Cancel Culture

It does. Or well, it is a name for people who accuse wrongly others for being racists/sexists in order to further advance their career. Which in turn makes others further pursue this agenda, and might destroy people's careers. It is as poison as discriminating against people for their skin, gender, or religious belief.

Maybe you're not aware of it same as how I am not aware of racism in the first place :)

The thing is you're reducing racism to an individual act, it's not which is why I said you're reducing racism in the first place.
You can't see that, then it's not up to me to make you see it.

As for the race card, i'm well aware of it, and it's ridiculousness.

https://medium.com/the-establishmen...andard-for-playing-the-race-card-4dfee1738f84
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/playing-the-race-card-racism-black-experience
https://www.theeagleonline.com/article/2005/09/race-card-a-gop-myth

There's plenty of scholarly articles & books on the subject as well.
 
It doesn't feel young when I'm talking to you!

I said they aim to produce the results their clientele want. Not that they fiddle individual cases.

But you know that. You're playing games.

What results do their clientele want though? Genuinely puzzled here. Surely expectations/hopes re ancestry will vary massively from person to person?
 
That’s a pity. I was really looking forward to hearing about how 23&Me read each customer’s mind to find out the results they’re looking for, then change their methodology accordingly. Don’t quit now. The night is still young!

As far as i'm aware 23&Me doesn't actually tell you your race, it jus tells you the likelihood of where ancestors are from - nationality wise.

There's no DNA for race.
 
"Playing the race card" is a phrase commonly used to gloss over legitimate instances of racism. These days it is deployed almost exclusively in a racist, white supremacist manner.

Whilst it is possible, in a limited number of situations, for a person to exploit their identified minority racial categorisation to further themselves, such instances are so relatively miniscule when set against the wholesale racial discrimination that exists in society, that it should have no bearing on discussions of genuine social justice.
 
What results do their clientele want though? Genuinely puzzled here. Surely expectations/hopes re ancestry will vary massively from person to person?
It varies who they market to and the methodology varies as a result. You want to hear something? There's a company out there offering to provide you 'scientific' evidence of it! In America it is often people wanting to think they are Native American, in other areas it is people wanting to think they are 'racially pure' white. Their adverts are designed accordingly.

I've always wondered why I'm much darker skinned than most British people, despite having only English and Irish ancestry. If I had three different companies look in to my ancestry I would find three different stupid answers, depending on what their angle is.
 
Absolutely. I’ve never had it done but understand the results are all geographical.

I've got a number of friends who have done it and their results shift slightly quite often, the rationale as I understand it is, that 23&Me's testing accuracy & pool of samples improves over time when more people submit their DNA.
 
Get someone from an uncontacted Amazonian tribe to do a 23 and me it'll tell them they're 2 percent Irish.
 
The thing is you're reducing racism to an individual act, it's not which is why I said you're reducing racism in the first place.
You can't see that, then it's not up to me to make you see it.

As for the race card, i'm well aware of it, and it's ridiculousness.

https://medium.com/the-establishmen...andard-for-playing-the-race-card-4dfee1738f84
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/playing-the-race-card-racism-black-experience
https://www.theeagleonline.com/article/2005/09/race-card-a-gop-myth

There's plenty of scholarly articles & books on the subject as well.
It is not an individual act if it is getting supported by many people. In the case I mentioned, the individual act was supported by the organization that was created to support black researchers on AI. Support and inclusion has gone now to full political agenda that is unfairly advancing the career of a few, and bullying campaigns to anyone who dares to disagree with their leader.

You posted 3 links that are essentially saying that playing the race card is a myth. Unfortunately, I have to strongly disagree with that. The Medium one in particular was awful.
 
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Genetic differences matter in medicine and race (even though the very concept is being denied by some in this thread) can be a helpful proxy

No, the very concept of race is not being denied by people in this thread, but people in the field of genetics. Please, please, please stop and go do a little bit of research, search for an ounce of humility inside yourself and accept that you are wrong.
 
It is not an individual act if it is getting supported by many people. In the case I mentioned, the individual act was supported by the organization that was created to support black researchers on AI. Support and inclusion has gone now to full political agenda that is unfairly advancing the career of a few, and bullying campaigns to anyone who dares to disagree with their leader.

You posted 3 links that are essentially saying that playing the race card is a myth. Unfortunately, I have to strongly disagree with that. The Medium one in particular was awful.

You’re using a specific occurrence and conflating it as being worse than racism.
If it wasn’t so ignorant, it would be funny.

The race card is a myth, im not surprised you think it exists though, your posts have demonstrated your lack of understanding of what racism is.

No need to discuss further on the topic, I have to keep it constructive, and I’m finding that difficult. :)
 
I did the 23 and me thingy.

If I pay USD $100 extra I can unlock the HEALTH section. (haven't done it...)


Get instant access to 85+ reports on Health Predispositions*, Carrier Status*, Wellness and Traits.


Health Predispositions*
Learn how your genetics can influence your risk for certain diseases. 10+ reports

Carrier Status*
If you’re starting a family, find out if you’re a carrier for certain inherited conditions. 40+ reports

Wellness
Learn how your genes play a role in your well-being and lifestyle choices. 5+ reports

*The 23andMe PGS test uses qualitative genotyping to detect select clinically relevant variants in the genomic DNA of adults from saliva for the purpose of reporting and interpreting genetic health risks and reporting carrier status. It is not intended to diagnose any disease. Your ethnicity may affect the relevance of each report and how your genetic health risk results are interpreted.
 
'Your bones are at risk if you do not keep up the payments'.
 
You’re using a specific occurrence and conflating it as being worse than racism.

No, I mentioned one specific instance, I never said that is the only one. It might be because of where I live and what I do that might make me bias (regress to the mean), but it is far from the only one. Oh, and I did not say worse than racism, I said same shit.

If it wasn’t so ignorant, it would be funny.

The race card is a myth, im not surprised you think it exists though, your posts have demonstrated your lack of understanding of what racism is.

If 'race card does not exist' was not so ignorant, it would have been funny. I mean, I can do that too.

No need to discuss further on the topic, I have to keep it constructive, and I’m finding that difficult. :)

Cool!
 
I think it's probably important to point out that these tests aren't scientific and they just make shit up to appease whatever fantasies their target demographic have regarding their ancestry.

sequencing is fine and accurate, the conclusions less so.
i've heard that some of the ancestry-based reconstructions are questionable due to limited pre-existing sample sets. i'm ignorant about the medical odds that they provide, given the general state of human genetics in finding important disease genes, i'm guessing a mix of solid and shaky science.
 
It does. Or well, it is a name for people who accuse wrongly others for being racists/sexists in order to further advance their career. Which in turn makes others further pursue this agenda, and might destroy people's careers. It is as poison as discriminating against people for their skin, gender, or religious belief.

Maybe you're not aware of it same as how I am not aware of racism in the first place :)
Whenever these claims of widespread oppression by PC culture pop up, I find it useful to cross-check them with my everyday experience. It goes like this:

I have witnessed countless instances of casual and open xenophobia & racism in my personal and professional environment. I've witnessed not one instance of that mythical "race card" being played in any working environment I've been to, nor have I been told so by people I know. While there may have been singular instances somewhere, I'm rather sure this experience is by and large generizable.
 
Whenever these claims of widespread oppression by PC culture pop up, I find it useful to cross-check them with my everyday experience. It goes like this:

I have witnessed countless instances of casual and open xenophobia & racism in my personal and professional environment. I've witnessed not one instance of that mythical "race card" being played in any working environment I've been to, nor have I been told so by people I know. While there may have been singular instances somewhere, I'm quite sure this experience is generizable.
Good for you.

I, on the other hand, have experienced both cases of racism, and the totally unmythical "race card".
 
Good for you.
And practically everyone I know a bit better.
I, on the other hand, have experienced both cases of racism, and the totally unmythical "race card".
How much of each? The underlying question being whether we're talking about singular instances or widespread societal problems.
 
And practically everyone I know a bit better.

How much of each? The underlying question being whether we're talking about singular instances or widespread societal problems.
A few of racism card, and more of racism.
 
What is the difference between liberalism and left-wing? In what way identity politics are not part of the left-wing?

Where I live Liberals are right-far right (about where the UK Tory party are) and in the UK they are dead centre (or were when they were a separate party) - which is confusing.
 
"How can a company like 23andme possibly guess at what their customers want to hear, when they only have all information about them in today's digital world?" has to be one of the hottest takes in the desperate attempt of being 'un-woke'. What's next, targeted advertisement is a myth?
 
"How can a company like 23andme possibly guess at what their customers want to hear, when they only have all information about them in today's digital world?" has to be one of the hottest takes in the desperate attempt of being 'un-woke'. What's next, targeted advertisement is a myth?
I don't know about private companies but genetic sequencing has been problematic since the start. The best or worst examples being those native Americans whose DNA was used against their will in order to define them as being "unpure", as not "entirely" native. The inverse being those native Americans whose results have revealed no trace of genetic influence outside of the Americas, which is quite few as you'd guess after considering pre-historic migration patterns.
 
A few of racism card, and more of racism.
So you claim "a few", whatever amount that is.

Further up you described "race card"-style accusations as something that's spreading, and is a "poison" comparable to discrimination against women and minorities. That's a high bar you're setting, meaning we must talk about a pretty big spread.
Or well, it is a name for people who accuse wrongly others for being racists/sexists in order to further advance their career. Which in turn makes others further pursue this agenda, and might destroy people's careers. It is as poison as discriminating against people for their skin, gender, or religious belief.
Again: I'm sure I must have heard of at least a few instances in my social circles, if it was that significant. People getting removed from their position over racism or sexism (no matter if rightly or wrongly) are usually the talk of the town in any working environment.
 
So you claim "a few", whatever amount that is.

More than "a couple", less than "a dozen".

Further up you described "race card"-style accusations as something that's spreading, and is a "poison" comparable to discrimination against women and minorities. That's a high bar you're setting, meaning we must talk about a pretty big spread.

To be totally clear (and to clarify in case I misspoke), I don't think that the phenomenon of people playing racist (or sexist) cards to pursue their own agenda (at times being backed by significant political power) is as bad, dangerous or widespread as the phenomenon of racism. After all, some people might get harmed, some might advance, but the effect is not comparable to that of the racism, especially if we put it on a global scale.

What I meant (and yes, I recognize that I did not write it correctly on my original post), is that for me, the behavior of crying racism (to only pursue your agenda, and potentially harm someone, when there is no racism involved there) is as a scummy behavior as the behavior of racism itself. Essentially, someone who does this in my eyes is hardly better than a racist. Obviously, if we compare the number of racists (and the harm they cause) to the number of people who use racists cards, the ratio is very high, so as a global phenomenon, of course, that the racism is far worse.

Again: I'm sure I must have heard of at least a few instances in my social circles, if it was that significant. People getting removed from their position over racism or sexism (no matter if rightly or wrongly) are usually the talk of the town in any working environment.

I believe you. It probably depends on what and where you work. I happen to be on the extreme side of the spectrum.
 
The thing about Twitter is that it’s full of righteous assholes who demand the most craven of apologies for the most trivial of misdemeanours. Engaging with them is pointless. He’d could strip naked and get some woman to follow him round ringing a bell and chanting “shame” and they’d still say his apology isn’t good enough.

I don’t think that counts as being cancelled though. He’s just been silly/naive in trying to appease those who will never be appeased. It’s only when there are real life consequences in terms of someone’s career or family that I would consider them “cancelled”. Which is thankfully relatively rare.

Having said that, I’m sure it feels like shit to be at the bottom of a pile-on when you’re trying to do the right thing. I always find it ironic that the most vocal online drama queens like to give the impression they’re exquisitely aware of mental health and the trauma of being picked on for being different. Right up until they rustle up a crowd of people with e-pitchforks to bully the hell out of some poor bastard who chose the wrong hashtag.

Yeah I don't know why he bothered. There are too many unreasonable people out there and the internet dials up the sociopathy. I have 'friends' who I block on Facebook because they turn into monsters. Trump is a gold plated dangerous narcissistic racist sob, but take a leaf out of his book. If you are going to post online its sometimes good to make it a one way dialogue and let those with a rebuttal scream into the void.
 
A few of racism card, and more of racism.

Based on your misunderstandings in this thread I doubt it.

The OP post simply brought up not being referenced and questioned if the same would happen to a paper by all white authors. That isn't accusing anyone of explicit racism, certainly isn't "ruining careers", wasn't trying to "cancel" anyone or anything like that.

It simply raises the issue of implict bias (see
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ ) which is real and proven effect. You've gone way over the top in your accusations that are not supported by the facts. Nowhere was anyone trying to ruin job prospects.

Then you have the gall to make the claim that accusations of racism are as bad as racism? Absurd in general but even in your selected narrow sphere of employment it's just false. Devah Pager systematically proved the effect of being black on employment was about equivalent to having a felony on record. Multiple peer reviewed studies repeated her research and supported.

Please find me the peer reviewed research that proves anywhere near a similar effect of alleged but not actual racism on Twitter ruining job prospects and then we can talk.
 
More than "a couple", less than "a dozen".



To be totally clear (and to clarify in case I misspoke), I don't think that the phenomenon of people playing racist (or sexist) cards to pursue their own agenda (at times being backed by significant political power) is as bad, dangerous or widespread as the phenomenon of racism. After all, some people might get harmed, some might advance, but the effect is not comparable to that of the racism, especially if we put it on a global scale.

What I meant (and yes, I recognize that I did not write it correctly on my original post), is that for me, the behavior of crying racism (to only pursue your agenda, and potentially harm someone, when there is no racism involved there) is as a scummy behavior as the behavior of racism itself. Essentially, someone who does this in my eyes is hardly better than a racist. Obviously, if we compare the number of racists (and the harm they cause) to the number of people who use racists cards, the ratio is very high, so as a global phenomenon, of course, that the racism is far worse.



I believe you. It probably depends on what and where you work. I happen to be on the extreme side of the spectrum.
I’ve only just jumped into this thread, but i have seen the “race card” and other cards being played in my workplace (police department). It’s usually used when someone doesn’t get a promotion or special assignment, or have gotten passed over multiple times. A lawsuit is filed claiming they weren’t promoted because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Or it’s used to get rid of someone in upper management they don’t like.
 
Based on your misunderstandings in this thread I doubt it.

The OP post simply brought up not being referenced and questioned if the same would happen to a paper by all white authors. That isn't accusing anyone of explicit racism, certainly isn't "ruining careers", wasn't trying to "cancel" anyone or anything like that.

No, she was not. She said that 'she is tired of her work not getting the credit it deserves', 'that her paper has only 5 citations', and 'would that have happened if the author was a white dude' (hint: yes, it would have happened. Mine and another few thousand papers with white dude authors did not make that lecture. In fact more than 90% of accepted papers in top venues (mine included) did not make that lecture, and more than 99% of arxiv-only papers - to the category that paper belongs considering that it is not peer-reviewed yet did not make that lecture). She literally said that thing would not have happened to white men, and put the #CiteBlackWomen hashtag. Google's head of AI liked the post, S.B. wrote a lengthy post on Facebook about it, N.L. literally wanked over the paper, as did many other prominent dove scholars (who * ironically, did not cite that work too, cause you know, it is an okay unpublished work in a sea of dozens of great works, hundreds of okay published works and thousands of unpublished okay works). It was totally accusing M.R. and J.D. of racism and sexism. Whom obviously had to apologize for a crime that they never did.

When I politely suggested that the paper is not peer-reviewed, and that could have been a reason (I didn't say the frequentist thingy that probability wise, her paper had less 0.1% chance of being cited by virtue of being one of a few thousand unpublished papers in that topic), I got attacked from T.G. for gaslighting, and why I cannot accept that it is racism and #CiteBlackWoman. Her posts got a few hundred likes if I am not mistaken. By the way, did I mentioned that this mistreated black woman is supervised from D.B. (white dude, who was in the paper), one of the most recognizable names in ML. If there was some bias for that paper, it is only positive considering that for 99%+ of people, that is the only recognizable name from the authors. And as everyone knows, people put papers in ArXiv primarily to influence the reviewers (who do not know the names of the authors, but can search the title in google and find if the paper is on ArXiv). There is enough data to suggest that papers in ArXiv do better than those who are not in the reviewing process, precisely cause most of those papers come from big groups with big names, so in this way, the reviewers get a positive bias. She is a privileged person, not discriminated.

Blatant lies and politicization of science.

* One of them I work with (very high in a top-company). She has not answered on the project chat despite specifically tagging her two times for a couple of ideas. Who knows why? Of course, she did not cite that paper on her own two works in GANs, but you know, it is cool being woke.

Oh, this incident would have looked one-off, if it did not came only a couple days after Y.L. essentially had to leave twitter, for the crime of having a different scientific opinion to T.G. about 'the bias in machine learning systems'. We are talking for Y.L whom literally invented the main tool in deep learning. On the other side we have T.G., whom without her Black on AI, would have been a literal nobody (like me), considering that she has only a couple of technical papers published on big venues. But hey, she is apparently one of leading scholars in AI and even made in John Oliver's show.
 
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I believe you. It probably depends on what and where you work. I happen to be on the extreme side of the spectrum.
Just to illustrate, me and my closer circle of friends & relatives have studied, worked, or were regularly engaged in:
numerous academic sectors, numerous public schools (incl. teaching staff), churches, teacher's education, adult education, local sports clubs, the professional musician scene, state administration bureaus, cemetary administration, a law firm, landscape gardening, a private mail delivery firm, bicycle production, music schools, aircraft industries, a trade union, a museum, several development aid NGOs, local pubs & gastronomy, several small IT companies, several larger IT companies & some industries they were rented out to, cultural centers, a homeless shelter, kindergartens, and probably more I can't think of right now.
A good cross section of a typical middle class environment, I'd say. The local stuff is restricted to Northern Germany, several jobs include international cooperation as well. I haven't witnessed or been made aware of "race cards" being a thing anywhere there.

So when a claim goes that much against personal experience, while being about a different place/environment, it comes down to a matter of trust in someone's account and evaluation. But when I read stuff like this...
Honestly, political correctness is the new religion of the ultra-left, and things are getting from bad to worse. I am part of academia and it is soon gonna reach extreme levels when you will need to do research based on political correctness, not on the truth.
...I see typical tropes and buzzwords of the anti-PC hysteria of the right. It's your choice to put your claims in that context, but if you do, people naturally read them in that light.
 
Just to illustrate, me and my closer circle of friends & relatives have studied, worked, or were regularly engaged in:
numerous academic sectors, numerous public schools (incl. teaching staff), churches, teacher's education, adult education, local sports clubs, the professional musician scene, state administration bureaus, cemetary administration, a law firm, landscape gardening, a private mail delivery firm, bicycle production, music schools, aircraft industries, a trade union, a museum, several development aid NGOs, local pubs & gastronomy, several small IT companies, several larger IT companies & some industries they were rented out to, cultural centers, a homeless shelter, kindergartens, and probably more I can't think of right now.
A good cross section of a typical middle class environment, I'd say. The local stuff is restricted to Northern Germany, several jobs include international cooperation as well. I haven't witnessed or been made aware of "race cards" being a thing anywhere there.

So when a claim goes that much against personal experience, while being about a different place/environment, it comes down to a matter of trust in someone's account and evaluation. But when I read stuff like this...

...I see typical tropes and buzzwords of the anti-PC hysteria of the right. It's your choice to put your claims in that context, but if you do, people naturally read them in that light.
That's probably the key. Germany is much much better in that aspect, people have still collectively not lost their brain. I lived in Germany last year (though it was in Munich and did not even see this madness.

Try to live in Silicon Valley for a few months and you'll start questioning your own sanity.
 
Yeah I don't know why he bothered. There are too many unreasonable people out there and the internet dials up the sociopathy. I have 'friends' who I block on Facebook because they turn into monsters. Trump is a gold plated dangerous narcissistic racist sob, but take a leaf out of his book. If you are going to post online its sometimes good to make it a one way dialogue and let those with a rebuttal scream into the void.
Speaking of demanding apologies (coupled with legal threats) and generally threatening others' ability to speak freely, here is a one of the signatories of that shitheaded Harper's letter doing just that:
_87989640_untitled-2.jpg


Put in context: Mcgarry had suggested J.K Rowling "defends abusive misogynist trolls". J.K Rowling had tweeted that an account named "Brian Spanner" was a "good man". "Brian Spanner" has a long history of abusive misogynist tweets.

It's not just woke, liberal-lefty, marxist-millennial, echo-Corbyn-chambers that are trying to stifle this shit. The nasty bigoted fecks with Billions of money, who sign letters demanding to be heard are also doing this shit. In fact everyone is doing this shit - you shout your horrible views and tell others to shut up about their own horrible views. Social media has only ever been a tool of amplification don't mistake it for a logic detector.
 
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Where I live Liberals are right-far right (about where the UK Tory party are) and in the UK they are dead centre (or were when they were a separate party) - which is confusing.

That's interesting, so it's the same than in France and Netherlands. I would have thought that Australia would use a definition cloer to the one used in the US-UK.
 
Is this the new home of the staunch free speech proponents, those who feel like SJWs are attacking their way of life?

Basically the new "PC gone mad" safe space? :lol:
 
Is this the new home of the staunch free speech proponents, those who feel like SJWs are attacking their way of life?

Basically the new "PC gone mad" safe space? :lol:

Does it look like that to you?

Tot up the numbers of the posters with opposing views and it’s pretty much the exact opposite to what you describe.

Last few pages have mainly been a half a dozen people piling on @Revan (with a side row about race as a social construct - again, one vs many)
 
Yes.... But maybe not so safe a space right now :lol:

If you honestly think anywhere on this website is a safe space for SJW bashing/free speech advocates then you’re in for a horrible surprise if you ever spend any time anywhere else online.

I’m sure you’re just taking the piss though. Which is fine. There shouldn’t be any safe spaces on here where people can’t take the piss!
 
If you honestly think anywhere on this website is a safe space for SJW bashing/free speech advocates then you’re in for a horrible surprise if you ever spend any time anywhere else online.

I’m sure you’re just taking the piss though. Which is fine. There shouldn’t be any safe spaces on here where people can’t take the piss!
Thinking back to how annoying it has been having particular discussions on here recently, I find the crying in threads like these somewhat satisfying and hilarious.... It is what it is.