicitly in response to comments including those. That’s horrendous.

 

[Synco]

Many of the concepts of what is antisemitism being banded around in this thread would cause the majority of the orthodox community in Greater Manchester to be defined as antisemites. This is tiresome.

I can only guess what you're alluding to, but in my eyes any credible take on the matter has to make some kind of distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish perspectives on antisemitism and Zionism. There can be no checklist definition regardless of context.

 

[DOTA]

I can only guess what you're alluding to, but in my eyes any credible take on the matter has to make some kind of distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish perspectives on antisemitism and Zionism. There can be no checklist definition regardless of context.

Yes. I think Jewish voices need to be taken more seriously and I am fed up of the astonishing and deliberate ignorance of the views of many of the UK orthodox population on this.

 

[elnorte]

‘I have proven that it is not a myth courtesy of two personal anecdotes.'

It just goes to show you're not the only one who thinks this way. Everyone has prejudices to some degree. Just as long as you don't act on them.

 

[Synco]

Yes. I think Jewish voices need to be taken more seriously and I am fed up of the astonishing and deliberate ignorance of the views of many of the UK orthodox population on this.

What are these views and how are they disregarded? Not living in the UK, or Manchester in particular, so not familiar with this issue.

But in general there are people in every camp who show an aggressive attitude towards inconvenient Jewish opinions. In inner-Jewish rifts it seems worse among the right wing (JINO, Kapos, ...), outside in the anti-Israel camp (racists, fascists, Nazis, ...).

That's not to say Jews aren't simply normal people whose opinions can be right/wrong/good/bad. But more often than not it's apparent if there's an honest attempt to be fair and reasonable, or not.

 

[DOTA]

What are these views and how are they disregarded? Not living in the UK, or Manchester in particular, so not familiar with this issue.

But in general there are people in every camp who show an aggressive attitude towards inconvenient Jewish opinions. In inner-Jewish rifts it seems worse among the right wing (JINO, Kapos, ...), outside in the anti-Israel camp (racists, fascists, Nazis, ...).

That's not to say Jews aren't simply normal people whose opinions can be right/wrong/good/bad. But more often than not it's apparent if there's an honest attempt to be fair and reasonable, or not.

The view that criticism of the Israeli government should be assessed so aggressively as to paint views held by many British Jews as antisemitic. They are completely disregarded by the British media. You get barely any articles about the views of UK Jews who are upset that their ethnicity is being used to defend a government they detest from criticism. They're completely ignored and it's dangerously antisemtic to divide the UK Jewish population in to 'good Jews and bad Jews' and then choose to pretend one group doesn't exist.

 

[Synco]

The view that criticism of the Israeli government should be assessed so aggressively as to paint views held by many British Jews as antisemitic. They are completely disregarded by the British media. You get barely any articles about the views of UK Jews who are upset that their ethnicity is being used to defend a government they detest from criticism. They're completely ignored and it's dangerously antisemtic to divide the UK Jewish population in to 'good Jews and bad Jews' and then choose to pretend one group doesn't exist.

This tendency is indeed extremely harmful. The ability to take opposing Jewish views into account in a serious fashion says a lot about someone's approach, imo.

Not sure how much we're on the same page beyond that - as I said, I see this 'good Jews/bad Jews' logic present in "both" factions. (Oversimplifying the constellation here.) As far as I can make out, you've so far concentrated on one side.

 

[DOTA]

This tendency is indeed extremely harmful. The ability to take opposing Jewish views into account in a serious fashion says a lot about someone's approach, imo.

Not sure how much we're on the same page beyond that - as I said, I see this 'good Jews/bad Jews' logic present in "both" factions. (Oversimplifying the constellation here.) As far as I can make out, you've so far concentrated on one side.

As fascinating as we may be, this isn't about us, this about the climate in the UK regarding discussions of antisemitism. Do you disagree that the views of a huge amount of UK Jews have been intentionally excluded from this discussion by the largest media organisations?

 

[Ramshock]

Keir Starmer did the only right and decent thing.


If the relation is that loose, then I have to assume that anti Israel is de facto antisemitism.
The way you phrase it (bringing fascism so elegantly into play) makes me question the balance in your views, to be frank.


No familiarity to be honest. You do realize that there is an attacker with a knife, don't you?

See what I mean. Criticize the state of Israel and its anti semitism.

Your logic is flawed and dangerous and quite frankly I dont have much faith in your intelligence. Nethanyhu is the definition of a fascist.

 

[Synco]

As fascinating as we may be, this isn't about us, this about the climate in the UK regarding discussions of antisemitism. Do you disagree that the views of a huge amount of UK Jews have been intentionally excluded from this discussion by the largest media organisations?

As I said, I don't live there, so I partly have to generalize from the way these discourses generally work in Western publics.

But according to what I know from the UK, I can certainly believe it. It's quite obviously true for the right wing/right-leaning press, and I know how influential it is.

As fascinating as we may be, this isn't about us, this about the climate in the UK regarding discussions of antisemitism.

Well, my question was meant to be about this. (Only caveat, as I said, is that my background experience isn't UK-specific. But much of this issue isn't either.)

 

[DOTA]

As I said, I don't live there, so I partly have to generalize from the way these discourses generally work in Western publics.

But according to what I know from the UK, I can certainly believe it. It's quite obviously true for the right wing/right-leaning press, and I know how influential it is.

Well, my question was meant to be about this. (Only caveat, as I said, is that my background experience isn't UK-specific. But much of this issue isn't either.)

I don't know why you're attempting to contribute to this thread, in that case. If you don't know enough it's often better to read rather than post.

 

[Synco]

I don't know why you're attempting to contribute to this thread, in that case. If you don't know enough it's often better to read rather than post.

I mostly do. Otherwise:

my background experience isn't UK-specific. But much of this issue isn't either.

The post I quoted made a general point, that's what I replied to.

 

[DOTA]

I mostly do. Otherwise:

This isn't a thread about antisemitism in general. It's a thread about Keir Starmer that has currently become a thread about antisemitism in the UK. If you don't know enough to discuss that then you're in the wrong thread.

 

[Synco]

This isn't a thread about antisemitism in general. It's a thread about Keir Starmer that has currently become a thread about antisemitism in the UK. If you don't know enough to discuss that then you're in the wrong thread.

As if these issues have no relation with each other. Anyway, not worth any further hassle.

 

[JMack1234]

Advancing Anti-Semitic conspiracy is no longer acceptable in the UK Labour party- shock.

However, we should all be worried about a political obsessive like Maxine Peake spouting such nonsense. For which she has apologised (

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I wish Starmer well in his bid to rid the Labour party of Antisemitism.

 

[DOTA]

Advancing Anti-Semitic conspiracy is no longer acceptable in the UK Labour party- shock.

However, we should all be worried about a political obsessive like Maxine Peake spouting such nonsense. For which she has apologised (

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)

I wish Starmer well in his bid to rid the Labour party of Antisemitism.

She wrote an article calling for the left to support Labour and Starmer turned it in to an event that's caused huge numbers of people to leave the party.

As I've said before, I don't really care about the Labour party, it serves only as a distraction from real avenues for change.

I'm morbidly curious as to those of you who think things are going well though.

 

[Halftrack]

Because they are antisemites. That's the reason.
You could talk about oppression and racism in Germany, France, Spain, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, China, Brazil, Finland, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India and so on, and so on.
The mere fact that they seem to be infatuated with talking about Israel reveals their bias/prejudice against Israel.

No.

 

[Wibble]

Because they are antisemites. That's the reason.
You could talk about oppression and racism in Germany, France, Spain, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, China, Brazil, Finland, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India and so on, and so on.
The mere fact that they seem to be infatuated with talking about Israel reveals their bias/prejudice against Israel.

So the entire labor party and presumably by extension those who vote for them are antisemitic? Are all Tories and those who vote for them racists then? All of them?

Can we have a bit less genaralising please? And by please I mean ......

 

[Classical Mechanic]

As fascinating as we may be, this isn't about us, this about the climate in the UK regarding discussions of antisemitism. Do you disagree that the views of a huge amount of UK Jews have been intentionally excluded from this discussion by the largest media organisations?

You can make exactly the same argument about the 30% of minorities that voted for Brexit or black people that don’t agree with BLM or anti-racist ideology. They too, by-and-large, are excluded from the mainstream debate.

 

[DOTA]

You can make exactly the same argument about the 30% of minorities that voted for Brexit or black people that don’t agree with BLM or anti-racist ideology. They too, by-and-large, are excluded from the mainstream debate.

I don't think I could.

I don't think there are black British communities that disagree with anti-racist ideology. I think there's just individuals.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't think I could.

I don't think there are black British communities that disagree with anti-racist ideology. I think there's just individuals.

Why does it have to be a ‘community’ as you term it? Although a minority the numbers are probably not insignificant.

Out of interest which part of the Jewish community in Prestwich are you talking about and what is their view that would be termed as anti-Semitic, by the standards of this thread?

 

[Sweet Square]

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The Labour leader will reboot the scheme – originally founded in 2011 – today with a virtual roundtable joined by members of the service community to “open up Labour again to our armed forces”.

Everything so far points to a Labour going back to the pre 2017 Ed Miliband days. Christ he can't even steal bits from the New Labour days.

 

[UweBein]

Would you be so kind as to elaborate upon this pretty strong remark?

I'm quite happy to return the favour and elaborate as to how I think you're enabling antisemitism.

You wrote „Many of the concepts of what is antisemitism being banded around in this thread would cause the majority of the orthodox community in Greater Manchester to be defined as antisemites. This is tiresome.“

I replied that‘s not a valid argument and it is a chain of logic used by white supremacist. They justify certain racist behaviour by pointing out that it‘s not racist since the black ( or a part of it) Community is displaying the same behaviour.

So pointing to the orthodox community does not necessarily justify your stance, because belonging to a community does make a difference. Now if you identify as a part of that community - please disregard my post.

 

[UweBein]

No.

This isn't about reclaiming a word. Not remotely. It's about disregarding Jewish opinions because they don't fit the narrative of right wing Anglos.

Oh... I am sure that‘s true. But in that sense the views of the Uzbekh community and those of other communities have been unappreciated for far too long in the UK/EU. So why fight specifically for this community? (Unless you identify yourself as a member of that community.)

 

[DOTA]

Why does it have to be a ‘community’ as you term it? Although a minority the numbers are probably not insignificant.

Out of interest which part of the Jewish community in Prestwich are you talking about and what is their view that would be termed as anti-Semitic, by the standards of this thread?

Because I think the numbers are probably insignificant.

As I've said it's the orthodox community in Prestwich I'm talking about. I think it's entirely orthodox around there, to be honest, I don't know if you have a different impression?

Orthodox views on Israel are complicated. Many do not support the existence of a Jewish state. Many do whilst being extremely critical of its government. Orthodox people have their own parties in Israel. They are vehemently opposed to the current government and their criticisms of it would most certainly not pass the the criteria of 'what is and isn't acceptable criticism of Israel' that many of you think is appropriate.

Oh... I am sure that‘s true. But in that sense the views of the Uzbekh community and those of other communities have been unappreciated for far too long in the UK/EU. So why fight specifically for this community? (Unless you identify yourself as a member of that community.)

I am not Jewish. I briefly lived in a predominantly orthodox community and I go back there a few times a year to see my family.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Because I think the numbers are probably insignificant.

As I've said it's the orthodox community in Prestwich I'm talking about. I think it's entirely orthodox around there, to be honest, I don't know if you have a different impression?

Orthodox views on Israel are complicated. Many do not support the existence of a Jewish state. Many do whilst being extremely critical of its government. Orthodox people have their own parties in Israel. They are vehemently opposed to the current government and their criticisms of it would most certainly not pass the the criteria of 'what is and isn't acceptable criticism of Israel' that many of you think is appropriate.

I am not Jewish. I briefly lived in a predominantly orthodox community and I go back there a few times a year to see my family.

It's not all orthodox and there are different factions within that orthodox community. A lot of non-Jewish people live there too. I've lived near Prestwich for most of my life and have considered moving there. It's become quite a hipster area now and property prices are rising pretty fast. The orthodox areas are pretty fascinating, they're completely self contained, affluent and it kind of feels like stepping back in time when you go through there. You rarely hear anything at all from that community and you almost wouldn't know such a distinctive group of people exist if you didn't go into or near the area.

What we do know in Manchester is that spikes in anti-Semitic attacks have occurred when Israel have been involved in conflicts in the Middle East. I think its fair to say that RLB's promoting of an unsubstantiated claim of indirect Israeli involvement in the death of George Floyd is at the very least problematic. Given what I've read about the orthodox communities feelings about the recent rise in anti-Semitic attacks here I would be surprised if they were not worried by this conflation being promoted in the UK media.

 

[DOTA]

It's not all orthodox and there are different factions within that orthodox community. A lot of non-Jewish people live there too. I've lived near Prestwich for most of my life and have considered moving there. It's become quite a hipster area now and property prices are rising pretty fast. The orthodox areas are pretty fascinating, they're completely self contained, affluent and it kind of feels like stepping back in time when you go through there. You rarely hear anything at all from that community and you almost wouldn't know such a distinctive group of people exist if you didn't go into or near the area.

What we do know in Manchester is that spikes in anti-Semitic attacks have occurred when Israel have been involved in conflicts in the Middle East. I think its fair to say that RLB's promoting of an unsubstantiated claim of indirect Israeli involvement in the death of George Floyd is at the very least problematic. Given what I've read about the orthodox communities feelings about the recent rise in anti-Semitic attacks here I would be surprised if they were not worried by this conflation being promoted in the UK media.

It's the area around Broughton fire station I know best, which is not anywhere near as wealthy as property prices might have you believe. There are buildings you'd think were the houses of multi-millionaires if you didn't know that behind the gates they were actually separated so that several different families could share them. They all shop at Lidl.

They're very understandably terrified of the rise in anti-semitism in the area. I very much doubt you could find many who agree with you that what Rebecca Long-Bailey shared could potentially contribute to such.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's the area around Broughton fire station I know best, which is not anywhere near as wealthy as property prices might have you believe. There are buildings you'd think were the houses of multi-millionaires if you didn't know that behind the gates they were actually separated so that several different families could share them. They all shop at Lidl.

They're very understandably terrified of the rise in anti-semitism in the area. I very much doubt you could find many who agree with you that what Rebecca Long-Bailey shared could potentially contribute to such.

I completely disagree. If there are spikes in antisemitism when Israel are involved in conflict flare-ups, then how do you estimate that a conflation of Israel involvement in police brutality against black people in the US isn't harmful in this climate?

 

[BobbyManc]

Everything so far points to a Labour going back to the pre 2017 Ed Miliband days. Christ he can't even steal bits from the New Labour days.

Yeah it’s pretty funny how people on here are so keen to associate Starmer with the electorally-successful Blair era, when really it far more resembles the Miliband opposition at the moment.

 

[DOTA]

I completely disagree. If there are spikes in antisemitism when Israel are involved in conflict flare-ups, then how do you estimate that a conflation of Israel involvement in police brutality against black people in the US isn't harmful in this climate?

The spikes in anti-semitic violence that coincide with intense moments in Israeli-Palestinian conflicts obviously have nothing to do with anyone's views about Israeli government agencies training of US police forces. Are you really suggesting you think Jews in Salford think what Maxine Peake said puts them at risk?

 

[Rams]

To criticize Israel for their handling of Palestinians is not anti-Semitic. To imply that Israel is (partly) to blame for police brutality towards that black communities in the US is ant-Semitic.
That stupid bint posted an article from a well known anti-Semitic. Then on several occasions she was asked to take the post down because parts of it could be interpreted as anti-Semitic, but she refused to do so. Yet people say they don’t understand why she was sacked?! Give over...

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah it’s pretty funny how people on here are so keen to associate Starmer with the electorally-successful Blair era, when really it far more resembles the Miliband opposition at the moment.

Yeah so far the Miliband era has been the real breakaway from New Labour. If I had to guess its because

1)There's isn't that many Blairites left in the party(They've all fecked off into jobs privatizing the British economy)

2)People forget just how socially conservative and openly racist New Labour were. It's simply too right wing to go back to(Although Starmer has just started)

3)The 08 crash and everything that followed has killed it as a political project.


Who knows where Starmer Labour will end up but if anyone thinks it's going to just be a more electable 2017 in a nicer suit then they are in for a shock.

The spikes in anti-semitic violence that coincide with intense moments in Israeli-Palestinian conflicts obviously have nothing to do with anyone's views about Israeli government agencies training of US police forces. Are you really suggesting you think Jews in Salford think what Maxine Peake said puts them at risk?

I'll be waiting for @Classical Mechanic calls for the resignation of Labour leader considering he hosts a monthly radio show with Nick "If you don't like it here, LEAVE" Ferrari.

 

[BobbyManc]

To criticize Israel for their handling of Palestinians is not anti-Semitic. To imply that Israel is (partly) to blame for police brutality towards that black communities in the US is ant-Semitic.
That stupid bint posted an article from a well known anti-Semitic. Then on several occasions she was asked to take the post down because parts of it could be interpreted as anti-Semitic, but she refused to do so. Yet people say they don’t understand why she was sacked?! Give over...

‘That stupid bint’ - is it really that hard to criticise a woman without having to use such misogynistic language?

 

[Rams]

‘That stupid bint’ - is it really that hard to criticise a woman without having to use such misogynistic language?

I would have called her a stupid nob end if she was male. What I’m trying to say she had either been very foolish or she’s deliberately trying to cause a stir.

 

[Maticmaker]

Wonder if Maxine Peake will be getting a Christmas card from RBL, bet she does from Sir Keir?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The spikes in anti-semitic violence that coincide with intense moments in Israeli-Palestinian conflicts obviously have nothing to do with anyone's views about Israeli government agencies training of US police forces. Are you really suggesting you think Jews in Salford think what Maxine Peake said puts them at risk?

Negative perceptions of Israel have seen rises in antisemitism.

Ideas giving Israel a hand in police brutality against black in the US people will result in negative perceptions of Israel.

I would stop short of saying they fear for lives because I'm not aware of any antisemitic murders happening around here for as long as I can remember (could be wrong). The negative reactions tends to range from offensive graffiti to arson of businesses. I'm sceptical of your assertion that Jewish people by-and-large don't care about Bailey's promotion of those ideas.

Have to be a pedant here but Prestwich is in Bury, not Salford which it borders with. Broughton is a suburb of Salford. I know that many of the massive Victorian and Edwardian properties around there have been converted in HMOs. When they were built rich and poor lived closer together to access the economy in the time before commuting was practical. Those properties are valuable by virtue of their sheer size and room count but unattractive to home owners that can afford them because of their location. As such, often the only economically viable option for them is to turn them into HMOs which house a lot of people on benefits and low incomes. Prestwich is like any other town with affluent parts and poorer parts but is generally more affluent and an increasingly a desirable place to live.

@Sweet Square

Like it or not but Ferrari has a big audience. Starmer doesn't host a show with him, he goes on as a guest to take questions from the public.

 

[esmufc07]

Yeah so far the Miliband era has been the real breakaway from New Labour. If I had to guess its because

1)There's isn't that many Blairites left in the party(They've all fecked off into jobs privatizing the British economy)

2)People forget just how socially conservative and openly racist New Labour were. It's simply too right wing to go back to(Although Starmer has just started)

3)The 08 crash and everything that followed has killed it as a political project.


Who knows where Starmer Labour will end up but if anyone thinks it's going to just be a more electable 2017 in a nicer suit then they are in for a shock.


I'll be waiting for @Classical Mechanic calls for the resignation of Labour leader considering he hosts a monthly radio show with Nick "If you don't like it here, LEAVE" Ferrari.

Do you see any positives for a potential Starmer government in 2024? (I still don’t think Labour can win in 2024 as it’s too much of a mountain to climb from 2019).

I don’t think he will deviate too much from the 2017 manifesto, he confirmed as much with his pledges during the leadership contest.

I am fairly fed up with politics though. It’s just a cesspit.

 

[saivet]

So no further word on the treatment of black & brown Labour MPs from within the Party, that was leaked months ago?

Late to this thread but absolutely nothing from him. Disappointing as time and time again, these things get swept under the rug.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

To criticize Israel for their handling of Palestinians is not anti-Semitic. To imply that Israel is (partly) to blame for police brutality towards that black communities in the US is ant-Semitic.
That stupid bint posted an article from a well known anti-Semitic. Then on several occasions she was asked to take the post down because parts of it could be interpreted as anti-Semitic, but she refused to do so. Yet people say they don’t understand why she was sacked?! Give over...

Maxine Peake is a "well known anti semitic"? Or do you mean the author of the article?
I'm assuming you don't mean the stupid bint herself.

 

[Rams]

Maxine Peake is a "well known anti semitic"? Or do you mean the author of the article?
I'm assuming you don't mean the stupid bint herself.

Actually have to correct myself, Maxine Peake isn’t an author but it’s not the first time she caused controversy or so I read.