The Make A Fecking Sub Ole Thread

[Bobcat]

No it isn’t. Had he just bought on Williams all night it’d still be perfectly legitimate to question that even if Wiliams ended up scoring the winner.

We swapped a forward for a forward.A holding midfielder for a holding midfielder and two full backs for two full backs. Even Fernandes for VDB in theory at least is similar to a straight swap traditionally.

Another game where we were tumescent and his only impact were like for like subs. Thinking the ends justifies the means is responsible for such a sickening lowering of standards

What on earth are you talking about? He wanted to rest some key players, the back ups could not break down a solid WHU so he brought on the big guns.

Making a sub does not nessecitate a tactical change, more often than not it just means fresh legs. The other offensive options were James and a kid whos been here a month

 

[MacarisSocks]

Is anyone keeping tabs of the number of times Greenwood has been subbed off when he's been the best attacker? Doing my nut in this season.

Most times.... favouritism to some more senior players seems to be Ollys achilles heel. Often Greenwood seems the best performer of our front three.

 

[arnie_ni]

This whole thread is just pants on head

Moaning about subs in hindsight is bottom of the barrel stuff

It's rarely hindsight. It's bumped nearly every close game at the time in fairness

 

[PoTMS]

This whole thread is just pants on head

Moaning about subs in hindsight is bottom of the barrel stuff

Hindsight? Have you even read the thread?

 

[arthurka]

Making slow subs and winning games are not mutually exclusive.

I get that people want to see changes. I just think Ole knows more about what's going on then we do.
West Ham didn't come to play and we had to stay patient and grind it out. We did, into the next round and game, set and match. Hope we will be better breaking down West Bromwich at the weekend.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Us winning today doesnt change the fact that Ole takes way too much time to make the subs. Most of the times the subs are given very few minutes to impact the game.

Last season I understand it was because there was not much quality in the bench, but now I think we have a fairly strong bench. He needs to improve on this.

The only reason you could think this is if you think you have a better understanding of what’s going on in the game with a limited view on a tv screen plus you know better about players condition than the actual qualified manager who’s sat there watching it live. Quite a stretch.

 

[Samid]

No subs left. We made 5 subs and despite a lot of confusion over a supposed additional sub for extra time the rules say nothing of the sort.

They used a concussion substitute for Diop. We could have done the same but the rule specifically states that when a concussion sub is made the opposing team can make a sub at the same time so we would have had to have done it at half time. We opted not to so we remain with the standard 5 which we subsequently used.

We made 6 subs vs Norwich last season. Copenhagen made 6 subs against us. Extra time has meant an additional sub in UEFA/English domestic comps since the start of last season.

Extra time plus their concussion sub meant we were allowed 7 subs. There’s absolutely nothing to suggest you have to make your bonus sub at the same time as the concussed player is subbed off for the opposition. Quite frankly that would have been ridiculous anyway. What if their concussion sub happened in the opening 20-30 minutes? That would either force us to make a very early sub for no real reason or concede the extra sub while your opponent still get their full quota of subs + 1. Not to mention it would be idiotic from a logistical point of view. Diop carried on playing a few minutes until half time, how on earth are we supposed to know he won't come out for the second half? Do we tell the ref to delay the kick off for a couple of minutes so we can make a sub of our own at the same time?

Concussion subs are a big incentive where you can take off an injured player with his/her welfare in mind without worrying about numerical disadvantages for your team. Last season Williams got a head injury which forced us down to 10 men and Soton got a late equaliser. Obviously not their fault we couldn't make further subs. With the concussion rules in play that game would have finished 11v11. Goes without saying that the other team get a bonus sub they can use whenever it suits them.

Article backing up the fact that we could have made 7 subs.

 

[UmbroDays]

We made 6 subs vs Norwich last season. Copenhagen made 6 subs against us. Extra time has meant an additional sub in UEFA/English domestic comps since the start of last season.

Extra time plus their concussion sub meant we were allowed 7 subs. There’s absolutely nothing to suggest you have to make your bonus sub at the same time as the concussed player is subbed off for the opposition. Quite frankly that would have been ridiculous anyway. What if their concussion sub happened in the opening 20-30 minutes? That would either force us to make a very early sub for no real reason or concede the extra sub while your opponent still get their full quota of subs + 1. Not to mention it would be idiotic from a logistical point of view. Diop carried on playing a few minutes until half time, how on earth are we supposed to know he won't come out for the second half? Do we tell the ref to delay the kick off for a couple of minutes so we can make a sub of our own at the same time?

Concussion subs are a big incentive where you can take off an injured player with his/her welfare in mind without worrying about numerical disadvantages for your team. Last season Williams got a head injury which forced us down to 10 men and Soton got a late equaliser. Obviously not their fault we couldn't make further subs. With the concussion rules in play that game would have finished 11v11. Goes without saying that the other team get a bonus sub they can use whenever it suits them.

Article backing up the fact that we could have made 7 subs.

@Gandalf - Interesting to see what you're info says about this

 

[VP89]

I get that people want to see changes. I just think Ole knows more about what's going on then we do.
West Ham didn't come to play and we had to stay patient and grind it out. We did, into the next round and game, set and match. Hope we will be better breaking down West Bromwich at the weekend.

I think he's shown a few times that he's poor with his substitutions. Scraping a game 1-0 doesn't vindicate him on slow subs. I think 120 minutes for Rashford was quite a lot, especially when Greenwood was playing better on that right side anyway. He's generally made subs to change the game far too late, and you just think, what's the point. Or he's not made an obvious sub whatsoever and it's cost us in a huge manner (e.g. Fred v PSG).

There's no taking away from the obvious flaw that he's poor with subs.

 

[RUCK4444]

No it isn’t. Had he just bought on Williams all night it’d still be perfectly legitimate to question that even if Wiliams ended up scoring the winner.

We swapped a forward for a forward.A holding midfielder for a holding midfielder and two full backs for two full backs. Even Fernandes for VDB in theory at least is similar to a straight swap traditionally.

Another game where we were tumescent and his only impact were like for like subs. Thinking the ends justifies the means is responsible for such a sickening lowering of standards

Wtf?

We WON the game. Players were rested, rotated, a sub scored the winner. Job done.

What are you expecting him to do? Do a Pep at half time and totally change formation, throw five subs on at the same time?
Why becuase it was 0-0 against a woeful West Ham team in a game we were in complete control of?

Laughable. If you don’t like Ole just say it, don’t try to make something out of nothing when we dominated a boring game after resting key players for the majority of the 90mins.

 

[Adisa]

I always felt Ole takes too much time to make a sub then I saw this thread on Reddit.

Would be nice to know the average time when the game is either level or the team is behind. That would give a clearer picture.

 

[RUCK4444]

I always felt Ole takes too much time to make a sub then I saw this thread on Reddit.

Prime example of a complete non issue that gets built up here.

 

[SAFMUTD]

The only reason you could think this is if you think you have a better understanding of what’s going on in the game with a limited view on a tv screen plus you know better about players condition than the actual qualified manager who’s sat there watching it live. Quite a stretch.

Well under that premise then we shouldn't even debate at all, not question any decision from the manager since theres no way we will ever have more inside knowledge that him.

I guess we should just praise him then huh?

 

[R'hllor]

Ole knows more than us, also that one time when this whole place and probably rest of the planet called 2nd red for Fred, started asking him to be subbed in 1st half +

 

[Gandalf]

@Gandalf - Interesting to see what you're info says about this

I am going to bow out on this one and assume the journalist has better info than me. I just took it from the FA rulebook which does not mention an additional sub in extra time, just an additional substitution opportunity if you have not used all 5 of your subs. The rules seem to have been pretty fluid in the last 12 months so the page I was referring to must be out of date.

Regarding the concussion subs, when it was being rolled out the Athletic reported "How will it work? During the trial, the two teams in a game will have two permanent concussion substitutes per game. If a change is made, the opposing team will also be allowed to make a substitution at the same time."

Looking at what is now being written, including an article in the Athletic today, it seems the caveat about making your substitution at the same time has been dropped. The idea was to stop a team that had used all of its subs using the concussion sub to get an advantage and so the opposing team would be asked if they needed to make a change too. I would guess the teams pushed back on the same time part of the rule as being too restrictive. Whatever, it seems the rules are changing too frequently for my old ass to keep up.

 

[arthurka]

I think he's shown a few times that he's poor with his substitutions. Scraping a game 1-0 doesn't vindicate him on slow subs. I think 120 minutes for Rashford was quite a lot, especially when Greenwood was playing better on that right side anyway. He's generally made subs to change the game far too late, and you just think, what's the point. Or he's not made an obvious sub whatsoever and it's cost us in a huge manner (e.g. Fred v PSG).

There's no taking away from the obvious flaw that he's poor with subs.

To be fair he did put McT on.
But I get where you are going.

 

[AgentSmith]

I think he's shown a few times that he's poor with his substitutions. Scraping a game 1-0 doesn't vindicate him on slow subs. I think 120 minutes for Rashford was quite a lot, especially when Greenwood was playing better on that right side anyway. He's generally made subs to change the game far too late, and you just think, what's the point. Or he's not made an obvious sub whatsoever and it's cost us in a huge manner (e.g. Fred v PSG).

There's no taking away from the obvious flaw that he's poor with subs.

This is the most egregious one Ole does game to game for me besides the unnecessarily delayed nature of the subs themselves.

Consistently taking Greenwood off and shifting Rashford onto the right, where he's uncomfortable at best, while moving Martial to sulk on the left is a lot to achieve with one sub. Seems to happen regardless of their input on the pitch as well.

 

[b82REZ]

For a player known as a super sub during his playing days, you'd think he'd have a better understanding of subs needing some time to settle into games.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Well under that premise then we shouldn't even debate at all, not question any decision from the manager since theres no way we will ever have more inside knowledge that him.

I guess we should just praise him then huh?

Not really, we can question it with limited information available to us but to outright say he’s wrong when he makes them is a bit much I’d say.

I’m actually baffled at the amount of focus there is on the timing of subs these days, I’ve never seen such a meal made out of it before for anybody

 

[lsd]

For a player known as a super sub during his playing days, you'd think he'd have a better understanding of subs needing some time to settle into games.

He always said he prepared himself so he could make an impact as soon as he came on no matter how much time was left perhaps he expects that of his players as well

 

[el3mel]

Not really, we can question it with limited information available to us but to outright say he’s wrong when he makes them is a bit much I’d say.

I’m actually baffled at the amount of focus there is on the timing of subs these days, I’ve never seen such a meal made out of it before for anybody

I hope you have never criticized a manager in your life then, neither at United nor at any other club because it would be contradictory.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I hope you have never criticized a manager in your life then, neither at United nor at any other club because it would be contradictory.

Of course I’ve probably criticised decisions, I think that’s different to a blanket statement that he just takes too long to make subs as a criticism when we don’t know his reasoning behind each and everyone, and i don’t know if it is all that different to other managers timings.

Maybe I just see an intense focus on subs now as there’s less other stuff being moaned about to see

 

[el3mel]

Of course I’ve probably criticised decisions, I think that’s different to a blanket statement that he just takes too long to make subs as a criticism when we don’t know his reasoning behind each and everyone, and i don’t know if it is all that different to other managers timings.

Maybe I just see an intense focus on subs now as there’s less other stuff being moaned about to see

No one really needs a reasoning or a lot of inside information to say if a sub has a wrong timing or the wrong player was subbed off. It just needs him to follow the game closely.

This implies that managers are gods who don't make wrong subs and every sub has a strong reasoning behind them. Best managers in the world make wrong subs all the time and at wrong times too and people call them out for it. Ole is no different.

Believe it or not, managers make mistakes in game management. Just because they know football more than fans, it doesn't mean they make no mistakes at all managing games.

Finally, Ole's sub management has been getting criticized her for a long time. All people who have noticed this can't be collectively wrong at one. While I actually think he's starting to grow into the role more and several aspects of him as a coach have improved over the time, I think this area definitely needs a lot of improvement.

 

[Zlatan 7]

It's rarely hindsight. It's bumped nearly every close game at the time in fairness

If the idea is in ones head that Ole takes too long to make subs, if the game is 0-0 at 60mins it’s pretty easy to post make a sub ffs Ole to be fair.

Its one of those where he can’t win, like last night being criticised for not subbing rashford off or bringing mctom on and the timings of them, even though they were involved in the goal and we win the game we get the we could have won it earlier comments yet we don’t know that either,

I’ve even seen him criticised for not keeping a sub back for extra time and how naive he is, that he replaced fullbacks, that he only made subs without changing formation, anything you can think of involving a sub really

He made a massive call keeping Fred on in the PSG game that backfired and it’s now going to haunt him as much as only winning a league with Molde.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I always felt Ole takes too much time to make a sub then I saw this thread on Reddit.

This is what I got for our first 23 games. I have put in injury sub wherever I know. So some I may have missed

Actual average of first sub: 59 mins
Average if I replace 2nd sub for an injury sub: 64.5 mins

Make whatever out of it

Game	Score at first sub (Reversed for away games)	Time of sub	Player subbed in	Player subbed out	End score (Reversed for away games)	Remarks
Palace	0-1	46​	Greenwood	James	1-3
Brighton	2-1	65​	Fred	Pogba	3-2
Spurs	1-4	46​	Fred, McT	Matic, Bruno	1-6
Newcastle	1-1	69​	Pogba	Fred	4-1
Chelsea	0-0	58​	Pogba	Mata	0-0
Arsenal	0-0	62​	Matic	Fred	0-1
Everton	2-1	67​	Tuanzebe	Shaw	3-1
West Brom	1-0	62​	Cavani	Mata	1-0
Soton	0-2	46​	Henderson, Cavani	De Gea, Greenwood	3-2
West Ham	0-1	46​	Rashford, Bruno	Cavani, VDB	3-1
Man City	0-0	74​	Martial	Greenwood	0-0
Sheff Utd	3-1	74​	Mata	Greenwood	3-2
Leeds	6-1	71​	Cavani	Rashford	6-2
Leicester	1-1	54​	Pogba	James	2-2
Wolves	0-0	46​	Shaw	Telles	1-0	Injury sub. Next sub at 64. Martial for Greenwood at score 0-0
Villa	2-1	65​	Matic	McT	2-1
Burnley	1-0	80​	Greenwood	Rashford	1-0
Liverpool	0-0	61​	Cavani	Martial	0-0
Fulham	2-1	85​	McT	Martial	2-1
Sheff Utd	1-1	66​	Cavani	Greenwood	1-2
Arsenal	0-0	37​	Martial	McT	0-0	Early injury sub. Next sub at 80 Mason for Rashford
Soton	4-0	46​	Martial,VDB	Cavani, Shaw	9-0
Everton	1-0	39​	Fred	Pogba	3-3	Early injury sub. Next sub at 93rd min Tuanzebe for Greenwood at 3-2 score

 

[Zlatan 7]

No one really needs a reasoning or a lot of inside information to say if a sub has a wrong timing or the wrong player was subbed off. It just needs him to follow the game closely.

This implies that managers are gods who don't make wrong subs and every sub has a strong reasoning behind them. Best managers in the world make wrong subs all the time and at wrong times too and people call them out for it. Ole is no different.

Believe it or not, managers make mistakes in game management. Just because they know football more than fans, it doesn't mean they make no mistakes at all managing games.

Finally, Ole's sub management has been getting criticized her for a long time. All people who have noticed this can't be collectively wrong at one. While I actually think he's starting to grow into the role more and several aspects of him as a coach have improved over the time, I think this area definitely needs a lot of improvement.

I agree with almost all of your post, of course they get it wrong. I just think a lot are posting with a pre conceived notion that’s it’s going to be wrong or was wrong no matter what happened or the outcome and it’s snowballed.

Ole can improve there of course, he’s still relatively new to the job I’d say in terms of years and not decades, there’s lots to learn and I’ve no doubt with hindsight he’s looked back at decisions with regret or that he could have done them slightly differently. I just don’t see a massive issue with subs, it’s a hectic year with the pressure to heavily rotate for freshness plus keep winning every single game, we havn’t managed it too bad so far.

maybe one or two decisions he’s made here or there but not this drastic he’s naive or out of his depth can’t make a sub I’m seeing.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Not really, we can question it with limited information available to us but to outright say he’s wrong when he makes them is a bit much I’d say.

I’m actually baffled at the amount of focus there is on the timing of subs these days, I’ve never seen such a meal made out of it before for anybody

Well when things are not going our way is only natural that everyone expects Ole to make a sub to impact the game. When its clear its going no where but still he wastes 30-35 minutes of the second half everytime thats when its worrying.

If we were winning and dominating I dont think anybody would mind about the subs, the questioning is about how little he seems to impact the game with his subs when things are not going well for the team.

 

[motsjo]

That is why Ole is the gaffer, and the armchair managers are just that, armchair managers.

No, he's the manager because he used to play for us, and because of Bruno.

 

[Zlatan 7]

No, he's the manager because he used to play for us, and because of Bruno.

 

[K Stand Knut]

This is what I got for our first 23 games. I have put in injury sub wherever I know. So some I may have missed

Actual average of first sub: 59 mins
Average if I replace 2nd sub for an injury sub: 64.5 mins

Make whatever out of it

Game	Score at first sub (Reversed for away games)	Time of sub	Player subbed in	Player subbed out	End score (Reversed for away games)	Remarks
Palace	0-1	46​	Greenwood	James	1-3
Brighton	2-1	65​	Fred	Pogba	3-2
Spurs	1-4	46​	Fred, McT	Matic, Bruno	1-6
Newcastle	1-1	69​	Pogba	Fred	4-1
Chelsea	0-0	58​	Pogba	Mata	0-0
Arsenal	0-0	62​	Matic	Fred	0-1
Everton	2-1	67​	Tuanzebe	Shaw	3-1
West Brom	1-0	62​	Cavani	Mata	1-0
Soton	0-2	46​	Henderson, Cavani	De Gea, Greenwood	3-2
West Ham	0-1	46​	Rashford, Bruno	Cavani, VDB	3-1
Man City	0-0	74​	Martial	Greenwood	0-0
Sheff Utd	3-1	74​	Mata	Greenwood	3-2
Leeds	6-1	71​	Cavani	Rashford	6-2
Leicester	1-1	54​	Pogba	James	2-2
Wolves	0-0	46​	Shaw	Telles	1-0	Injury sub. Next sub at 64. Martial for Greenwood at score 0-0
Villa	2-1	65​	Matic	McT	2-1
Burnley	1-0	80​	Greenwood	Rashford	1-0
Liverpool	0-0	61​	Cavani	Martial	0-0
Fulham	2-1	85​	McT	Martial	2-1
Sheff Utd	1-1	66​	Cavani	Greenwood	1-2
Arsenal	0-0	37​	Martial	McT	0-0	Early injury sub. Next sub at 80 Mason for Rashford
Soton	4-0	46​	Martial,VDB	Cavani, Shaw	9-0
Everton	1-0	39​	Fred	Pogba	3-3	Early injury sub. Next sub at 93rd min Tuanzebe for Greenwood at 3-2 score

You should have saved yourself the hassle and just waited for The Athletic to release the article they’ve released this morning!!

https://theathletic.com/2361878/202...-ole-and-his-subs/?source=user_shared_article

 

[RedDevil@84]

You should have saved yourself the hassle and just waited for The Athletic to release the article they’ve released this morning!!

https://theathletic.com/2361878/202...-ole-and-his-subs/?source=user_shared_article

 

[justsomebloke]

Could you make a thread about wanting us to score some goals from open play?

Not needed. 47 of our 65 goals in the PL and CL have come from open play.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Ole make a sub mate.

Thanks.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I’m betting 73 minutes.

 

[TheRedHearted]

What’s interesting is the psychological effect on players by making early subs. More fire under them if they know that they’re doing isn’t working. We need more of that so let’s hope Ole starts subbing earlier and more ruthlessly

 

[OleBoiii]

Ok, so some people want Ole out. Fine. But wanting him to start working for Subway? That's pretty harsh.

 

[Nick7]

Why even bring players for the bench?

 

[MattofManchester]

Here we go again.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

The players that were on the pitch was most likely to do something. I think he made the right decision.

 

[prateik]

There was no one on the bench.. VDB? for whom?
We didnt have Cavani or Pogba who would have come on if fit..
We didnt need any defensive subs.. Amad is clearly not ready.. only sub could have been VDB for someone.. but that would have weakened the midfield..
Never going to happen unless we went ahead or had an injury.