The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Zlatan 7]

A narcolepsy diagnosis often takes months, and it's a diagnosis that tends to come after a lot of frustrating doctor's visits and, "you're just run down - try winding down for longer before you go to bed," etc. Pandemrix (the version involved) increased the risk of narcolepsy in kids in particular, and the cases started within one/two months.

Modern clinical trials look for these vaguer, more ambiguous patterns - changes in people's general health/mood - with e-diaries. I don't know how they were handled by GSK back then. At any rate a side effect emerging that quickly would be seen in the trial, if it happened to someone.

The bigger problem is that it's believed it doubled the normal narcolepsy rate (from 1:100,000 in a normal year to 1:50,000 in those who took the vaccine). Now that is beyond the number of people you normally have in a trial (though similar to the numbers involved in these covid trials) and that really wouldn't be visible until after rollout.

incidentally, in places where the swine flu did cause lots of deaths, they also had a rise in narcolepsy. So, as usual there's a calculation involved, and while we might not like the idea, it's one that sometimes trades off side-effects in otherwise healthy people against the risk of catching the disease. Hence another reason for the pattern of older adults first, kids maybe never on the covid vaccine rollout.

Thanks for that. Interesting informative read.
I don’t know enough about it either way but I’m sure there’s others that are saying yes it’s perfectly fine without knowing too much either.

it’s a terrible time and the fact it’s come about at the height of Miss information, Fake news, doubting professionals and general flat earth and anti vax conspiracies adds to it all and the confusion.

I’m sure there’s risks whatever way you lean but it’s all about that balancing act and greater good.
If the vaccine doesn’t prevent carrying then the greater good argument kind of goes out of the window, so again, I’m just taking it day by day and seeing what info becomes available instead of running to the front of the queue

 

[Wibble]

I think you need to back off on this idea of HIT. The efficacy figures we’re seeing for the vaccines are in terms of preventing people getting sick, not stopping them getting infected. I read an interview with the BioNTech head guy and he was saying he was optimistic that the 90% reduction in symptomatic illness might translate to a 50% reduction in infections.

Based on what we know about the infectivity of the virus, even injecting every person on the planet wouldn’t achieve Herd Immunity with that vaccine.

HIT doesn't depend on there being sterilising immunity. If you get sick but still get immunity then mission achieved. Sterilising immunity just works a bit faster.

We can achieve HIT but if this place is anything to go by misguided selfishness will doom the UK and elsewhere to failure.

 

[Libano]

From Moderna's own white paper:

"The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines is that they must penetrate the cell nucleus (crossing two membranes; the cytoplasm and the nucleus). The DNA must then be transcribed in the nucleus into mRNA before moving to the cytoplasm to stimulate antigen production. This core complex pathway often requires both larger doses and special, often painful delivery devices using electric shocks or gold microspheres into person’s skin to deliver the DNA vaccine. Once inside the nucleus, DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA."


Something potentially impacting the entire human race, possibly irreversibly, needs to fulfill the highest safety standards ever applied to a vaccine.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Any of the albums any good?

 

[Wibble]

From Moderna's own white paper:

"The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines is that they must penetrate the cell nucleus (crossing two membranes; the cytoplasm and the nucleus). The DNA must then be transcribed in the nucleus into mRNA before moving to the cytoplasm to stimulate antigen production. This core complex pathway often requires both larger doses and special, often painful delivery devices using electric shocks or gold microspheres into person’s skin to deliver the DNA vaccine. Once inside the nucleus, DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA."


Something potentially impacting the entire human race, possibly irreversibly, needs to fulfill the highest safety standards ever applied to a vaccine.

What are you on about? mRNA vaccines can't change a person's DNA. That is just conspiracy theory nonsense.

https://www.aap.com.au/vaccine-being-developed-for-covid-19-wont-alter-a-persons-dna/

 

[2cents]

From Moderna's own white paper:

"The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines is that they must penetrate the cell nucleus (crossing two membranes; the cytoplasm and the nucleus). The DNA must then be transcribed in the nucleus into mRNA before moving to the cytoplasm to stimulate antigen production. This core complex pathway often requires both larger doses and special, often painful delivery devices using electric shocks or gold microspheres into person’s skin to deliver the DNA vaccine. Once inside the nucleus, DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA."


Something potentially impacting the entire human race, possibly irreversibly, needs to fulfill the highest safety standards ever applied to a vaccine.

Is there a reason you didn't link to it? Here it is (it's from 2017) - https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/RNA_Vaccines_White_Paper_Moderna_050317_v8_4.pdf

The section directly following the part you've chosen to excerpt concerns mRNA vaccines:

"These vaccines combine the advantages of DNA vaccines (natural antigen expression and production that is faster and standardized) while addressing many of the disadvantages. Unlike DNA vaccines, mRNA vaccines do not need to enter the nucleus, nor do they risk being integrated into our DNA, and they are directly translated into protein antigens. As a result, mRNA vaccines require only 1/1000 the dose of DNA vaccines and do not need special delivery devices."

 

[Libano]

What are you on about? mRNA vaccines can't change a person's DNA. That is just conspiracy theory nonsense.

https://www.aap.com.au/vaccine-being-developed-for-covid-19-wont-alter-a-persons-dna/

You realise that I’m quoting Moderna, right? This is not my personal opinion. They are one of several vaccine manufacturers employing mRNA technology. Maybe you know something they don’t.

https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/RNA_Vaccines_White_Paper_Moderna_050317_v8_4.pdf

 

[Libano]

Is there a reason you didn't link to it? Here it is (it's from 2017) - https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/RNA_Vaccines_White_Paper_Moderna_050317_v8_4.pdf

The section directly following the part you've chosen to excerpt concerns mRNA vaccines:

"These vaccines combine the advantages of DNA vaccines (natural antigen expression and production that is faster and standardized) while addressing many of the disadvantages. Unlike DNA vaccines, mRNA vaccines do not need to enter the nucleus, nor do they risk being integrated into our DNA, and they are directly translated into protein antigens. As a result, mRNA vaccines require only 1/1000 the dose of DNA vaccines and do not need special delivery devices."

Thanks for the additional info, this is comforting to know.

 

[2cents]

Thanks for the additional info, this is comforting to know.

Sorry, I have to ask, where did you come across the excerpt you posted?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

HIT doesn't depend on there being sterilising immunity. If you get sick but still get immunity then mission achieved. Sterilising immunity just works a bit faster.

We can achieve HIT but if this place is anything to go by misguided selfishness will doom the UK and elsewhere to failure.

You seem to be misunderstanding herd immunity. It’s dependent on the virus not being able to transmit via people who are immune. You can eventually hit a threshold where enough people are immune that the virus basically dies out due to a lack of susceptible hosts. That’s herd immunity.

If someone gets a vaccine which stops them getting sick but doesn’t stop them getting infected and potentially infecting other people (i.e. approx 50% of people injected with Pfizer vaccine) then they won’t contribute to herd immunity. The threshold for herd immunity for SARS-COV-2 is likely to be at least 60%. Probably a lot higher. So, as I said, even injecting every single person on the planet with this vaccine would still leave us a good bit below the HIT.

 

[SiRed]

If, like me you have difficulty digesting the information that you read, and you have a spare 30 mins, take a look at this video, I feel like a Vaccines expert now.... Atleast have a much clearer sight of whats going on

 

[prateik]

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheJAMANetwork/videos

Is where I check for updates.. Not all Covid related.. but most updates are discussed.

 

[Kasper]

Thanks for the additional info, this is comforting to know.

Don`t act all gratefull, you knew exactly what you were doing. You either were deliberately too ignorant to read further (if you ever clicked on the original, I bet you got it from some "skeptical do your own research" facebook group) to varify yourself what you were sharing on here or you knew right away but it didn`t suit your agenda so you hoped it would pass by. Especially since you implied that the excerpt was from a white paper concerning the new vaccine despite that being from something from 2017.

 

[nimic]

You realise that I’m quoting Moderna, right? This is not my personal opinion. They are one of several vaccine manufacturers employing mRNA technology. Maybe you know something they don’t.

https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/RNA_Vaccines_White_Paper_Moderna_050317_v8_4.pdf

You're quoting Moderna talking about DNA vaccines, when they are creating an mRNA vaccine.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Has anyone noticed that their anti vaccine friends are the same ones who spent years smoking weed, snorting coke and eating that dodgy kebab meat from fast food shops called Kentucky Pizza?

It’s almost as if theres a link.....

 

[Libano]

You're quoting Moderna talking about DNA vaccines, when they are creating an mRNA vaccine.

This has already been established further up and acknowledged by me, but thanks anyway Curvy.

 

[nimic]

This has already been established further up and acknowledged by me, but thanks anyway Curvy.

That's fine, but considering how snarky you were initially, it's worth pointing out four or five more times how confidently wrong you were about something which was so easy to be right about. I'm honestly not sure how you even found that source and that quote while not realizing.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Hope there's no Messi/Ronaldo Coke/Pepsi Microsoft/Apple type of tribalism over these things.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Has anyone noticed that their anti vaccine friends are the same ones who spent years smoking weed, snorting coke and eating that dodgy kebab meat from fast food shops called Kentucky Pizza?

It’s almost as if theres a link.....

feck off there is.

 

[Libano]

That's fine, but considering how snarky you were initially, it's worth pointing out four or five more times how confidently wrong you were about something which was so easy to be right about. I'm honestly not sure how you even found that source and that quote while not realizing.

Thank you. That's kind and generous of you.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

You're quoting Moderna talking about DNA vaccines, when they are creating an mRNA vaccine.

Libano no comprendo

 

[Kasper]

Hope there's no Messi/Ronaldo Coke/Pepsi Microsoft/Apple type of tribalism over these things.

There`s already some subtil nationalistic dogwhistling about the difference vaccines.
I mean, BioNTech and Moderna seem good, xG of 0.9 and 0.95, but do these injections work on a windy and rainy night in Stoke? I don`t think so. Vamos AstraZeneca

 

[Cloud7]

Libano no comprendo

I'm genuinely amazed that people still condone discussion with him. He's been on my mutelist forever now. There's more than enough evidence scattered throughout the website for that.

 

[Cloud7]

Hope there's no Messi/Ronaldo Coke/Pepsi Microsoft/Apple type of tribalism over these things.

Pfizer is overrated.

Moderna 4 eva.

 

[krautrøck]

Thank you. That's kind and generous of you.

Epic fail as per usual.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Has anyone noticed that their anti vaccine friends are the same ones who spent years smoking weed, snorting coke and eating that dodgy kebab meat from fast food shops called Kentucky Pizza?

It’s almost as if theres a link.....

Hey now, there's no reason to bring people's kebab habits into this

 

[Hugh Jass]

Read they are going to slaughter half a million sharks for their livers for these vaccines which makes me depressed. I would rather not take it then.

 

[Ludens the Red]

feck off there is.

Hey now, there's no reason to bring people's kebab habits into this

 

[golden_blunder]

The only concern with these vaccines is long term effects - we don't even have great data on ones that have been around for years but the alternative is usually what makes it worth any long term risk.

The fact that more than one vaccine has been successfull should also erase some fears, something is working and no one has a monopoly.

Finally, the people that NEED the vaccine i.e. the elderly will likely accept short term safety over potential long term effects that they likely won't live to experience(if any).

Had it been the spanish flu with lots of young people needing it, there would be reason for concern.

Oh but it does have a chip in it, Bill told me.

There’s a lot of young vulnerable people too you know. It’s not just an old persons virus. Think off it this way, the more people take the vaccine the better the chances off us all getting back to some sort of normality quicker. Otherwise we are going to go around in circles for years

 

[golden_blunder]

Read they are going to slaughter half a million sharks for their livers for these vaccines which makes me depressed. I would rather not take it then.

Have no empathy for sharks. I’d feel safer going in the water

 

[bsCallout]

There’s a lot of young vulnerable people too you know. It’s not just an old persons virus. Think off it this way, the more people take the vaccine the better the chances off us all getting back to some sort of normality quicker. Otherwise we are going to go around in circles for years

I'm well aware with a brother with DMD.

They would still accept short term safety > potential long term risk.

The % of population of say age 50+ and those with illnesses and in medical professions receiving the vaccine would likely bring about herd immunity pretty quickly.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

There’s a lot of young vulnerable people too you know. It’s not just an old persons virus. Think off it this way, the more people take the vaccine the better the chances off us all getting back to some sort of normality quicker. Otherwise we are going to go around in circles for years

I'm one of those high risk younger folks and I'll be first in line. I'll take two vaccines if I have to. It can't possibly worsen the situation we are currently in.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

There`s already some subtil nationalistic dogwhistling about the difference vaccines.
I mean, BioNTech and Moderna seem good, xG of 0.9 and 0.95, but do these injections work on a windy and rainy night in Stoke? I don`t think so. Vamos AstraZeneca

Pfizer is overrated.

Moderna 4 eva.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Have no empathy for sharks. I’d feel safer going in the water

It's their home, stay on land where you belong!

 

[Brwned]

Thanks for the additional info, this is comforting to know.

Why do you think you so readily believed something that was completely untrue, on an issue you stressed was of the utmost importance, despite how easy it was to find the source to verify the claim?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Have no empathy for sharks. I’d feel safer going in the water

Sharks are lovely though. I had a pet shark growing up. The most caring, affectionate, fluffy, actually that might have been a cat.

 

[Cloud7]

Have no empathy for sharks. I’d feel safer going in the water

The sharks live in the water though. We have no business going in there really. We're the invasive species. That's like if some aliens invaded earth and said that they have no empathy for us because they'd feel safer visiting their new mines/vacation homes without us being there.

 

[Javi]

You seem to be misunderstanding herd immunity. It’s dependent on the virus not being able to transmit via people who are immune. You can eventually hit a threshold where enough people are immune that the virus basically dies out due to a lack of susceptible hosts. That’s herd immunity.

If someone gets a vaccine which stops them getting sick but doesn’t stop them getting infected and potentially infecting other people (i.e. approx 50% of people injected with Pfizer vaccine) then they won’t contribute to herd immunity. The threshold for herd immunity for SARS-COV-2 is likely to be at least 60%. Probably a lot higher. So, as I said, even injecting every single person on the planet with this vaccine would still leave us a good bit below the HIT.

But why should we care about herd immunity when only 5 in 100 people infected get ,normal‘ covid-19 and the other 95 dont even notice it?

Besides, if I understand it correctly, herd immunity also only stops the spread and doesnt erase the virus.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But why should we care about herd immunity when only 5 in 100 people infected get ,normal‘ covid-19 and the other 95 dont even notice it?

Besides, if I understand it correctly, herd immunity also only stops the spread and doesnt erase the virus.

Don’t know where you’re getting your figures from but the benefit of herd immunity is to protect the minority of people who will get very sick/die if they get infected.

If the virus can’t spread, it gets erased.

 

[gormless]

Hypothetically, if the vaccine has mutated to not have an S protein and this was then found in a small percentage of people, would this be an absolute disaster for the vaccines?