Our recent form has been shit.
The true cost of the Mourinho era and how badly the club has been run
- Thread starter Bobcat
- Start date
Like we get it, they want him sacked but it is ok to discuss other factors why we might not be winning titles.
Points difference between City and United in the last 4 seasons:
20/21: City 65 - United 51 = 14 points
19/20: City 81 - United 66 = 15 points
18/19: City 98 - United 66 = 34 points
17/18: City 100 - United 81 = 19 points
I know city are the near perfect run club know but man that gap is just never getting any better right now.
Club needs to wake up. We keep pretending we are making massive strides and it's such a disservice to the fans.
We are going sideways as much as ever right now.
20/21: City 65 - United 51 = 14 points
19/20: City 81 - United 66 = 15 points
18/19: City 98 - United 66 = 34 points
17/18: City 100 - United 81 = 19 points
I know city are the near perfect run club know but man that gap is just never getting any better right now.
Club needs to wake up. We keep pretending we are making massive strides and it's such a disservice to the fans.
We are going sideways as much as ever right now.
Head Coach (Ole), Assistant Manager (Mike Shorts), Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
*currently was true in March 2020, so I can’t say for certain if the same people are holding those jobs.
I don’t come here to listen to you. If you think I’m not listening it literally just means I don’t agree with you.
You’ve just re-said exactly what I posted, I literally said it’s ‘somewhere in the middle’ meaning it’s not all Ole but a large part of it is.
Miracle is a turn of phrase and I stand by the fact the difference between Mourinho and LVG’s transfers and Ole’s is absolutely night and day.
Also there is no proof at all that the club hierarchy have changed anything in recruitment, in fact the opposite, they just let the manager spend until we don’t get top four, that is their sole involvement. Which only lends more weight to Ole’s involvement.
PS don’t start your reply with ‘there you go not listening’ it’s condescending and like I said your not the fountain of knowledge we all have to listen to here bud.
Great article. Ole gets a lot of stick on this forum but you can see, with just a bit of analysis, what he is working with and what he is trying to do.
Well except there is. Transfer board and how it operates has been confirmed by Mourinho, Woodward and Ole.
Board has a veto, manager has a veto, the idea is to work together for a more sustainable strategy.
This is the transfer board.
Head Coach (Ole), Assistant Manager (Mike Shorts), Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
So if you don’t know the full story, try enlightening yourself first before posting. It’s painful we have to remind United fans of this every few months, it’s your club ffs, at least learn how it operates and you’ll have much better understanding of why Mourinho lost his shit after Summer 2018, and why Ole/Phelan were lined up to take over under this new strategy.
Anyways to focus on the positives of this horrific period, Woodward and The Glazers will have learned from their mistakes.
David Moyes could have been a success had he realized his limitations and worked under Fergie for a year as a no. 2, to learn how a big club is run, instead he believed he was the messiah for finishing mid-table every season with Fellaini and Osman.
We still have work to do getting freeloaders off the wage bill such as De Gea and Martial, but Ole has done some great work. You'd hope Diallo and Garner will eventually get there. And I've no doubt we will be signing mostly more unheard of superkids come the summer, and if Ole fails, then the names the board will be going for will be names that fit Utd DNA like Marco Rose or Naglesmann, and not the crock of shite dinosaurs with their empty trophies from 10 years ago while playing defensive garbage such as - Capello, Jose, Van Gaal, Trapattoni, Martin O'Neil, Neil Lennon, Simeone, etc
David Moyes could have been a success had he realized his limitations and worked under Fergie for a year as a no. 2, to learn how a big club is run, instead he believed he was the messiah for finishing mid-table every season with Fellaini and Osman.
We still have work to do getting freeloaders off the wage bill such as De Gea and Martial, but Ole has done some great work. You'd hope Diallo and Garner will eventually get there. And I've no doubt we will be signing mostly more unheard of superkids come the summer, and if Ole fails, then the names the board will be going for will be names that fit Utd DNA like Marco Rose or Naglesmann, and not the crock of shite dinosaurs with their empty trophies from 10 years ago while playing defensive garbage such as - Capello, Jose, Van Gaal, Trapattoni, Martin O'Neil, Neil Lennon, Simeone, etc
I’m gonna hazard a guess that it’s posts like the below that cause it, just as much as the other way around.
Are you saying we have NO scouting department prior? Of course we did.
The only veto the board has is monetary. None of them are football men so the decisions on players and player demographic is almost entirely down to Ole with Phelan likely giving no more than a helpful opinion.
The scouts present a list, Ole no doubt had his preferred options (see Sancho and Haaland) who we are clearly interested in. It doesn’t take a team of men to highlight those names unless Ole’s been living in a cave.
Like I said it’s not solely on Ole but it’s close and I think it’s naive to say otherwise or at worst agenda driven.
Ole gets a hammering for the negatives, rightly so, by the same token he deserves praise for the positives.
You are acting like an ignorant buffoon now, it has been confirmed by Woodward and Ole exactly how it works and the veto can be used by transfer board and manager, Woodward’s only involvement is signing off the money.
Yes we had a scouting team, with a massive problem and why they changed it after Mourinho’s second year was that Mourinho wouldn’t listen to them; so it was just a big fecking waste of a whole scouting team, and was creating something completely unsustainable.
You want the quotes confirming it??
Here’s Woodward:
“The manager has a veto on a player - we would never sign a player the manager wouldn't want because he wouldn't play him. But we also feel the recruitment department, the football experts, should have a veto too."”
feck me, couldn’t buy a clue.
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Didnt we give mental contracts to De Gea, Martial and Jones after Jose left? What about the true cost of those.
That is one shit article. And didn't Juve paid Raiola's fee, not us?
Depends on the size of the mess. Only now have we managed to clear out most of the deadwood and even now we are paying for some of those players that have come and gone. Not to mention the millions wasted since Fergie retired
And while i agree that singling out Jose might be unfair, it remains a fact we have squandered a monumental amount of money with little to show for it. In comparison, Liverpool in the same timeframe have made a small fortune with Suarez and Couthino
I don't disagree on Mourinho making a mess out of the transfers and squad, and actually singling him out is fair, but talking about the impact of the previous manager on the current one works in his first season in charge or so when he has just got the job and had to work with the previous manager's squad. It has been nearly 2.5 years since Ole took charge so pretty much enough time to solve any mess left by any previous manager.
The damage was done with the first reply and posts like the one before mine before that pretty tame effort on page 3.
Other side to this is since Mourinho left we’ve handed out new contracts on big wages to dross that we don’t want but can’t sell. Given Cavani a contract that shares similarities to one given to Zlatan and paid a world record fee for a defender for Harry Maguire.
It’s not all Mourinho’s fault.
However, with hindsight, he was not the right fit for this club under current ownership. The article might not be telling us anything we didn’t know but it is a reminder of the short-termism and generally sporadic and non-strategic approach to transfers prior to the rethink that appears to have happened prior to Mourinho being sacked.
I wouldn’t think of this as being any comment on Ole, how good or bad he is, how much influence he has on current policy. In fact, it’s probably hasty to credit or blame Ole for any transfers. But, what I like about him is that he is fully bought into the long term development of the team and the club.
Some people, not everyone, are obsessed with winning and being the best soon. When I say soon, I mean within 3 years. The article is a case study, of sorts, about the risk of investing for the short term. Dynasties that last are seldom realised in a short period.
Having said all that, if we don’t drop £250m on players this summer I’m going to burn my Schweinsteiger shirt.
However, with hindsight, he was not the right fit for this club under current ownership. The article might not be telling us anything we didn’t know but it is a reminder of the short-termism and generally sporadic and non-strategic approach to transfers prior to the rethink that appears to have happened prior to Mourinho being sacked.
I wouldn’t think of this as being any comment on Ole, how good or bad he is, how much influence he has on current policy. In fact, it’s probably hasty to credit or blame Ole for any transfers. But, what I like about him is that he is fully bought into the long term development of the team and the club.
Some people, not everyone, are obsessed with winning and being the best soon. When I say soon, I mean within 3 years. The article is a case study, of sorts, about the risk of investing for the short term. Dynasties that last are seldom realised in a short period.
Having said all that, if we don’t drop £250m on players this summer I’m going to burn my Schweinsteiger shirt.
Eh? How on Earth was the first reply slagging Ole and "damage done"?
You clearly just don’t grasp the fact that Woodward is a banker and has no football experience, nobody on the board does, so you think he makes the list and chooses the players?
That quote just states the feckin glaringly obvious that any chair/board of a football club can veto a signing. It says nothing of the boards involvement in selection, because it has none. The board just sign off the money (or veto it if they deem it too much.)
It’s clear with NO experience Ed and the board wouldn’t even have an input in selection other than from a marketing perspective. We don’t even have a DOF.
It’s you that’s scrambling for a clue here. In your determination to minimise Ole’s involvement in it.
My fecking God man, here's the bit to read:
“But we also feel the recruitment department, the football experts, should have a veto too."”
Stop playing daft cnuts now. I've already given you the names of the recruitment department, "the football experts".
I'll tell you again how it works, anyone of Head Coach (Ole), Assistant Manager (Mike Shorts), Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor) can present a name, if Ole doesn't like a name on the recruitment team list, he can veto it. If the recruitment team don't like a name on Ole/Phelan's list, they can veto that.
Ffs man, try to bloody educate yourself.
Why the feck you're still banging on about Woodward who has no involvement aside from signing off money, I have no fecking idea.
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100% this.
So you think Ole doesn’t select the players himself and ultimately sign off who we physically sign?
Ed in those quotes is clearly trying to portray an image that we have moved on from his ‘Disney land’ quotes.
If you think anybody other than Ole ultimately selects who we sign then your the one playing daft cnuts.
It’s a shame there’s not much substance to your posts as your quite prolific.
I don't think anything, it's been confirmed in a shareholder metting. You are the only one here going against what has been confirmed to shareholders like you're an ITK.
The recruitment team is there to scout and select players; and then present them as options to the other members, Ole the same. Once again, Ole can veto any name he doesn't fancy, so yes he ultimately signs it off man. But the recruitment team also must sign it off, whether it be one of their names, or one of Ole's.
It's hardly revolutionary stuff man.
Ahhhhh, so now Ed's lying, committing an act that is actually against the law and lying in a shareholder meeting?
That's what you've resorted to when you've been proven utterly and completely clueless as to how the club you support is run.
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‘We believe’ the scouting department should have a veto. Oh it’s very convincing.Ahhhhh, so now Ed's lying, committing an act that is actually against the law and lying in a shareholder meeting?
That's what you've resorted to when you've been proven utter and completely clueless as to how the club you support is run.
In the absence of a DOF or a single instance where Ole was overruled by some numpty looking at stats on some PC screen then your the one peddling nonsense about how the club is run.
All the scouts do is give data, Ole picks who he wants just like every single Manchester United manager has. Until we appoint a DOF, because ya know, that’s what they are implemented for.
We have the second highest net spend behind city and we still have fans complaining about the quality of our team. It really shows how badly we have been underachieving. Jose season when we won the europa league, some domestic cups and came second has been our best and that is still below United standards. It has always been selecting the right managers and we have failed in that department year in and year out.
Even though, our board tries to do the right thing and give our managers tons of cash to spend, it apparent that such approach doesn’t work when the manager are not good enough. Jose, lvg, Moyes, and ole are managers in hindsight that makes you realize why we haven’t been really successful and meeting the standards of United under Ferguson.
Even though, our board tries to do the right thing and give our managers tons of cash to spend, it apparent that such approach doesn’t work when the manager are not good enough. Jose, lvg, Moyes, and ole are managers in hindsight that makes you realize why we haven’t been really successful and meeting the standards of United under Ferguson.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/26/ed-w...oed-jose-mourinhos-transfer-targets-11220387/
Here's Ed @RUCK4444 , actually confirming what was widely reported in 2018, that the recruitment team used their veto on Mourinho. Mourinho meltdown also confirmed it obviously, but yeah sure, we scrapped it for Ole after just putting it in place the year he arrived, because the club decided "Ole" was just that good and didn't need it. And now sneaky Ed is lying in shareholder meeting, pretending it's still in place, because "Disneyland".
Here's Ed @RUCK4444 , actually confirming what was widely reported in 2018, that the recruitment team used their veto on Mourinho. Mourinho meltdown also confirmed it obviously, but yeah sure, we scrapped it for Ole after just putting it in place the year he arrived, because the club decided "Ole" was just that good and didn't need it. And now sneaky Ed is lying in shareholder meeting, pretending it's still in place, because "Disneyland".
Why are you talking about Mourinho? It’s telling that was at a point where Mourinho was clearly making poor decisions and had upset the entire squad and fans with both his football and demeanour. He already had one foot our the door. So it’s a no-brainer to limit his spending.
Listen the crux here, regardless of your press quotes and Ed’s narrative is that Ole has selected each of his signings so far and neither Ed or the scouting department have veto’d anything from Ole. So he is the one calling the shots. You’ve said as much yourself in between rants about Ed and the scouting team. So your argument isn’t even applicable here.
Look at who we have signed, they weren’t exactly rough diamonds we uncovered from South America, they are all established players at their previous clubs. Ole has simply selected young but established players to improve each position in the team, not rocket science but importantly he’s gotten it mostly right.
Fans are complaining about the quality of the team because its not reflected in our spending.
Besides Bruno and Shaw (maybe AWB) we have not signed a single player since Fergie that has increased in value while playing for us.
Maybe Diallo and Pellestri turn out to be hidden gems, but other than that i cant imagine any other transfer increasing in value
So you now admit the recruitment team can veto him. So step 1 solved, good stuff. Shouldn't have taken an hour but we're there.
Step 2. How do you know Ole selected his signings? and not the recruitment team, and that Ole has simply trusted them? DvB certainly looks like one. My best guess is that it's a mixture as with any good team.
Step 3. How do you know they haven't vetoed him? Plenty of reports claimed they vetoed Upamecano for what's that's worth. Do you sit on the transfer board to know these things?
And yes, all along since the very first fecking post with you I've said Ole's done a very good job on this and is part of a much improved transfer strategy, one put into place in 2018 to stop the LVG/Mourinho clusterfeck of giving a manager full control. It was an alternative to bringing in a DoF.
We've debated for an hour because you've made up your own version of reality.
I'll say once again here so you calm yourself, I don't think Ole should be sacked. I think there's a case to keep him even if we finish 5th, he was brought in alongside Phelan because the club knew the LVG/Mourinho route was unsustainable, the squad was bloated and the wage bill was going through the roof.
They needed a manager that would know the club and work with the recruitment team on fecking off as much deadwood as possible, bring down the wage bill and plan long term. I don't think the likes of Ancelotti or Allegri would've gone along with that.
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Mourinho will next be blamed for cancer. I dislike the guy as much as anyone else and he did set the club back big time with his short term view, but the circus already started under Moyes and LvG: breaking club records on unsuitable players, handing out ridiculous contracts to new and existing players, buying shiny new toys instead of building a team, etc.
In the last 2 years we have been very busy trying to get rid off the mess created by those 3 managers (well and by the board). Crucial positions needed to be filled even under those managers so the new players weren’t luxury signings but most of them were just wrong players. We have slowly gotten rid of most of them but have only partly replaced them / filled the respective positions / sold them and spent money on other positions.
That’s why despite spending money since, we still need to fill crucial positions with quality additions.
In the last 2 years we have been very busy trying to get rid off the mess created by those 3 managers (well and by the board). Crucial positions needed to be filled even under those managers so the new players weren’t luxury signings but most of them were just wrong players. We have slowly gotten rid of most of them but have only partly replaced them / filled the respective positions / sold them and spent money on other positions.
That’s why despite spending money since, we still need to fill crucial positions with quality additions.
I literally said at the beginning of this exchange that the reality is ‘somewhere in the middle.’
Meaning it’s not entire Ole, however I was simply pointing out he deserves his share of praise for the large part he plays because he ultimately decides who we sign.
You've been the one seemingly adamant that its mostly the club and scouting department to thank for our upturn in recruitment, I just disagreed with that stance and the substance of what Ed is eluding to in the background.
And no I don’t agree that Ole can be veto’d for anything other than price, until such time that a DOF is implemented.
Upamecano we would have gone for but he’s chosen Bayern, that was never going to happen. DVB we knee-jerked for after refusing to pay what Dortmund wanted for Sancho, which in itself is the single closest thing to a veto Ole has experienced at United (one I’m sure he probably agreed with anyway for the money quoted.)
So no I don’t agree with your naive outlook on the club. Keep trying though if you want.
Confirmed by Woodward at a shareholder meeting that they can. That's some serious confirmation bias right there.
I have never once claimed the scouting department are the ones to thank, I've simply said it's no miracle and not 100% on Ole as the entire club changed strategy in 2018, I mean changing from Mourinho to Ole/Phelan is part of that strategy you dope. I'm the one saying everyone deserves credit, you're the one trying to put it all on one bloke.
You though went full in, it's all about Ole. The club, Phelan, recruitment team have feck all to do with it, hell, Ole employed himself too.
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Honestly it’s funny at this stage, what’s your argument?Confirmed by Woodward at a shareholder meeting that they can. That's some serious confirmation bias right there.
I have never once claimed the scouting department are the ones to thank, I've simply said it's no miracle and not 100% on Ole as the entire club changed strategy in 2018, I mean changing from Mourinho to Ole/Phelan is part of that strategy you dope. I'm the one saying everyone deserves credit, you're the one trying to put it all on one bloke.
You though went full in, it's all about Ole. The club, Phelan, recruitment team have feck all to do with it, hell, Ole employed himself too.
It’s not all Ole’s doing because he ‘can’ in theory be veto’d?
That’s like saying the builder who’s done a first class job on your house doesn’t deserve the credit because his boss had the power to sack him but decided to let him get on with it.
In short, as pointed out hours ago, it was a flippant comment that he’s worked miracles however at the same time it’s not exactly inaccurate either considering he’s the one deciding who we sign
I don’t even know why you’ve used that and bothered with this tirade. I’m pretty sure you agree with me but we’re too far along now to acknowledge it.
I’d imagine the architect played a large part, together with the plumber and electrician, and not least the project manager; you’d think he by miracle just popped it up there all by himself.That’s like saying the builder who’s done a first class job on your house doesn’t deserve the credit because his boss had the power to sack him but decided to let him get on with it.
When you applaud him for his miracle work doing the entire house all by himself, coming up with the idea, drawings and everything; yet the project manager confirms he actually had help and was lead by blueprints, you’d call it nonsense and tell the project leader to stop lying and get his arse to Disneyland.
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Your overly literal response to that example explains this whole exchange.
Your shit analogy was quite fitting to sum it up I thought.
It is absolutely insane how much he set the club back.
I regret giving him so much time.
I regret giving him so much time.
LVG though Wummy, he even sold useful players that fecker.
Hernandez, Nani, Rafael replaced with Darmian, Depay & Falcao...
I forgot analogy’s are quite difficult for the overly literal.