The true cost of the Mourinho era and how badly the club has been run

[Kostov]

I wish this myth that van Gaal got rid of useful players would die. Look at what they all went on to when they left. All were the correct decision to sell.

He got rid of title winner and replaced them with Darmian, Rojo and similar. It would have been a non issue if he brought quality instead of worse.

 

[Grande]

I blame the parents but also the childminder they have employed.

Ok, so they are not the most loving and caring of parents and away from home a lot and needed someone they could trust to look after things at home.

Yes, they may love and trust the guy or even feel they owe him a debt of gratitude for helping them through a difficult pregnancy and birth that wasn't straightforward.

But keeping the obstetrician on as a nanny is not a healthy decision if you want a happy home life in the long term.

Especially if the kid is not the most well-behaved...well that can be fixed with good parenting skills, right?!
But what if none of the responsible adults know how to handle a spoiled brat or even just difficult situations faced in raising a child.
Not gonna be a happy home.
So what's the solution?
Hire a "Super Nanny" of course!
Someone who has the experience of dealing with dysfunctional family relationships. Simples!!

Only one problem...

(or maybe two if you count the fact that the parents not seeing any real problems, which the current nanny would have helped convince them of as well, as a problem in itself)
... presently employed nanny will not relinquish power easy.

Sorry got carried away,

basically saying, Glazers & Woodward are the problems.
D.o.F or equivalent needed asap.

Wonderful analogy. I adhere to the scool that if two theories have equal explanatory power, chose the most beautiful one.

‘Keeping the obstetrician as a nanny’

pure beauty!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I wish this myth that van Gaal got rid of useful players would die. Look at what they all went on to when they left. All were the correct decision to sell.

Myth my arse.

Van Gaal got rid of useful players like Nani, Rafael and Hernandez and replaced them with utter utter shit.
If you don’t think those three are useful players before we even get into the likes of Zaha and Evans then there is no helping you.
Plenty of useful players have left United and other big clubs down the years and never done much afterwards, that’s often how it goes, it’s much harder to perform in lesser teams. Hernandez was a sub, that was always his best position if you like, and he was an incredible sub, so a very useful player to have around.
Nani... we haven’t had a bloody right winger of any note since him, still.

 

[Ajr]

Myth my arse.

Van Gaal got rid of useful players like Nani, Rafael and Hernandez and replaced them with utter utter shit.
If you don’t think those three are useful players before we even get into the likes of Zaha and Evans then there is no helping you.
Plenty of useful players have left United and other big clubs down the years and never done much afterwards, that’s often how it goes, it’s much harder to perform in lesser teams. Hernandez was a sub, that was always his best position if you like, and he was an incredible sub, so a very useful player to have around.

I think we should have hired Solskjaer straight after Fergie, we may have not won anything more but it wouldn't have been a disaster like it was either with moyes and van gaal and we would be in a lot better place now.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Blaming past managers for our current failings is silly as hell, specially when Jose actually won something with us. This reminds me of the "project manager" and 3 envelopes story, google it for those interested. Never ends well for the current incumbent.

So if you bought a house that was falling to bits and you struggled to fix the repairs that you once felt were an easy fix, is it your fault? Is it not the previous owners fault for not rectifying them or putting them in a better position before they sold the house?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think we should have hired Solskjaer straight after Fergie, we may have not won anything more but it wouldn't have been a disaster like it was either with moyes and van gaal and we would be in a lot better place now.

We certainly should’ve been prepping someone for the role leading up to his retirement, just so that it would be an easier transition. I know we did that somewhat with Ole but it should have been more extensive so that person could just take the head coach reins.
Hindsight tell us Gill and Fergie’s (and Glazer’s) succession plans were as bad as you could dream up.

 

[lex talionis]

Can someone share with the rest of us, or at least me, what the financial windfall of winning the PL trophy is vs finishing in fourth place?

A big part of the problem with Wengerian, and now Glazerian, lack of ambition seems to come down to the understanding that finishing top four and thus being in the CL is not significantly worse off financially than winning the PL, and of course incurring the additional cost of pushing from fourth to first. If, of course, it’s true that too high a price is to be paid for the marginal financial benefit.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Can someone share with the rest of us, or at least me, what the financial windfall of winning the PL trophy is vs finishing in fourth place?

A big part of the problem with Wengerian, and now Glazerian, lack of ambition seems to come down to the understanding that finishing top four and thus being in the CL is not significantly worse off financially than winning the PL, and of course incurring the additional cost of pushing from fourth to first. If, of course, it’s true that too high a price is to be paid for the marginal financial benefit.

I know it’s minimal (comparatively speaking).
3.2 seconds typing into google found this:
https://www.sportingfree.com/football/premier-league-prize-money/

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I know it’s minimal (comparatively speaking).
3.2 seconds typing into google found this:
https://www.sportingfree.com/football/premier-league-prize-money/

Yeah but I don't believe the owners don't want to win things, for example:

• This season the CL winner will make at least €76m from UEFA
• This season United made just €15m + an extra €8m for for our Group Stage results.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Yeah but I don't believe the owners don't want to win things, for example:

• This season the CL winner will make at least €76m from UEFA
• This season United made just €15m + an extra €8m for for our Group Stage results.

winning/ getting further in the CL has always had a far bigger financial effect that the league.

 

[Stormrage101MUFC]

Unless the Glazers/Edward Woodward suddenly become competent directors I struggle to see how things get better. We're in a crapshoot with Woodward calling the shots.

Exactly. It was just as bad if not even worse during the Van Gaal era.

 

[lex talionis]

I know it’s minimal (comparatively speaking).
3.2 seconds typing into google found this:
https://www.sportingfree.com/football/premier-league-prize-money/

Much appreciated. This more or less confirms the top four trophy winnings thesis, which we can reasonably speculate we’re trapped in. Spending what it takes to go from fourth to first in the PL just isn’t worth it from a green eyeshades perspective.

Spending what it takes to go from a CL semi finalist to CL winner is worth it, however.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

winning/ getting further in the CL has always had a far bigger financial effect that the league.

Absolutely, but it also goes without saying that winning stuff is actually more beneficial financially than not, that also goes for Sponsorships and player fees due to being less "desperate".

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Much appreciated. This more or less confirms the top four trophy winnings thesis, which we can reasonably speculate we’re trapped in. Spending what it takes to go from fourth to first in the PL just isn’t worth it from a green eyeshades perspective.

Spending what it takes to go from a CL semi finalist to CL winner is worth it, however.

if purely based of prize money from the PL, I agree.

there will be implications in terms of sponsorship, ability to attract players, matchday revenue which would all increase if competing and winning the league rather than getting 3/4th.

although that’s going to be somewhat more difficult to measure and quantify, as it won’t just be based on one season.

whether that’s “worth” an additional £xm investment is the question to the money men?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

whether that’s “worth” an additional £xm investment is the question to the money men?

The risk of not investing though, is missing out on top 4 altogether*, it's almost impossible now to "do a Wenger" and do just enough. You pretty much have to invest like you fancy winning it even if you only want top 4.

*make no mistake, missing out on top 4 is a massive financial burden.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

The risk of not investing though, is missing out on top 4 altogether*, it's almost impossible now to "do a Wenger" and do just enough. You pretty much have to invest like you fancy winning it even if you only want top 4.

*make no mistake, missing out on top 4 is a massive financial burden.

I don’t disagree. In transfer fees and wages we should be constantly challenging.

 

[lex talionis]

if purely based of prize money from the PL, I agree.

there will be implications in terms of sponsorship, ability to attract players, matchday revenue which would all increase if competing and winning the league rather than getting 3/4th.

although that’s going to be somewhat more difficult to measure and quantify, as it won’t just be based on one season.

whether that’s “worth” an additional £xm investment is the question to the money men?

The non-prize money revenue, earned from sponsorships and merchandise sales, is significant and would be at risk should we remain mired where we’ve been the last several seasons. The Glazers have to maintain the appearance that the club is serious about winning trophies again. Once that appearance is shattered, we’re at serious risk of becoming the next Spurs, if that hasn’t already become the case.

 

[Acole9]

Myth my arse.

Van Gaal got rid of useful players like Nani, Rafael and Hernandez and replaced them with utter utter shit.
If you don’t think those three are useful players before we even get into the likes of Zaha and Evans then there is no helping you.
Plenty of useful players have left United and other big clubs down the years and never done much afterwards, that’s often how it goes, it’s much harder to perform in lesser teams. Hernandez was a sub, that was always his best position if you like, and he was an incredible sub, so a very useful player to have around.
Nani... we haven’t had a bloody right winger of any note since him, still.

But did we want to have a squad of useful players, two of which were clearly on a downward spiral in their careers. I certainly didn't.

I agree that the players that van Gaal signed were utter shit. I guess his spell in charge is always going to be scrutinised and each fan will have their own opinion.

 

[Tallis]

Can someone share with the rest of us, or at least me, what the financial windfall of winning the PL trophy is vs finishing in fourth place?

A big part of the problem with Wengerian, and now Glazerian, lack of ambition seems to come down to the understanding that finishing top four and thus being in the CL is not significantly worse off financially than winning the PL, and of course incurring the additional cost of pushing from fourth to first. If, of course, it’s true that too high a price is to be paid for the marginal financial benefit.

I am generally not inclined to defend the Glazers but in my humble opinion, it’s not a lack of ambition from the Glazers that is responsible for our perceived lack of investment. I think the real explanation is that they as owners run the club as a business and rely on it to fund themselves rather than follow the “tycoon enthusiast” model which Roman etc have followed where they invest their own money to help the club. With Man Utd now being listed, it also has to pay a dividend and basically fund its own spending etc.

So our spending is constrained by how much cash flow we can generate and maintaining a reasonable amount of leverage suitable for a listed company. Within the constraints of these factors, I believe Glazers have spent money to support our ambition. One can question the efficacy of that spending (which has been horrible until recently). But if we appreciate the type of owners the Glazers are (business owners and not enthusiasts), the current level of spending is what we can reasonably expect.

 

[adexkola]

if purely based of prize money from the PL, I agree.

there will be implications in terms of sponsorship, ability to attract players, matchday revenue which would all increase if competing and winning the league rather than getting 3/4th.

although that’s going to be somewhat more difficult to measure and quantify, as it won’t just be based on one season.

whether that’s “worth” an additional £xm investment is the question to the money men?

Look at Liverpool, penny pinching after winning a CL/PL. Definitely raises the question of how they weigh additional investment vs the benefits of winning trophies. For us supporters it's a no-brainer but I'd like to know how they do the cost benefit analysis behind the curtains.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

So if you bought a house that was falling to bits and you struggled to fix the repairs that you once felt were an easy fix, is it your fault? Is it not the previous owners fault for not rectifying them or putting them in a better position before they sold the house?

Such a poor analogy. Houses are inspected before being bought. If you bought a house and did not inspect or bought it anyway, that's on you.

 

[MancunianAngels]

I have said this on here before but United have never been a well run club.

Post War, we have had 2 managers that both built dynasties but have struggled badly outside of that. In fact, we weren't particularly well run under Fergie but his managerial ability kept us at the top.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Such a poor analogy. Houses are inspected before being bought. If you bought a house and did not inspect or bought it anyway, that's on you.

Little bit pedantic, no need to take it so seriously, it was a solid analogy as I was trying to highlight how a previous manager can easily be blamed for the current teams problems. Nothing is changed with a magic wand from a new manager. A new manager can't come in and just bulldoze his way through the club, just doesn't work like that. A manager will take time to put his own stamp on the club.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

Little bit pedantic, no need to take it so seriously, it was a solid analogy as I was trying to highlight how a previous manager can easily be blamed for the current teams problems. Nothing is changed with a magic wand from a new manager. A new manager can't come in and just bulldoze his way through the club, just doesn't work like that. A manager will take time to put his own stamp on the club.

No it was a lame analogy.

Here's a little story for you to read, every manager does it more or less but it can only take you so far. http://wikibon.org/wiki/v/Prepare_three_envelopes

 

[JPRouve]

Look at Liverpool, penny pinching after winning a CL/PL. Definitely raises the question of how they weigh additional investment vs the benefits of winning trophies. For us supporters it's a no-brainer but I'd like to know how they do the cost benefit analysis behind the curtains.

For me the first question is were they actually penny pinching. I think that very often football fans overestimate their club capacity to spend.

 

[adexkola]

For me the first question is were they actually penny pinching. I think that very often football fans overestimate their club capacity to spend.

This is valid as well. I would expect more of a club their size but who know what impact the pandemic has had on their finances.

 

[JPRouve]

This is valid as well. I would expect more of a club their size but who know what impact the pandemic has had on their finances.

Even before the pandemic. Clubs don't make that much money, none of the clubs that aren't sugar daddied can spend big every summer and when you consider the fact that for 18/19 Liverpool spent 140€ net, they paid it with gains that they made previous years and "borrowed" from future gains. And that's without considering any potential increase of their wage bill.

 

[croadyman]

Personally, I really don't like the transfer committee approach. A large group with vetoes is only going to make the department clunky and lacking flexibility. I don't think that's a good approach at all.

A Director of Football working closely with the head coach is a much better structure as it's focussed and dedicates appropriate resources to what is the most important part of maintaining asset value in a football club.

At the time, I did want a structure change but that's completely irrelevant. Anyone with an opinion on it may be doing so now with the benefit of hindsight but back then would have done so without the benefit of knowing the inner workings of the club. Those in positions of authority had (or should have had) that knowledge.

They were in the ideal position to make the call and however you look at it made an absolutely abysmal series of decisions that has cost the club success and a lot of money.

Yeah I wish our board was more open to a DOF type structure but certain they have absolutely zero intention of moving away from this transfer committee thing despite how slowly they seem to operate, so we will just have to get used to it and accept the lengthy process of any deals we do.

 

[justsomebloke]

Saw this on reddit and really thought it was a worthwhile read

Explains in depth how badly our finances have been handled the past few years and why we still have a hangover from some of the deal we made

Excellent article, thanks for sharing.

 

[wolvored]

I know it’s minimal (comparatively speaking).
3.2 seconds typing into google found this:
https://www.sportingfree.com/football/premier-league-prize-money/

feck me after all that we finish 6th

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But did we want to have a squad of useful players, two of which were clearly on a downward spiral in their careers. I certainly didn't.

Erm, yes, getting rid of useful players, replacing them with useless ones and it costing a net fortune is the biggest reason we're in this mess. It resulted in Mourinho inheriting a much worse squad than the one LVG took over, and 200m euros missing from the transfer kitty.

Mourinho at least spent a net fortune to improve the squad, although admittedly not near enough, and Ole's spell has now spent a net fortune to improve the squad more than any manager since SAF. You spend to improve, not to go fecking backwards, which is what LVG did.

 

[rollingstoned1]

Good article but on the subject of apportioning blame on Mourinho a lot of the moves he made were also due to LVG and the board in their lack of vision in the kind of manager they want at the helm. In a way, Woodward showing Mourinho some spine was both an indictment and a plus as it showed that we have the self-awareness to at least veto the manager's requests. In particular i felt a lot of the players from Fergie's era would have proved to be a damn sight more useful than any overpriced and overrated player who we signed and then sold for a loss eg rafael, Nani, Evans, Chicharito, Welbeck. You don't make that many wholesale changes in a short period of time.