This is the problem you can't discuss any potential mitigating factors, red cards, no pre season etc, they are just dismissed as 'excuses' because they weaken their arguments against the manager and 'being right'.
Being "right" about a player or manager is not more important than winning games
- Thread starter GazTheLegend
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I agree with most of that, especially the Rashford bit, but in fairness, you're again talking about a select few idiots making their voices heard in there. it's an unfortunate reality of both here and the real world that the most extreme on both sides of the equation are the ones who make themselves heard the loudest.
I believe most people who don't think Ole is the man to bring us forward still loved that win last night, just like most people who do think he's the man to lead us forward can appreciate why others don't have that viewpoint, unfortunately both sides have Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime with extreme "NO I'M RIGHT AND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS THAT'S THE END OF IT!" opinions.
It was kind of shocking to me how some of our supporters were so quick to pounce on those couple of defeats.
After 30 odd games of good performances you'd think they'd have earned some benefit of the doubt.
I really wouldn't be be acting like everything is fine just after last night's win, even relegation teams can have good results against big clubs throughout a season, it's a marathon and not a sprint, also the last time we beat psg away and acted like the old united was back and ole was the next fergie we ended up going on a horrible run until the end of that season which mimicked the type of form you would expect from a relegation battling side.
These posts are an anomaly, though. I've just lost patience with a few posters. Particularly the ones who attack me when I haven't done shit. I was accused of gloating for instance, but if you look at my post history from yesterday you wont find anything of the sort, despite it being one of the best nights as a United supporter in a long time.
But I kind of agree. Even as an anomaly these posts are no good. Sorry about that. I'll leave the "counter-attacks" to posters who are more patient than me.
I mean good is subjective.
We were sincilating straight after the restart but the level did drop and we limped over the line. I've not seen anyone (I'm sure there are some) that claim we didn't perform well post lockdown, however for me and many others it's the performances before lockdown mixed with our often directionless gameplay in certain matches that make us question the manager.
We were fecking awful until January, I mean relegation form bad around Xmas. No one can convince me that their support for the manager at that point wasn't based on emotion.
The truth lies somewhere between the both sides, and both sides can make compelling arguments. Lockdown was an absolute blessing for us last year and without it I highly doubt we get top 4. The first few games this season were too close to the absolute shit show of the first half of last season where Ole was extremely lucky not to get sacked.
Last night was tremendous and the first time I can honestly say Ole tactically outsmarted a top club. I don’t put too much emphasis on our performances in big games last year because we played a very counter attacking style, last night however we stood toe to toe with last years runners up and that is promising.
I call bullshit:
The advantage of being "Ole in" is that you can actually enjoy the wins, unlike some other posters
Jokes aside: it's super frustrating to constantly having to read all the negativity in here. Especially when it's so unwarranted. We did really well under the circumstances last year. We have a likeable manager who also happens to be a United legend. The team is generally moving in the right direction. A month of bad football follows, and then more than than 1/3 of the supporters want him sacked.
I've never been a fan of people going "I told you so", but in this particular case I enjoy seeing it. What the "haters" get on good days is only a fraction of the negativity the rest of us have to endure on a daily basis in here.
TLDR; you go, @sammsky1 !
Saying "I don't gloat", and then claiming you enjoy wins when others can't (Which is utter bullshit by the way) doesn't help. It's presumptuous rubbish, it's pretty offensive and it's just stated to wind others up.
Saying "I normally say I told you so" before pretty much gloating, and then terming anyone who thinks otherwise as "haters" in your own words is literally contributing to the problem.
Then you made it worse by endorsing a known wum on the forum.
Agreed.
The biggest problem im seeing is the complete inability from both sides to have an objective view. It’s as if they think if they’re Ole in they must never say anything critical of him and vice versa if they’re Ole out they can never give praise and it’s the same for certain players.
It’s okay to have an overall view or stance on something whilst remaining objective as the games come and go and you don’t need to create a new thread about your stance or view after every fecking match,
you’re not that important. The worse I saw was someone make a thread eight minutes into the Newcastle game saying our season was over
You're shouting into the wind.
95% of fans and posters are happy when we win and angry when we lose. They see the good and bad about the players and managers and then change their mind constantly.
Unfortunately for the rest of us there's a bunch (I'm assuming youngsters) who decide to be dogmatic about it and identify as for or against a manager. It's tedious and adds nothing to the debate and they should be treated as trolls and thread banned.
This should go without saying but there do seem to be people who prefer us to lose so they can then feel justified in their opinions.
I personally remain unconvinced by Ole and it will take more than one great performance, because that was a great team performance against a good attacking team, to change my mind. However it was really enjoyable to watch us last night and actually feel like we were trying to win the game and overall were the better team. If we can build on this, that will be fantastic but I feel it's better to be less reactionary and come back to this question in 5-10 games time.
I will say what doesn't help is after every match you'll see a load of 'I told you so' type threads (in a way this has turned into one as well, although the message is important) and you'll see the poll on should we sack Ole shift dramatically up or down. That said it's the same for all clubs, just look at how Spurs fans were at half time against WHUM ('we're going to win the league') versus full time ('same old spurs').
I personally remain unconvinced by Ole and it will take more than one great performance, because that was a great team performance against a good attacking team, to change my mind. However it was really enjoyable to watch us last night and actually feel like we were trying to win the game and overall were the better team. If we can build on this, that will be fantastic but I feel it's better to be less reactionary and come back to this question in 5-10 games time.
I will say what doesn't help is after every match you'll see a load of 'I told you so' type threads (in a way this has turned into one as well, although the message is important) and you'll see the poll on should we sack Ole shift dramatically up or down. That said it's the same for all clubs, just look at how Spurs fans were at half time against WHUM ('we're going to win the league') versus full time ('same old spurs').
Bullshit
I've already called him on it. It took less than a minute to pull up one of his posts!
This is where I get a bit lost though. On a certain level I can get what you are saying. You don't like being told "I told you so" by people, especially when you don't even think they're right. You find it irritating. Which in most situations is an understandable response.
But how does proclaiming your manager a god and saying he's great produce a toxic environment? Surely the more support the manager and players get the better. Whether you agree with them or not we need these types of supporters. We need supporters who always stick with the players and manager when they are having a tough time. It helps the manager and players.
I'm generally quite an analytical person and try to stay grounded in evidence as best I can but I never find myself getting annoyed by people for being happy and loving the players or the manager. Some of the stick they get these days is ridiculous. Months of good performance forgotten in 90 minutes.
The next two words I wrote are literally: "Jokes aside". Lighten up!
Even among the "Ole out" crowd I refuse to believe that there's a significant amount(if any) that actually wants us to lose. And if they exist, then I frankly feel sorry for them.
Endorsing
That was also tongue-in cheek, btw. I hardly know who he is. I just noticed the thread he made yesterday and kind of found it amusing because Ole has been given an undeservedly large amount of shit in here. The fact that 1/3 wanted him sacked(and still do?) is mind-blowing to me.
What?
I've just seen. The fact he tags the biggest troll on the forum should be enough for most posters to realise the shit he's spouting.
I will say and apologises I'm going to use your post as an example. If people called out who these people were rather than making generic statements this place would be less toxic for most of us.
I'm seeing loads of strawman arguments lately where it's not even people arguing a point but making one up to attack the other side.
People think they're being less aggressive by anonymity but the passive aggressiveness just makes it all worse.
Pretty straight forward and clear point, what is it you're struggling with?
It's not a joke though, and we all know it. You knew it was a toxic environment and tried to wind other posters up by claiming you can enjoy it more which is utter tripe.
Moreover, you then went on to gloat. So there's no need to try and claim you weren't gloating, or pointing toward a division, or trying to wind others up.
No, but you insinuated those enjoying the win can't enjoy it as much. Even if it was a "joke", it's a shit one intended to wind others up.
Yes, endorsing a notorious wum. You literally said "go, go" to him. I don't really care for the rationale because you can do what you like. But then don't come here and claim you haven't been contributing to division or toxicity when I pulled up a post from last night that shows you literally did this by gloating, endorsing a wum and "joking" that you can enjoy the win more. You also classed the other side as "haters" which is a mindless, ignorant comment on top.Endorsing
That was also tongue-in cheek, btw. I hardly know who he is. I just noted the thread he made yesterday and kind of found it amusing because Ole has been given an undeservedly large amount of shit in here. The fact that 1/3 wanted him sacked(and still do?) is mind-blowing to me.
Anyone using terms like " Ole haters" (or "Ole worshipers" if they're on the other side) are contributors to trying to create some stupid civil war. It's what you'd expect from an insecure man trying to get in a dick measuring contest or some 10 year old.
I think it goes both ways. For every person moaning there is another desperate to throw a win in people's faces. Can't we just enjoy a fecking win.
It doesn't prove ole is going to be a success just like the 6 1 to spurs proved nothing.
Second sentence is relatable. Would add that I’m definitely open to possibility that I’m dead wrong about Ole. So last night’s performance is the first step to me holding my hand up and saying I’m an idiot (not for the first time - it gets easier with practice!)
Appreciate the point you're trying to make but you'd probably have to call out every other post. Way to deal with it is just to engage with people who offer up some evidence or thought for their opinions and ignore the match day threads at all costs!
He beat PSG before. He beat City and Chelsea several times last season. Barring a late Rojo error we'd be adding Liverpool last season to that list. He's outdone the good teams tactically on numerous occasions.
Err, who said I was annoyed? I didn't even post in those threads last night! All I posted was that it was a great win, I was delighted etc.
I'm merely expressing an opinion in here based on what the op said.
I think you are misinterpreting my thoughts in here as me actually giving a toss what those morons I've been talking about think. You know why, because they're fecking morons!
In the stadium sure but we're not in the stadium. Can you not see the difference and why a forum is more about discussion than support?
When i joined the atmosphere on here was still largely negative but no one really cared that much because it was part of the discussion and people knew we weren't perfect even if we were winning. People would debate the points and discuss tactics, you don't get that now because the polar opposite to the criticism is crying about negativity and support.
Comprehension clearly isn't your strong point. I addressed the games against bug clubs last year in the following sentence to the one you bolded. So again, what is it you disagree with? That you think he tactically outsmarted a couple of managers last year? I disagree and stated my reasons why in my original post.
If it stopped at enjoying a win it would be ok but the moaning after even that is strong on here.
This place only really comes alive after a loss, check out the post match thread page counts to wins and dropped points. I remember the moaning about how late in the game we were scoring goals in weekly(!) 4-0 wins under Jose.
Personally, I think its Jose fans pissed he got sacked and they'd be against whoever replaced him let alone a Manager like Ole with a relatively underwhelming CV.
Fair enough. I don't spend enough time on here these days to know exactly where people stand on things and how they post.
So when I see you calling lads a disgrace and morons for gloating about a good win it just strikes as odd. But as you say, you may well have your reasons. I don't want to generalise too much or put words in your mouth. And I don't want to make assumptions about the posts you are responding to without seeing them myself.
I still mean what I say in a general sense though even though it may not actually relate to you personally. How anyone gets annoyed by people being staunchly behind the manager I'll never understand. And there definitely seems to be a good few people on here who are like that.
No one is. Just like it wasn't the end of the world and proof we should sack Ole because we lost just our 4th game in 30 or whatever against Spurs with 10 men.
Take a look in the Ole out thread from last night if you want to know what he's talking about.
I'm definitely not saying we have to blindly support the team and never criticise anyone. I am saying that people seem to skew wildly towards the negative these days. I think social media, lockdowns, the media and numerous other factors have caused people to kinda lose sense of perspective and reality and to attack a lot more viciously than they would ever do in real life. Perspective has essentially disappeared and been replaced by angry reactionism.
And without stadiums, forums and social media is where fan opinion is communicated and gauged. Football communication like just about everything has moved online. Our form since February should have been worth a lot of benefit of the doubt. Especially considering the mitigating circumstances of preseason.
But with the help of a couple of dodgy journalists enough of our supports turned after 2 losses that the manager was considered on the point of being sacked. 4 days before he set a new club record for away wins in a row and only a few weeks after he achieved his target of getting us back into the champions league. How does that make any sense????
It obviously was, though
But it's good to know that you know me more than I know myself and that the words I write can be interpreted as the literal opposite whenever it suits your agenda.Like I said: I hardly know who he is and it was tongue-in-cheek. I didn't know that he was a troll! In fact, I don't think I recognize any of the posters in this thread apart from Pogue, and that is only because he's active in the General Forum.
I've already stated many aspects of your posts that point to toxicity and division, regardless of if the first bit was a joke or not.It obviously was, though
Like I said: I hardly know who he is and it was tongue-in-cheek. I didn't know that he was a troll! In fact, I don't think I recognize any of the posters in this thread apart from Pogue, and that is only because he's active in the General Forum.
Ignorant mentioning of notorious wums, calling others haters, "joking" you can enjoy the wins more, and also gloating (when you claimed here you don't do this).
Take your pick, you're certainly deserving of whatever rebuttles you've received. We can leave it there.
A lot of the worst culprits were just as bad about Jose in his final days as I recall. I think that they just revel in misery to be honest!
If everyone is telling you that you come across as smug and condescending, you are probably being smug and condescending. Just because you aren't aware of it yourself doesn't mean it's not happening.It obviously was, though
Like I said: I hardly know who he is and it was tongue-in-cheek. I didn't know that he was a troll! In fact, I don't think I recognize any of the posters in this thread apart from Pogue, and that is only because he's active in the General Forum.
You point to 3 things: 2 jokes and one particular word: "haters". Did you notice the quotation marks? Sometimes it's tiresome to write "The Ole Out Crowd". I specifically added quotation marks because I know that people aren't hating on him literally.
Its good to know how little it takes to set certain posters off. Perhaps I should start to remember the names of posters.
Why do have to categorise any of the supportes, let alone into In and Out camps?
Multiple people have pointed out your hypocrisy and yet you're digging your heels in over it.
Spouting a bunch of divisive dribble that will only wind posters up doesn't get masked up by "haha only joking".
And putting haters in speech marks, doesn't mask what you're trying to do either. You can just post normally without trying to wind others up, and also you went on to actually gloat about winning over those who might doubt Ole. So yeah, you literally did everything you claim you didn't.
This
Whether you want to sack him or not is binary. There are grey areas of course, such as: "I don't want to sack him, but I'm also not satisfied if I'm being honest". I personally disagree strongly with anyone who wants Ole sacked, regardless of how extreme their stance is. Thus it's useful to refer to people who want him out as "Ole out". Because it's precisely that point I disagree with.
I don't really have anything against "Ole out" posters, provided they aren't cnuts. People have different opinions and that is fine. I will say that the general atmosphere coming from this "camp"(see the quotation marks please. English is not my first language) is very toxic and it has made me consider not coming into the Football Forum anymore.