Poor bloke. Wish him a speedy recovery.
Jose Mourinho | Spurs manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
@windco
So you are saying Mourinho had absolutely no interest or influence in - Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Pogba, crying about craving Maguire before the next manager wanted him, wanting perisic & Willian, buying Nemanja Matic as our CDM starter
, buying Fred - a player that some are half half about, replacing Rashford and Martial's position directly with Alexis Sanchez instead of playing him at RW and on an absolute crazy contract, effing Lee Grant on contract for absolutely nothing, Mkhitaryan who was a decent player who he exchanged for Sanchez as another LW, using Fellaini as one of his main tactical players.
Like let me guess Jose Mourinho had nothing to do with this and was the guy who really understands Manchester United? I thought our first season with him was much better with winning the Europa league and league cup rather than his second season when he had much more of an imprint at the club - watching Zlatan play with Mkhitaryan, Pogba and a mix of LVG's tenure players he had to utelise like Martial, Blind, Herrera, Rashford was better than watching Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Bailly, Faulty Fred, Sanchez all the next season with alot of the previous season players being shunned out or sold.
It's not that success is not important to me but I dont see why with our history we should be the Real Madrid of England more than the Barcelona. Why should we value instant short term success that is quick to die as it was to build, rather than a type of quality based style of football for the youngest of players that we ingrain in our football like a philosophy to make us more successful? That's why people still mention Jose's appointment as a very questionable decision after Van Gaal by Woodward and even the fans who were dribbling out for Jose - both might have been shit or decent to some fans but one was a clear Barcelona type manager and one was Real Madrid's type that we hired one after another.
Then you look at Ole - I'm not the biggest fan of his football but I enjoy it more than Mourinho's simply due to the type of player he uses because he deems it suited to Manchester Uniteds historic style - Bruno, a forward line of 4 strikers for the first time that included Rashford Martial Greenwood & Cavani (rather than sticking to just Lukaku and chucking everyone out just on the sides of the first team), Van de Beek, improving players like Fred, Mctomminay, Shaw and Lindelof compared to his previous manager rather than just chucking them under a bus, going away from the fellaini & Lukaku football, signing players like Telles who are attacking fullbacks whilst we already have defensive fullbacks already in the squad.
Fair enough you think jose would have done better in his third season but he had turned his head directly against United as a club by looking at himself as the different guy and the better guy than the club as a whole - something none of our managers ever did. If you regard that as love for United as you said then so be it.
So you are saying Mourinho had absolutely no interest or influence in - Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Pogba, crying about craving Maguire before the next manager wanted him, wanting perisic & Willian, buying Nemanja Matic as our CDM starter
, buying Fred - a player that some are half half about, replacing Rashford and Martial's position directly with Alexis Sanchez instead of playing him at RW and on an absolute crazy contract, effing Lee Grant on contract for absolutely nothing, Mkhitaryan who was a decent player who he exchanged for Sanchez as another LW, using Fellaini as one of his main tactical players.Like let me guess Jose Mourinho had nothing to do with this and was the guy who really understands Manchester United? I thought our first season with him was much better with winning the Europa league and league cup rather than his second season when he had much more of an imprint at the club - watching Zlatan play with Mkhitaryan, Pogba and a mix of LVG's tenure players he had to utelise like Martial, Blind, Herrera, Rashford was better than watching Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Bailly, Faulty Fred, Sanchez all the next season with alot of the previous season players being shunned out or sold.
It's not that success is not important to me but I dont see why with our history we should be the Real Madrid of England more than the Barcelona. Why should we value instant short term success that is quick to die as it was to build, rather than a type of quality based style of football for the youngest of players that we ingrain in our football like a philosophy to make us more successful? That's why people still mention Jose's appointment as a very questionable decision after Van Gaal by Woodward and even the fans who were dribbling out for Jose - both might have been shit or decent to some fans but one was a clear Barcelona type manager and one was Real Madrid's type that we hired one after another.
Then you look at Ole - I'm not the biggest fan of his football but I enjoy it more than Mourinho's simply due to the type of player he uses because he deems it suited to Manchester Uniteds historic style - Bruno, a forward line of 4 strikers for the first time that included Rashford Martial Greenwood & Cavani (rather than sticking to just Lukaku and chucking everyone out just on the sides of the first team), Van de Beek, improving players like Fred, Mctomminay, Shaw and Lindelof compared to his previous manager rather than just chucking them under a bus, going away from the fellaini & Lukaku football, signing players like Telles who are attacking fullbacks whilst we already have defensive fullbacks already in the squad.
Fair enough you think jose would have done better in his third season but he had turned his head directly against United as a club by looking at himself as the different guy and the better guy than the club as a whole - something none of our managers ever did. If you regard that as love for United as you said then so be it.
I think Zlatan and Matic was the only first choice target he got , the rest wasn't.@windco
So you are saying Mourinho had absolutely no interest or influence in - Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Pogba, crying about craving Maguire before the next manager wanted him, wanting perisic & Willian, buying Nemanja Matic as our CDM starter
Like let me guess Jose Mourinho had nothing to do with this and was the guy who really understands Manchester United? I thought our first season with him was much better with winning the Europa league and league cup rather than his second season when he had much more of an imprint at the club - watching Zlatan play with Mkhitaryan, Pogba and a mix of LVG's tenure players he had to utelise like Martial, Blind, Herrera, Rashford was better than watching Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Bailly, Faulty Fred, Sanchez all the next season with alot of the previous season players being shunned out or sold.
It's not that success is not important to me but I dont see why with our history we should be the Real Madrid of England more than the Barcelona. Why should we value instant short term success that is quick to die as it was to build, rather than a type of quality based style of football for the youngest of players that we ingrain in our football like a philosophy to make us more successful? That's why people still mention Jose's appointment as a very questionable decision after Van Gaal by Woodward and even the fans who were dribbling out for Jose - both might have been shit or decent to some fans but one was a clear Barcelona type manager and one was Real Madrid's type that we hired one after another.
Then you look at Ole - I'm not the biggest fan of his football but I enjoy it more than Mourinho's simply due to the type of player he uses because he deems it suited to Manchester Uniteds historic style - Bruno, a forward line of 4 strikers for the first time that included Rashford Martial Greenwood & Cavani (rather than sticking to just Lukaku and chucking everyone out just on the sides of the first team), Van de Beek, improving players like Fred, Mctomminay, Shaw and Lindelof compared to his previous manager rather than just chucking them under a bus, going away from the fellaini & Lukaku football, signing players like Telles who are attacking fullbacks whilst we already have defensive fullbacks already in the squad.
Fair enough you think jose would have done better in his third season but he had turned his head directly against United as a club by looking at himself as the different guy and the better guy than the club as a whole - something none of our managers ever did. If you regard that as love for United as you said then so be it.
Real Madrid is more successful than Barcelona for the last decade so yeah you can't say that their way of running the club didn't bring success.
Did you really think Ole has improved our players ? Let's say he really is , then why our results getting worse instead ? We are trophyless since Jose left and finished 2x with only 66 points , the only answer for that question is because Jose is better manager cause even with improved players and improved style according to you , Ole still can't outdo him , let's not forget the same man just pumped us 6-1 with his tactic & style. Infact , remember our winning run under Ole when he first made interim ? That was Jose's tactic, style and coaching but without players downtooled him, it's impossible for ole to implement his style ( what's his style anyway ) as fast as that.
Like i said before his ambition is bigger than the rest in the club, bigger than players cause he demands more from the players and they failed to match his expectation, bigger than the board because an ambitious board is never going to hire Ole in first place, guy is definitely going back to Norway herding sheep if we sack him now , no club in top 5 league going to hire him.
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Yeah, it was weird. I've never seen Salah called to account for some of his truly egregious diving.
On the other hand, I don't like the fact that Jose has forced Kane to become less honest on the pitch. Bar a brief spell a few years back, Kane hasn't been known as a particularly prolific diver. And in many cases, he's proven, in the past, to be detrimentally honest. A good example is when he took a straight red card boot in the head from Bruno Alves then leapt immediately back up and tried to play the advantage despite being near the halfway line at the time (the ref didn't allow it and stopped the play to give the straight red but Kane tried).
His recent trend of flopping easily is clearly down to Jose's influence. Unfortunately, if your manager tells you to cheat, you've got to cheat (cf the response to Di Canio when he caught that ball against Everton). The sport is so hypercompetitive that sportsmanship is severely discouraged.
Edit: For what it's worth, though, I thought Kane was well inside the standard operating parameters of the modern game in buying that foul from Lallana. He merely anticipated contact and the contact that came was strong enough, including an arm across the face, to justify going down. It's tragic that football be like that but it do.
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Or, perhaps, maybe due to the large volume of penalties VAR gives for simply breathing the air around the opposition player within a 1 meter radius?
Kane’s been throwing himself around along time before he was managed by Mourinho. Go back and watch the him in the last World Cup and he was constantly trying to manipulate contact at set pieces.
I disagree that he was creating fouls out of nothing and I've seen all our matches in full at least twice. Kane didn't need to buy a thing at the world cup: he was being thrown around like a ragdoll.
I'm sure he didn't put up much resistance but he shouldn't have to. Each of his penalties had enough contact behind them to have warranted the foul awards whether he hit the floor or not. There were so many fouls on him that were absolutely sufficient to impede him.
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That's certainly a factor. VAR has caused a massive general uptick in awards.
Yup. Agreed. For a big strong bloke he goes down at the brush of a feather.
But you’re an England/Harry Kane fan so I wouldn’t expect you to show much objectivity on the subject. But he was throwing himself to ground every chance he could get at set pieces.
Just because Salah is a diving cheat does not absolve others. But tbf most modern players throw themselves to the ground at the first opportunity in the opposition box, Kane is no different.
As for Jose, he is doing well, has Spurs in third, they have scored the most goals in the competition, but he has played a lot of easy fixtures. Spurs defence is ok as well, feel there is room for improvement in defence, Arsenal have the best defence in the league atm, followed by Wolves and Man city, with a bunch of teams in third including Spurs.
The run up to Christmas has Spurs going up against a lot stiffer competition, I expect them to slide out of the top 4 over the next couple of months. After this next game against WBA they have Man C, Chelsea, Arsenal, Palace, Liverpool, Leicester, Wolves. If they are still in 2nd or 3rd after that run, then maybe you can start talking title contenders, I think they will more likely be around 5th/6th after those games.
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Just saw this, basically everything is spot-on. In a way, he values and know full well Pogba's abilities.
"Don't attract pressure. There will be lots of spaces to kill them." Damn!
Grinded out a win and top of the table.
Jose title challenge season 2 mode under way I think.
Jose title challenge season 2 mode under way I think.
It's all fun and games whilst Spurs are on a good run of form and winning. Wait until they hit a blip and then it'll just be a shit-flinging fest.
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Its not just that. Its the start of his first and second season with us all over again. In the first we played great, attacking football but couldn't score. Literally dominated games but missed chance after chance. We actually took them chances in his second season but as the games drew in he started holding back more and more. He relied on the same attackers to carry the entire atrack as the players behind them sat a little bit further back, the FBs overlaps became less and less. All of a sudden we werent creating as many chances and set up to stop sides and nick a goal to get us through. All of a sudden we were being lauded (and criticised) for winning bland, difficult games that turned into battles to win.
Its exactly how Spurs season is panning out.
Yeah, I remember we started similarly with several 4-0s at the beginning of the 17/18 season then we lost to City and the Jose meltdown started. We become incredibly negative and the whole place got more and more toxic. Then the Sevilla game came and it got worse and worse from there.
What I found amazing about this analysis was where he talks about Pogba coming on and playing diagonal balls to Rashford making runs.
That’s literally what happened in that game. Pogba played a brilliant diagonal ball to put Rashford in down the left but Rashford let the ball get away from him slightly and the last man managed to recover. It was just how jose described.
You guys keep saying "he will be negative , he will turn toxic" without realizing what makes him toxic in first place and why he became toxic in the end with United. It's because the board / Woodward back the players ( such as Pogba, Martial and Rashford ) over him. At United he had players who threw tantrum just because of shirt number, at United he had players who scream "attack, attack , attack , united way" on the media which literally undermine his position as manager , so many players cried when he publicly criticized them instead of trying to prove him wrong on the pitch, he also has the board who thought they know about football better than him, i am pretty sure he didn't want to start Pogba at all in his last season let alone giving him captaincy but Ed Woodward force him to . All those thing doesn't exist at Spurs ,did you watch the spurs documentary and see how Levy literally adored him ? At Spurs he is their most important person, he has mature and professional players who only focused at football , players who trust and bought into his ideas , he made Kane and Son tracking back and playing like CB/Fullback but none of them cried to the media because of it. These players has been trophyless for so long so they won't have inflated ego to class with him and if he had a beef with players he can simply get rid of them no problem without anyone questioning ( example, Dele Alli and Danny Rose ) which is why i am very sure he won't turn toxic there.
I prefer to have this kind of manager than the one who grinning from ear to ear when losing.
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I was wondering if I had been watching a different Harry Kane after reading some of the posts in here. At no point has Kane been any more 'honest' than any other forward in modern football. He dives just as much as the rest of them, and to be honest, it's necessary with the abysmal standard of refereeing where things don't get called unless the player ends up on the floor.
Yeah, the Sterling one in the build up to Liverpool’s goal today was a perfect example of that. It was a blatant foul but because he tried to stay up he doesn’t get it.
Someone should construct a Venn diagram to see if there's any overlap between the people who want to get rid of Ole and the people who can't stand how much Mourinho hates to lose.
Clearly rewriting history. Refs don't give anything until player rolls on the ground. Which is why most players need to make a meal of things.
And on the topic of coaches, Spurs under Poch mastered the art of dirty fouls. They would lay it in, in so many games. The infamous Chelsea game after Spurs threw away the title was one of the worst. And to make matters worse, when Spurs were meeting Chelsea more than a year later, Poch called out his players to show same passion.
Great post.@windco
So you are saying Mourinho had absolutely no interest or influence in - Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Pogba, crying about craving Maguire before the next manager wanted him, wanting perisic & Willian, buying Nemanja Matic as our CDM starter
Like let me guess Jose Mourinho had nothing to do with this and was the guy who really understands Manchester United? I thought our first season with him was much better with winning the Europa league and league cup rather than his second season when he had much more of an imprint at the club - watching Zlatan play with Mkhitaryan, Pogba and a mix of LVG's tenure players he had to utelise like Martial, Blind, Herrera, Rashford was better than watching Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Bailly, Faulty Fred, Sanchez all the next season with alot of the previous season players being shunned out or sold.
It's not that success is not important to me but I dont see why with our history we should be the Real Madrid of England more than the Barcelona. Why should we value instant short term success that is quick to die as it was to build, rather than a type of quality based style of football for the youngest of players that we ingrain in our football like a philosophy to make us more successful? That's why people still mention Jose's appointment as a very questionable decision after Van Gaal by Woodward and even the fans who were dribbling out for Jose - both might have been shit or decent to some fans but one was a clear Barcelona type manager and one was Real Madrid's type that we hired one after another.
Then you look at Ole - I'm not the biggest fan of his football but I enjoy it more than Mourinho's simply due to the type of player he uses because he deems it suited to Manchester Uniteds historic style - Bruno, a forward line of 4 strikers for the first time that included Rashford Martial Greenwood & Cavani (rather than sticking to just Lukaku and chucking everyone out just on the sides of the first team), Van de Beek, improving players like Fred, Mctomminay, Shaw and Lindelof compared to his previous manager rather than just chucking them under a bus, going away from the fellaini & Lukaku football, signing players like Telles who are attacking fullbacks whilst we already have defensive fullbacks already in the squad.
Fair enough you think jose would have done better in his third season but he had turned his head directly against United as a club by looking at himself as the different guy and the better guy than the club as a whole - something none of our managers ever did. If you regard that as love for United as you said then so be it.
Of course the board backed Martial, Raahford and Pogba over him! If it wasnt for Jose they wouldnt have to do it in the first place.
Spurs arent special. You still have this we are on to something new mentality but the players behind Son and Kane will only sacrifice their attacking instincts for so long before mental fatigue kicks in and Jose starts to buck from it.
What are you on about? Ed Woodward forcing Pogba captaincy on Mourinho? He captained two games for us his entire time here, once against some random team in the EFL in the 17/18 season and another against Young Boys in the CL. Saying we should attack is not undermining him either when the entire crowd at times was screaming the same thing. On the Spurs stuff, did you see anything that put anyone at Spurs in a negative light? Of course not, why would they show anything confrontational or negative? It's made to improve the PR around the club (which it did). Kane and Son were also already some of the hardest working forwards in the league before he came. Woodward was also completely right to not allow Mourinho to get rid of Martial and Rashford and arguably Pogba too. If you ask Levy if he'd also sell 3 of their best players for players like Willian and Perisic he would also refuse. Mourinho was also allowed to get rid of many players like Blind, Rooney, Depay, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin off the top of my head, and rightfully so. Why did you choose to cherry pick your examples and make up crap like Woodward forcing him to captain Pogba?
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We are the league's 2nd high scorers, I don't see this "negative football" at all, Poch was more sideways and negative at times.
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Again, in his second season here we were scoring 4 goals a game for like 6 weeks straight then Jose started criticising Martial for his defensive capabilities then we started sitting back after getting a goal. It was a constant criticism of him, we would play well until we scored then surrender the flow of the game.
You can check my posts on here, I constantly gave Jose the benfit of the doubt and I was saying he could do very well with you lot when he got the job but I just see these signs under some flashing, bright neon lights.
But thats how it starts. Since the 3-3 you have won 3 league games on the bounce by 1 goal and have been underwhelming in all 3. You have definitely sacrificed attacking intent since that game.
Again, in his second season here we were scoring 4 goals a game for like 6 weeks straight then Jose started criticising Martial for his defensive capabilities then we started sitting back after getting a goal. It was a constant criticism of him, we would play well until we scored then surrender the flow of the game.
You can check my posts on here, I constantly gave Jose the benfit of the doubt and I was saying he could do very well with you lot when he got the job but I just see these signs under some flashing, bright neon lights.
We are winning right now, winning games we would have previously drawn or lost. There aren't many teams that go through a whole season playing scintillating football. I doubt Son or Kane will worry much as long as we keep getting results. You cant expect Spurs fans to simply say "well hes going to fail at some point", if you get Poch we could simply say "just wait till the players get tired of the training and down tools on him".
If José finds peak José again, they'll win the league, I think.
Only think stopping him is that he seems to have lost peak José.
It's kinda confusing how defensive he goes against weaker teams. Doesn't seem to trust players.
Fairly certain you won numerous games you should have lost under Pochettino in the calendar year 2018 and you were also excellent at grinding out results in the year who clung onto our coat-tails in Conte's title season so not sure why it's being made out to be some new thing at Spurs.
The thing with Mou is he will go all out for results now which mean you actually have to get the results now to fully justify his appointment. The shit you'll be put through once his cycle bottoms out (which it will, even his first Chelsea team hit a pretty grim bottom level) you have to win one of the big one's.
In my opinion, José is a significantly better manager and coach than Ole is.
But the thing is that the club and its players have to buy in to his methods.
Methods which have been highly successful at every club he has been at.
And if that doesn't happen, then the outcome is not good.
What he has done at Tottenham is clear to see.
Defensively well organised.
Difficult to beat.
And every player having to produce 8/10 performances on a consistent basis.
Initially that happened at OT (81 points year 2), but as soon as a number of players who had not bought in to his methods and were dropped as a result, there was disharmony.
So, providing you stick with his methods, you will be successful.
If not, we know what happens.
Watched the game this morning, they were a better version of his United side. Obviously some outstanding talent on that Spurs team and easily one of if not the best all-round striker in the league. This mornings game was pretty ropey until the last 10 mins which I fell asleep but saw the goal this morning which looked like one of those "keep going and going and going and going until you get one" goals. A trait that has stone complete gone at our club. Players. Not coaching.
This could be said for any manager though, the cycles nearly always comes to an end? The 2018 season are form in the last 5 games was shocking, from what I remember we were out preforming you up till the last third of the season, then the wheels came off.
His second season is always his best, no surprise Spurs are doing ok. But it’s usually this season or bust, time and time again over the last 20 years of Jose‘ career the third season onwards is always a downward spiral.
He’ll fiz out and so will his players, the only question is can he get a trophy before it goes tits up?
I wonder if we’ll see the old contract extension after Christmas then next season ‘grumpy’ Jose appears after not getting his summer targets. Can read him like a book.
He’ll fiz out and so will his players, the only question is can he get a trophy before it goes tits up?
I wonder if we’ll see the old contract extension after Christmas then next season ‘grumpy’ Jose appears after not getting his summer targets. Can read him like a book.
Yeah but the whole sell with Jose is that he wins, he doesn't think about bigger pictures etc so you can't really say "he lost but...." like you can with a Pochettino or a 2015-2018 Klopp or even Lampard (even if he flops in terms of getting us back challenging he will leave an excellent squad and structure for someone that can). I think if you're still close to the top after your upcoming run there's going to be a lot more pressure on Jose and the team to deliver the title than you think, because he will literally put all his eggs in that basket no matter what the trade off is (for us in his second spell it was we lost Salah, KDB and the team ended up so mentally exhausted we battled relegation the following season).
Re 2018, as far as i can recall (from a combination of what i saw and what Spurs fans told me) outside of two excellent games against us at Wembley and Everton at Goodison you were largely grinding out wins and outperforming your metrics for the entire year.
All we can do is wait and see, again I wasn't a big fan of him but now he is here he will have my full support. He will be under absolutely no pressure with us to win the title even if here up and around there come Christmas, that's not what he was brought here for.
The 2018 we done well for 2 thirds of that season, then fell apart in the last third with 3 wins in 12 games, the players looked exhausted and completely uninterested. Rumours of falling outs within the team and a lot of disharmony.
Then why did you appoint him? He's a manager who unapologetically focuses on immediate success at any cost, appointing him for a rebuild or a long term project is a waste, anyone who appoints Mou should take the Inter approach, accept his MO and throw everything you can into getting that quick success.
He won't change either (you're starting to really see that now with his approach since the WHU game), with all due respect he wouldn't change for the biggest club the world, the club he made his name at or his supposed dream job so he won't be breaking that trend for anyone else.
All these manager topics, it seems Redcafe has decided the only manager that isn’t shite is Klopp, other than Ole of course