That thing some people do where they <checks notes> pretend to check notes is a bit silly to me. Why are you making notes about a thread on the caf. Seems like there are nore fruitful ways to spend your time.
Why would a fairly harmless gesture with an anti-racist message inflame tensions? Can you answer that honestly.I felt since the beginning that the taking the knee gesture was always more likely to inflame tensions than it was to soothe them in this country. I think dividing people into different groups is dangerous. And of all groups of people, had anyone asked the question yet why it might be the Scottish and Irish that don't take the knee? Do you not think that they know a little about persecution?
I feel like we are now at the point where, much like the poppy, this something has become a sacred symbol of an ideology that nobody can touch. And I bet there's a lot of people reading this thread who are -afraid- to articulate that for fear of being labelled a racist, which should be absolutely ridiculous given the prominence and importance of black players at our football club past and present and how much we adore them.
We can't start villifying people who don't take the knee. It doesn't automatically make them racist, but their group identity might be a persecuted one anyway. I would take the knee if I was playing football, absolutely, but I don't think we should start attacking individuals and teams that don't. It's more nuanced than that.
In part, because it was an anti authoritarian political statement to begin with, that has now become something else entirrly. We already had kick-it-out campaigns and John Barnes was already front and centre in the media calling our country out for not doing enough to combat racism in the lower levels of football, so that discussion had already happened. It feels like the CURRENT message is designed to turn groups of people into either the "victim" or "perpetrator" roles, and it's not nice to feel like either of those - if the message ISN'T intended that way then the problem is that it's confusing. I prefer unifying statements to divisive ones, as much as I get the sentiment behind it all and it breaks my heart to read about our players suffering racist abuse - nobody deserves that. Especially our players as they've proven what fantastic human beings they are. But this stuff is deliberately inflammatory. Saying you want it front and centre goes to the Malcolm X line of thinking but Martin Luther King is one of my heroes and his philosophy feels at odds with all this antagonism. Last I'll write in here though as it's upsetting to write about. I hope Axel and Marcus etc are alright.Why would a fairly harmless gesture with an anti-racist message inflame tensions? Can you answer that honestly.
As a fan of both, I can tell you where you're more likely to encounter racism and it ain't at the rugby ground.Also funny that we should follow the example of predominantly white, middle-class sport like rugby above all else.
Eh?As a fan of both, I can tell you where you're more likely to encounter racism and it ain't at the rugby ground.
Depends on your definition of racism. Institutional racism exists in predominantly white middle class institutions. You won't encounter much of the blatant vitriolic abuse seen at football grounds but privately I know it exists. My ex father in law was very much like that; a middle class professional, cricket, tennis and rugby loving pillar of the community. Yet some of the stuff he came out in private used to shock meAs a fan of both, I can tell you where you're more likely to encounter racism and it ain't at the rugby ground.
I don't see how it is deliberately inflammatory. They've moved from away from the BLM stuff, to a more general say no to racism message [and it's much more than just verbal racist abuse, which is the easiest form of racism to deal with, personally speaking]. I don't see how that message is designed to alienate anyone or be antagonistic in any kind of way. As a black person in the UK, I've had many more conversations with friends and football fans in general about racism and race relations in UK society in the last 12 months than we'd ever had previously. What would a unifying message sound like to you, if I may ask? Say no to racism sounds pretty unifying to me.In part, because it was an anti authoritarian political statement to begin with, that has now become something else entirrly. We already had kick-it-out campaigns and John Barnes was already front and centre in the media calling our country out for not doing enough to combat racism in the lower levels of football, so that discussion had already happened. It feels like the CURRENT message is designed to turn groups of people into either the "victim" or "perpetrator" roles, and it's not nice to feel like either of those - if the message ISN'T intended that way then the problem is that it's confusing. I prefer unifying statements to divisive ones, as much as I get the sentiment behind it all and it breaks my heart to read about our players suffering racist abuse - nobody deserves that. Especially our players as they've proven what fantastic human beings they are. But this stuff is deliberately inflammatory. Saying you want it front and centre goes to the Malcolm X line of thinking but Martin Luther King is one of my heroes and his philosophy feels at odds with all this antagonism. Last I'll write in here though as it's upsetting to write about. I hope Axel and Marcus etc are alright.
And also as a fan of both, I can tell you which sport promotes a system of classism and it isn't the football ground.As a fan of both, I can tell you where you're more likely to encounter racism and it ain't at the rugby ground.
You are giving people far too much credit. Most people don't have a clue about any of those political undertones, most people simply associate the BLM movement with fighting racial inequality in society. That simply shouldn't be a divisive issue, the fact that it is and people like the OP are arguing against it shows that isn't the case for everyone and that's the real problem.In part, because it was an anti authoritarian political statement to begin with, that has now become something else entirrly. We already had kick-it-out campaigns and John Barnes was already front and centre in the media calling our country out for not doing enough to combat racism in the lower levels of football, so that discussion had already happened. It feels like the CURRENT message is designed to turn groups of people into either the "victim" or "perpetrator" roles, and it's not nice to feel like either of those - if the message ISN'T intended that way then the problem is that it's confusing. I prefer unifying statements to divisive ones, as much as I get the sentiment behind it all and it breaks my heart to read about our players suffering racist abuse - nobody deserves that. Especially our players as they've proven what fantastic human beings they are. But this stuff is deliberately inflammatory. Saying you want it front and centre goes to the Malcolm X line of thinking but Martin Luther King is one of my heroes and his philosophy feels at odds with all this antagonism. Last I'll write in here though as it's upsetting to write about. I hope Axel and Marcus etc are alright.
Haha! Hey, that was autocorrect. Not by the racist subconscious part of our brains, but by my Android operating system.After being such a vehement anti-racist in the thread, seeing you fall at the last hurdle by confusing two black football players with each other is heartbreaking.
I should edit, but nah, I think it is too late.I wondered why I was so confused by that post. Now I see it.
"So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested"From 1990 to the present day, the breakdown of deaths of people of black, Asian and minority ethnicity (BAME) in custody or following other police contact and as the result of police shootings in England and Wales are as follows:
Total BAME deaths in police custody or otherwise following contact with the police, England & Wales 1990-2020 Type Metropolitan Police Other Forces Total Custody 84 79 164 Shooting 15 5 20 All custody and shooting deaths 99 84 184
Between 1990 and 2015, an average of one person a week died following contact with police or whilst being held in police custody.
One African, Caribbean or South Asian person dies in police custody every two months.
No police officer has been charged with the death of a BAME individual since 1971.
Love how you try to disprove that claim by linking an article that states blacks are arrested at a DISPROPORTIONAL rate. Why do you think that is?"So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
...sorry, read the above article. White people are PROPORTIONALLY more likely to die in police custody. I am not for one minute suggesting racism doesn't exist or isn't a problem worth addressing, nor that white people have it harder.
But you're being quite disingenuous here and it doesn't help your cause
Focusing on arrests, yes."So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
...sorry, read the above article. White people are PROPORTIONALLY more likely to die in police custody. I am not for one minute suggesting racism doesn't exist or isn't a problem worth addressing, nor that white people have it harder.
But you're being quite disingenuous here and it doesn't help your cause
This societal racism goes deeper than I’d ever imagined.Haha! Hey, that was autocorrect. Not by the racist subconscious part of our brains, but by my Android operating system.
That is a very difficult question with a multifaceted answer. I suspect that some of it has to do with institutional racism but that is far too simplistic to be the complete reason.Love how you try to disprove that claim by linking an article that states blacks are arrested at a DISPROPORTIONAL rate. Why do you think that is?
It's basically 1985 mate. Scary stuff this fight against racism.
Ha, had this one a few times. Its one of those things for me personally where there's a way to do it... Like they can say "I mean where does your family originate" or "what's your heritage" and that's cool... But when it's "No, where are you really from" not that it upsets /offends me... it just comes across as a bit ignorant.So here's a white man's story:
Since the BLM campaign/taking the knee started. Reading people's posts regarding their experiences with racism has opened my eyes to issues I didn't realise were there. Obviously I don't mean I didn't know racism existed anymore as the OP suggested but smaller less notable issues. Reading people's experiences such a woman tightens her grip on her bag when she notices a black man has joined the queue behind her, people moving away from the Asian student on the train after spotting his bag in the wake of the Manchester Arena bombings, people asking the british-asian man but where are you really from when he replies England or people asking their black colleague if they they can touch her hair. I've even noticed I've been guilty of similar things in the past, avoiding the hooded black man when out in town but perfectly fine walking past group of drunk white men. I could be wrong but taking the knee is to open peoples eyes to things like this to show that just because you don't come across obvious racism in your world, people using aggressive racial slurs etc. It doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.
Androids can not take the knee. iOS may be safe.This societal racism goes deeper than I’d ever imagined.
Imagine wanting to copy anything from rugby. If there’s ever a sport of knobheads - it’s rugby.
Yea mate nothing p*sees me off more than when Breast Cancer UK come round looking for a handout; what about the prostates!!!Yes, it's time. While some will castigate me, it's time because it's not inclusive. Watch a video where is the person helping hearing impaired, if there is documentation, are they created for neurodiverse individuals, sight impaired individuals, is the material decolonised..
There is a danger of populism, I want to see BLM, kickitout and others shout equally about other issues.
I challenge anyone; message kickitout and ask them how inclusive their training is..
Is this trolling ?Yes, it's time. While some will castigate me, it's time because it's not inclusive. Watch a video where is the person helping hearing impaired, if there is documentation, are they created for neurodiverse individuals, sight impaired individuals, is the material decolonised..
There is a danger of populism, I want to see BLM, kickitout and others shout equally about other issues.
I challenge anyone; message kickitout and ask them how inclusive their training is..
There are many people who think that it's a good point. Whenever someone point the finger at an issue there is a minority of "But what do you have to say about X?" kind of people.Is this trolling ?
If you find it "cringe worthy" to see players take a knee in support of BLM then perhaps that's because you're racist...At the weekend the Irish and Scottish Rugby teams refused to take the Knee for BLM.
Surely this cringe show should now end and the silliness of millionaire footballers taking the knee before an empty stadium every week should stop.
Whilst I have sympathies with the problems in the United States I fail to see how millionaire footballers bending the knee each week does anything to help those in the States and certainly is something we have to worry about in the UK.
No matter what your view, BLM is a political Movement, I much prefer we aim to make all lives better no matter, and one thing that Rashford has highlighted in the UK is the divide between the haves and have nots regardless of colour.
I honestly believe this Premier League Wokeness needs to stop, and I fully support the Rugby Teams in taking a stand on this.
https://www.irishpost.com/news/enti...e-before-six-nations-tie-against-wales-203307
If I was about to write something I knew people would castigate me for, I might first wonder if what I was about to write was really stupid.Yes, it's time. While some will castigate me, it's time because it's not inclusive. Watch a video where is the person helping hearing impaired, if there is documentation, are they created for neurodiverse individuals, sight impaired individuals, is the material decolonised..
There is a danger of populism, I want to see BLM, kickitout and others shout equally about other issues.
I challenge anyone; message kickitout and ask them how inclusive their training is..
But your awareness has been raised, no?What does bending the knee actually achieve? It doesn't raise anymore awareness and nothing has been done since.
It's time action is taken rather than some stupid political movement to pretend like people care but if people cared something would have been done by now.
Yeah, idiots they’re called. But I’ve never seen it put the way he put it.There are many people who think that it's a good point. Whenever someone point the finger at an issue there is a minority of "But what do you have to say about X?" kind of people.
Hence why I said "anymore".But your awareness has been raised, no?
You are lucky!Yeah, idiots they’re called. But I’ve never seen it put the way he put it.
I think OP is racist but has never come to terms with it before.What a bizarre thread.
Can't tell if the OP is trolling or being genuine.
What does bending the knee actually achieve? It doesn't raise anymore awareness and nothing has been done since.
It's time action is taken rather than some stupid political movement to pretend like people care but if people cared something would have been done by now.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...e-following-targeting-of-footballers-12214174Hence why I said "anymore".
What does bending the knee do now when sports franchise do it? It doesn't change anything or achieve anything.