They were all winners?
Christ
Rafael had the attitude, i was sorry we left him go.
We should've refused letting Keane go on the cheap, same with Zaha.
The true cost of the Mourinho era and how badly the club has been run
- Thread starter Bobcat
- Start date
Christ
Rafael had the attitude, i was sorry we left him go.
We should've refused letting Keane go on the cheap, same with Zaha.
The only quotes I could find once again don't disprove anything I've written:Ehm....Moyes was personally involved, speaking to both players on the phone over the summer, and you quite literally have a summer full of quotes from Moyes underlying the importance of trying to sign them until the end. Connecting the dots isn't all that complicated.
Pinning this solely on Woodward, and pretending that all Moyes did was hand him a list of mint players and all he heard back was how Woodward was confident of fixing it and that the players would be signing, no problems on the horizon, is pretty fecking absurd. Woodward had just taken on the role, you have a new manager who is insisting that both players are ready to join and that we should stick with trying to sign them until the end, and you expect Woodward to go against him? Good luck.
In terms of McTominay, at the time he wasn't ready and Mourinho used him to prove a point, like when he played him as a defender while leaving Bailly on the bench...The player he is today has very little to do with the way he was used under Mourinho.
“By the time we got to the end of the transfer window, we always thought we had a chance of getting Gareth Bale."
“We hoped we could talk him out of going to Real Madrid because it was already half done.
“We had offered more money, we tried to entice him. We did [have a helicopter ready] and we tried.”
Nowhere do those quotes state that it was Moyes and not Woodward who believed this. This is purely an assumption on your end. It's very possible they fueled each others' belief.
I never said blame was solely on Woodward. As you said, he was new at his job, which is EXACTLY the problem. The guy has been learning how to do his job over the course of 8 years at the biggest club in the world. How was that ever a good idea? I'm willing to bet if Gill was still here, this fiasco would not have happened in nearly the same way, Moyes or not. That's my whole point.
As for McTominay, once again, nothing but an opinion based on no fact. Just because a manager doesn't use a player the way YOU want them to be used doesn't mean that the manager doesn't think the player has talent.
I blame the parents but also the childminder they have employed.
Ok, so they are not the most loving and caring of parents and away from home a lot and needed someone they could trust to look after things at home.
Yes, they may love and trust the guy or even feel they owe him a debt of gratitude for helping them through a difficult pregnancy and birth that wasn't straightforward.
But keeping the obstetrician on as a nanny is not a healthy decision if you want a happy home life in the long term.
Especially if the kid is not the most well-behaved...well that can be fixed with good parenting skills, right?!
But what if none of the responsible adults know how to handle a spoiled brat or even just difficult situations faced in raising a child.
Not gonna be a happy home.
So what's the solution?
Hire a "Super Nanny" of course!
Someone who has the experience of dealing with dysfunctional family relationships. Simples!!
Only one problem...
(or maybe two if you count the fact that the parents not seeing any real problems, which the current nanny would have helped convince them of as well, as a problem in itself)
... presently employed nanny will not relinquish power easy.
Sorry got carried away,
basically saying, Glazers & Woodward are the problems.
D.o.F or equivalent needed asap.
Ok, so they are not the most loving and caring of parents and away from home a lot and needed someone they could trust to look after things at home.
Yes, they may love and trust the guy or even feel they owe him a debt of gratitude for helping them through a difficult pregnancy and birth that wasn't straightforward.
But keeping the obstetrician on as a nanny is not a healthy decision if you want a happy home life in the long term.
Especially if the kid is not the most well-behaved...well that can be fixed with good parenting skills, right?!
But what if none of the responsible adults know how to handle a spoiled brat or even just difficult situations faced in raising a child.
Not gonna be a happy home.
So what's the solution?
Hire a "Super Nanny" of course!
Someone who has the experience of dealing with dysfunctional family relationships. Simples!!
Only one problem...
(or maybe two if you count the fact that the parents not seeing any real problems, which the current nanny would have helped convince them of as well, as a problem in itself)
... presently employed nanny will not relinquish power easy.
Sorry got carried away,
basically saying, Glazers & Woodward are the problems.
D.o.F or equivalent needed asap.
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Then we would have needed to sign a long term striker the next summer? Because Martial ultimately would have proved he's not good enough for the role. We would be just delaying the inevitable.
Yes. They all had won considerably more than those that replaced them.They were all winners?
Christ
Rafael had the attitude, i was sorry we left him go.
We should've refused letting Keane go on the cheap, same with Zaha.
Mourinho era? Laughable indeed. What ails us today is the pointless romanticism of appointing Moyes. For all SAF did for our club, there was no need to oblige his choice. The other decision makers should have used their veto. It was sheer lunacy which is hurting us still now.
No it's not. Clubs from championship have won PL since then, it was just one poor season and we sacked him immediately. We spent lot if money to win PL in that time.
Only season we suffered because of that appointment was in 2013-14, after that it's a fresh start.
Don't think you got my point. The shroud of invincibility that was reason opponents used to get beaten mentally even before the ball was kicked, we lost it forever in that season of being managed by that fraud. We have not gained it since. Of course none of the managerial appointments have been right ones after that either but the damage was done by one appointment more than others. From champions we became a team which is there for the taking. The dip was expected after SAF, not the nosedive we went into.
We lost it because SAF retired and also we didn't keep Moyes long enough to say he is the reason for all the mess. It's just one season.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing though isn't it. Who would've thought Falcao would be shit. Every fan would've been happy for Hernandez to go and have him as a replacement.
Darmian was Italy's first choice right back at the 2014 World Cup, yes he was awful for us but at that time it wasn't a certainty that he'd be a bad signing.
The world cup in which Italy got KOed from the group stage? I mean, hardly an achievement? He was a starter in a past it then ultimately awful Italian generation.
I'm not saying it's an achievement but he had a decent tournament, won their player of the year. Unless you're an avid watcher of Serie A no one would've known for sure he was going to be as bad as he was. At that time he was worth a punt, Rafael was making a lot of mistakes.
I meant him being Italy's first right back or even being best Italian right back was hardly something worth noting because Italy at this period were crap.
The majority of LVG signings have failed here so it's not an issue of a single name or two. His whole transfer business was awful. I'll expect our scouts and manager to know better than fans when it comes to scouting names.
That is down to coaching. A good coach can increase these players value tenfold. As seen last season, MMM could have each gone for £100m and others players as well with good form they were in. Now it seems a lot of these players value has decreased. There is no consistency despite having quality players
The benches today really hammer this home.
No. We could have prevented becoming jokers overnight.
We spent close to billion after sacking Moyes and hired 3 managers. Ridiculous people still blame him.
Liverpool rose from shit levels, won PL, CL and are back to shit levels in that time.
Hired all the wrong managers. Starting with the worst of the lot. But it's more fashionable to name Mourinho in all the blame games.
Yeah so you named Moyes?
There isn't one person to blame for all this, there are so many and it starts with Woodward.
Again I named Moyes because he is appointment which made our castle crumble like a cookie. If it would have been Guardiola or Ancelotti or any freaking manager who had managed a top club in the last ten years then, we would have been at a different place now. Yes we would have dipped in all likelihood, but not at the rate which we did and neither to the lows which we did.
Had we appointed Pep, Klopp or any other top manager after Moyes, we wouldn't have crumbled. We made mistake after mistake, that's the reason. Us not competing for league has nothing to do with Moyes.
It shouldn't matter in the slightest what the fans or anyone outside of the club thinks, how it would be perceived or who took the piss. There are highly paid executives at the club who worked at one of the biggest clubs in world football for many years. It's their job to manage the transition. There are plenty of other clubs of similar stature to look at as an example.
Anyone who thought a straight like for like swap of Fergie for David Moyes was anything other than a gigantic backward step should have been sacked on the spot.
The decision to continue to place high reliance on the manager to build the squad has cost the club about £1bn in transfer fees with no real improvement in the quality of the playing group. It's gross mismanagement and the fact no heads have rolled as a result is staggering.
Blaming past managers for our current failings is silly as hell, specially when Jose actually won something with us. This reminds me of the "project manager" and 3 envelopes story, google it for those interested. Never ends well for the current incumbent.
The point wasn't that the club and it's executives should ignore transitions based on fan opinion, but that you're writing this with the benefit of hindsight, at the time when this was happening there were barely anyone who thought it was a cracking idea to revamp the entire structure of the club. This is at a time where Liverpools transfer committee was a laughing stock, even among their own fans, fast forward and Manchester United are morons for not jumping on the same path.
Fergie thought Moyes was the right choice to continue the traditions of the club, no matter how much he tries to distance himself from it now.
So much for connecting the dots then.
I'm not entirely sure where you think i have claimed that it was Moyes and not Woodward who believed it. The entire point here is that it sure as shit wasn't about Moyes being fooled by Woodward, as you've claimed multiple times. Moyes was heavily involved when it came to trying to convince Bale and Fabregas, which is hardly a surprise given how he's well known for taking an active part in potential transfers...He knew exactly what was going on and he could've abandoned the transfers at any time to focus on someone else, the blame doesn't lie with Woodward
On Bale:
"I just think all round he’s a terrific athlete and a brilliant footballer so I think that he would have fitted what we wanted but I couldn’t talk him out of it."
On Fabregas
“I remember him saying to me 'if I don't start the first game at Barcelona then I'll definitely be looking to join you' and he started the first game at Barcelona.
I've already quoted him on Fellaini, and why we waited so long to sign him.
A prophet once said, "no one man(ager) should have all that power".
He also said his greatest regret is not seeing himself perform live, so do with this as ye will
He also said his greatest regret is not seeing himself perform live, so do with this as ye will
It seems to me we’re addressing different questions here, all of which have been beaten to death over the last seven years (I was a lurker where until a few years ago, after RedIssue went full psycho), but it’s worth remembering what a fukking debacle all of Moyes, Van Gaal as Mourinho were.
The critical mistakes were appointing Moyes and extending Rooney’s contract. The former was in over his head and the latter, a club legend no doubt, was in no way the future for a club aspiring to greatness once again.
I didn’t expect much from Moyes and Van Gaal, but I have to admit I had very high hopes of Mourinho. But my god he fukked us good.
The critical mistakes were appointing Moyes and extending Rooney’s contract. The former was in over his head and the latter, a club legend no doubt, was in no way the future for a club aspiring to greatness once again.
I didn’t expect much from Moyes and Van Gaal, but I have to admit I had very high hopes of Mourinho. But my god he fukked us good.
Rooney didn't become an issue until much later. Fans were generally piss worried that he'd be on his way to Chelsea under Mourinho.
I'm done talking with you man, you act like a dickhead and don't actually read what's being said. You're connecting dots that don't exist in my post let alone anywhere else, with McTominay being an excellent example.
So much for connecting the dots then.
I'm not entirely sure where you think i have claimed that it was Moyes and not Woodward who believed it. The entire point here is that it sure as shit wasn't about Moyes being fooled by Woodward, as you've claimed multiple times. Moyes was heavily involved when it came to trying to convince Bale and Fabregas, which is hardly a surprise given how he's well known for taking an active part in potential transfers...He knew exactly what was going on and he could've abandoned the transfers at any time to focus on someone else, the blame doesn't lie with Woodward
On Bale:
"I just think all round he’s a terrific athlete and a brilliant footballer so I think that he would have fitted what we wanted but I couldn’t talk him out of it."
On Fabregas
“I remember him saying to me 'if I don't start the first game at Barcelona then I'll definitely be looking to join you' and he started the first game at Barcelona.
I've already quoted him on Fellaini, and why we waited so long to sign him.
Enjoy your evening.
I'd have to go over my notes on the timeline of the Rooney fiasco, but didn't he hold the club hostage to an outrage wage demand during the Moyes season? Or was that that during the Van Gaal reign? Wayne was well past his peak, noticeably slowing down becoming less and less effective with every match. We could have gotten probably 30m for him, when 30m was still a respectable sum of money.
But now you have me second-guessing myself as to when all this happened, but whenever it happened I distinctly recall there was a chorus of opposition here on the caf to the lovefest between Moyes and Rooney and then between Van Gaal and Rooney. Was is not something of a house joke on RedCafe that "my captain shall always play" -- no matter how shite he had become?
Personally, I really don't like the transfer committee approach. A large group with vetoes is only going to make the department clunky and lacking flexibility. I don't think that's a good approach at all.
A Director of Football working closely with the head coach is a much better structure as it's focussed and dedicates appropriate resources to what is the most important part of maintaining asset value in a football club.
At the time, I did want a structure change but that's completely irrelevant. Anyone with an opinion on it may be doing so now with the benefit of hindsight but back then would have done so without the benefit of knowing the inner workings of the club. Those in positions of authority had (or should have had) that knowledge.
They were in the ideal position to make the call and however you look at it made an absolutely abysmal series of decisions that has cost the club success and a lot of money.
Still don't know why people is still picking on Mourinho. His men management had some problem and it was best to part different route. That is, why else to discuss?
The 1st manager to blame, if any blame to be made, should be Fergi, because he mis-handled the transition badly. 2nd manager to be blamed, is Moyes, for setting a bad start into a deep hole that we are still struggling. 3rd manager to be blamed, and IMO the worst of all, is LVG. Not so much for his management style or result, those can be rectified, but for his recruitment. He recruited a large bunch of players that were useless and difficult to get rid of.
The 1st manager to blame, if any blame to be made, should be Fergi, because he mis-handled the transition badly. 2nd manager to be blamed, is Moyes, for setting a bad start into a deep hole that we are still struggling. 3rd manager to be blamed, and IMO the worst of all, is LVG. Not so much for his management style or result, those can be rectified, but for his recruitment. He recruited a large bunch of players that were useless and difficult to get rid of.
As I read it it's not so much about blaming Mourinho entirely as much as that his time at the club brought all of the structural issues at the club to a head.
Ole is still paying the price for many of his disastrous decisions as are the club, who at least seem to have become a bit less naive in it's recruitment operations.
We still aren't done paying, but Ole has done a really good job of biting the financial bullet he's had to eat while progressing the squad forward. He's not perfect, but he deserves a lot more respect than he gets.
Ole is still paying the price for many of his disastrous decisions as are the club, who at least seem to have become a bit less naive in it's recruitment operations.
We still aren't done paying, but Ole has done a really good job of biting the financial bullet he's had to eat while progressing the squad forward. He's not perfect, but he deserves a lot more respect than he gets.
You have to dig deeper than this, Woodward is the guy who is riding on the Glazers here. Manchester United in the last decade was Woodward's big project financially as the debt structure and it's financial model have been proposed in 2005.
The project needed someone who has highly reputation in sports industry to take the debt, then one of the share owner Malcolm Glazer agreed to take over with the help of his children. They appointed Woodward as the "mastermind" way before he is becoming executive vice-chairman in 2012.
Glazers are barely know about football, they are just reading the balance of it's business books every year to make any decision to run this football club. They have no interest in the trophy success for the club, that's why they are bad owners.
So, your theory leads you to believe that the Glazers are desperate for Manchester United to finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th... but 1st, nah.What's the point?
Basic math: above 4th doesn't mean 1st is a 'nah', it's your theory though not mine.. winning trophies is a bonus, not their aim. In fact, there's no theory in my previous post. You can even learn that from their wiki pages.
If you look at it without bias, the club was in trouble the day ronaldo left, replacing him with Valenica, obertan and Michael owen. Mind boggling. Fergie was looking for bargains all over the place and not spending what he should have done. as much as I can't stand woodward, he has spent on big names so not sure why fergie splashed the last few years only on RVP. Pity woodward was not in charge then as fergie could have used some big names. The team Fergie left behind needed replenishing, not the overhaul LVG gave it. it also needed a manager that could work with the senior players (Not moyes!) maybe someone like an anchelotti or mourinho, they could have got another 2 years out of the senior players. Mistakes all around and fingers to point all around, even at fergie.
LVG was advised by the UTD scouts that Darmian had no room to improve.
He bought Rojo and Blind (because of the Dutch obsession with left footed CB's) instead of going for VVD, which everyone in Holland rated, except him, as evidenced by LVG not giving VVD a single call up when he was in charge of the NT.
He had an over the hill Rooney, a Van Persie who never fully recovered from injury (clear as day for amyone that watched the Robben show) and he decided to loan a striker that had not played a single game after doing his ACL.
Depay, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Di Maria, etc. Getting it wrong 10+ times is an art. Yes, we'd much have preferred to keep Nani, Rafael, Hernandez, etc to the shit he brought in.
FFS, Shaw was the first signing that the summer and that deal was done and only had to be approved by LVG.
The man was an absolute disaster when it came to recruitment and he did not learn from his mistakes.
The reason we haven't done anything of note post SAF is because LVG flushed 300 million. Meanwhile City was buying KDB and Sterling and they're still reaping the benefits of those transfers today.
Mourinho's and Ole's signings have been pretty good, so I'm hopeful for the future.
This is a good thread because there are far, far too many football supporters who think -;
a) United have a bottomless pot of cash to spend - we don’t and I proved this in a thread of my own were I went over the books since 2013
b) Following on from a), the club WOULD have a bottomless pot of cash if the Glazers didn’t drain us dry - again, not true. Yes, the Glazers take dividends and yes we pay interest but none of it is HUGELY significant in terms of the overall net revenue and annual expenditure.
c) A transfer fee is the only “cost” of a player. People forget about the huge outlay we have made in wages over the last few seasons. I actually think our spiralling wage budget was actually hampering us far more than any lack of actual transfer budget.
a) United have a bottomless pot of cash to spend - we don’t and I proved this in a thread of my own were I went over the books since 2013
b) Following on from a), the club WOULD have a bottomless pot of cash if the Glazers didn’t drain us dry - again, not true. Yes, the Glazers take dividends and yes we pay interest but none of it is HUGELY significant in terms of the overall net revenue and annual expenditure.
c) A transfer fee is the only “cost” of a player. People forget about the huge outlay we have made in wages over the last few seasons. I actually think our spiralling wage budget was actually hampering us far more than any lack of actual transfer budget.
Fergie replaced Ronaldo with two signings.
Dimi Berbatov
and
Toni Valencia
He changed the dynamic of how we attacked down the right, delivering crosses and being less direct.
Berba and Roo scored so many goals under that new approach and led us to more league titles and another CL final.
Berba was signed straight after Fergie gave Ronaldo his word that he could leave the following summer.