Ronaldo as a 9 with at least one wide forward is probably fine. The question is how wide forwardy Littbarski can be with Gerets playing a reserved role to allow Der Kaiser to join the midfield
2021 Sheep Draft QF - Sjor Bepo vs. Chesterlestreet
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Well, he normally did have a partner up front which allowed him to roam around, again he can do a lone striker(in his own way) role no problem and it will still be a damn good player but when we talk about alien version i definitely prefer him in a role where he has more freedom.
as my young padawan said, a lot depends on whats around him. In last decade or so the only really elite n9 was/is Lewa while all the best players, elite goalscorers are wide forwards so if Fenomeno played now id bet my life he would be in that "wide" role while someone like Firmino/Benzema would "lead" the line.
feck off, my master
Tbh this was the reason why I voted for Bepo. I really like Chesters core, but comparing the two attacking units I liked Bepo’s more and I can see if functioning close to its optimal pontential.
Litti is closer to a midfielder than wide forward and I’d usually associate him with a more of a wide midfielder in 4-4-2, or right winger in 4-2-3-1(duh). Zagallo too is more of a facilitator and player that brings balance than a goal scoring threat. Especially with Facchetti as overlapped I’d more likely use an inside forward who has the tendency to peel wide (let’s say Puskas) rather than natural winger.
Yea, you and your padawan
make a good point, however it depends a lot on the set up. Modern game sees most goal scoring players nominally starting wide because there is more space and they pull defenders wide, which makes the #9 more of a facilitator. However it’s not only Lewa, you also missed Suarez and now Haaland - a complete #9 ala Fenomeno in today’s game IMO would still play as a #9. He will drop deep, peel wide and so forth but he is much more dangerous as a central player than a wide forward for me, even by today’s standards.Yeah missed Suarez, Haaland feck no. He looks brilliant, most likely will end up there but to mention him in this context is insane. So back to Suarez, thats an interesting one but IMO biggest qualities Suarez has apart from his mentality is his game of the ball while Fenomeno is the opposite. You want your most talented player on the ball as much as possible in most dangerous position, in a modern game thats from that wide attacking spot. The only way i see Fenomeno in the middle if he went to Pep who maybe does a Messi on him and turns him into dominant F9 rather then facilitator but thats the only way i could see Fenomeno centrally in the modern gameYea, you and your padawan
Agree.Yea, you and your padawan
What we are saying about Ronaldo alongside other forwards is true, but can equally apply to pretty much every other attacker too. But similarly he’s arguably as good as it gets as a one-man attack. For instance, give him the ball up top with a rack of defenders around him and no team-mates, he’ll likely make a better fist of that situation than anyone else in the history of the game. We saw that often enough with Inter.
What I've seen from Facchetti indicates he liked to move inside a lot - so viewing the left side *in isolation*, I think Zagallo would be a fitting partner, as they can flexibly interchange. But the ideal offensive balance as a whole is another matter.
The more this discussion goes, the more I can imagine pre-injury Ronaldo as a Cristiano-esque speed-dribbling monster scorer from the flank in a contemporary 4-3-3. (But still as a great CF too.)
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You are a man of fine taste, sir.
Who specifically?
But i stand firm on this one, in a modern game the most talented(on the ball) attackers will either play "wide"(like pretty much every modern attacking great) or in a dominant F9 role, otherwise you are wasting their talent.
Regarding Inter, i watched plenty of games there where he got isolated and couldnt get into a game only to produce moment of magic out of nowhere. Too me, that isnt playing to his strenghts thats pure luck in which you get bailed out by a genius.
How did Barcelona use Ronaldo in his monster season there (formation, role)?
Most of the greats look better together with other attackers than in isolation. Romario was optimised with a Bebeto, Ronaldo, Laudrup or Stoichkov buzzing around him. Messi looks infinitely better with multiple options around him for Barcelona, compared to the often lonely furrow he ploughs for Argentina. Cristiano hit his most devastating form alongside Benzema. Henry hit his best form next to Bergkamp and had his best international tournament with Dugarry.
For sure if I was building a team purely around Ronaldo I’d throw in a bunch of Brazilians beginning with R on a similar wavelength for him to cause chaos alongside. But equally if your game plan like Chester’s here is a really hard-working midfield then he’s as good an attacker as you’d find for this gig.
think we are talking about different things, im talking strictly about his role not the quality or share number of supporting cast. For example, if Van Basten is my striker i dont want another one next to him or interchanging when it comes to leading the line.
Also, i never said he is a bad fit or anything, he would be pretty damn good but IMO it isnt the best use of him.
was a weird team IMO from the little i saw, pretty fluid front 3/4 at times with old Stoichkov playing more centrally then usual and Geovanni/Pizzi playing behind Fenomeno though they were often most advanced in the team so in theory it was a lone striker, in reality not so much.
Litti did have a 1 in 2 record for Koln between 81 and 85 but I'm not sure exactly where he played. I think I would just buy Chester's setup if Gerets could bomb on and let him cut in.
Find me someone better, and I'll take him (if he's available).
This "partner" business is a bit puzzling to me, to be honest.
I'm not saying that I'm using him 100% ideally in terms of what his absolutely best role would be. But I don't see why he - of all strikers in history - would need a designated "partner".
ETA I mean, even if he had been isolated up front in my setup (which he clearly isn't), he'd still be a pretty plausible candidate for a "one-man attack" of some kind.
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thats exactly what i was saying though - its not the best use of him but he will still be great.
Fair enough.
Simple point: I don't see how I could've made a better use of him given my options.
And I really don't see why I would want to use him any differently going forward either - as "the best use of him" would mean building everything around him, and...why would you do that given that you have (potentially) several other GOATs at your disposal, etc.
I was talking about Fenomeno in general not regarding your team/squad
Another question would be (somewhat interesting for us nerds):
Given my XI in this match - this exact formation, everything else staying the same: Who would you replace Ronaldo with to strengthen the team?
Same position, same basic role - you can't change the setup in any way, just replace Ronaldo with another player in exactly the same setup.
Given my XI in this match - this exact formation, everything else staying the same: Who would you replace Ronaldo with to strengthen the team?
Same position, same basic role - you can't change the setup in any way, just replace Ronaldo with another player in exactly the same setup.
With 4 great options outside, it'd have to be someone with a great header. And of course, you'd need someone capable of making those decisive quick runs after being fed by Rivera's through balls. Perhaps Van Basten. If looking for a lesser Goaty name, George Weah looks perfect for that team.
But Fenomeno and Rivera in itself looks like a match made in heaven.
Van Basten.
Ideally id play Fenomeno in Liti role and someone else up front though aware this draft isnt ideal for planning.
I know, mate - and zero antagonism from me (honest). I just find it interesting - Ronaldo is an extremely interesting player. Is he overrated - or is he actually underrated? Where does he fit in? He doesn't really fit snugly in any category, really.I was talking about Fenomeno in general not regarding your team/squad
Would people buy that in a draft context, though?
I wouldn't replace Littbarski till the final. Absolutely love that flank with Gerets.
He was at his best running at opposition CB's who would both shit their pants centrally as a number 9. Ask Stam in that semifinal at WC 1998. Don't see any issues and I would always give him pure striker role whether in today's game or like he did before.
Maybe add a bit more goalscoring threat from wide areas (Litti is perfectly fine though) or give him another goalscoring partner upfront.
Agree about van Basten. Batistuta would be pretty good also.
Maybe add a bit more goalscoring threat from wide areas (Litti is perfectly fine though) or give him another goalscoring partner upfront.
Agree about van Basten. Batistuta would be pretty good also.
Good shout
Hm - yeah, but you wouldn't replace Ronaldo with Weah if you actually wanted to win a draft match, would you?
I agree he'd be a good fit given the overall setup, of course - but in terms of draft tactics, no way. Van Basten - yes. That might do.
Why would you even want to replace Fenomeno. Zagallo definitely needs to be upgraded. Fecking announce that you will go for CR if available and anyone picking him is heading for a block and that is the draft won.
Adds the additional goal threat and Goat heading. Or let's all vote against @Pat_Mustard and get you Pele for that free left role to get the best out of Fenomeno with a great partner as Bepo demands. Again, gets you a goat header too.
Yep - I lack that if we're talking big scorers.
Littbarski has decent numbers. Zagallo less so.
Rivera's numbers are pretty decent if you consider him a midfielder - less so if you consider him an attacker.
On the whole I'd say I have enough of a goal threat across the XI, but I could always do with more.
Facchetti and Beckenbauer are both potential goal scorers (for defenders). Van Hanegem was also good for the odd goal.
No idea, probably not that well though we did something similar in this draft and it turned out well though im aware its a star struck team so not the best example. Anyways, next time i get Fenomeno im doing it so we will see
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/coronavirus-champions-league-qf-sjor-invictus-vs-moby.454182/
I wouldn't - just a thought experiment.
Thanks for that, my bad and stand corrected. That is a great performance against the whole Dutch backline, not just Stam then. He was being double marked as soon as he got the ball, about 8 or 9 fouls (3 from the back) and he still had a brilliant goal, forced a great safe from that long range shot he created by himself, missed 1 on 1 after an absolute failure to set up an offside trap with last ditched tackle from Davids, etc.... Oh, and that run.
But, yeah, pretty much best you could do against peak version of him and Stam didn't had Nesta kind of game there.
In any case, I want him centrally and don't see any reason to put him wide football being changed or not. The way he played he constantly pushed down and dragged defenders along, so why would you eliminate that part by putting him wide. Use that and put more firepower in wide areas imo.
Replacing Fenomeno is mental, he’s the best #9 in the game.
As others pointed you need to add goal scoring options from wide areas or #10. In terms of actual fit, it just doesn’t seem the best “fit” for Fenomeno in terms of supporting cast. Not necessarily better players but in terms of cast I’d probably have Seeler, Muller, Law, Batistuta and Van Basten as better stylistic fits.
Littbarski had 4 seasons with 1:2 goal/game ratio.
Watched a bit more of that Holland game (feckin Bepo). Yeah, he would have zero problems operating and attacking from the wide position, something like Mbappe does.
He played a lot as SS during the time next to Allofs. From memory Koln played in 3-5-2, whereas when he played for the NT in a wider role (4-3-3) his output was usually 1 in 3 or 1 in 4.
Like him a lot, he is underrated usually in drafts, but again for me he's more of a provider rather than primary goal threat.
If Ronaldo was playing for Barcelona, he would be playing as the main striker or a false winger depending the quality of his teammates.
There is still a lot of coaches who likes tactical system with 3 central defenders, especially in Italy: in this case, he would be one of the two strikers unless they go for a 343.
In the late 1990s, the 442 was really a popular tactical system and the duo Romario/Ronaldo was a joy to watch.
Prime Ronaldo was often attracted by the heart of the game so I like the idea of having another striker capable to occupy the penalty area when he is moving far away from the penalty area.
There is still a lot of coaches who likes tactical system with 3 central defenders, especially in Italy: in this case, he would be one of the two strikers unless they go for a 343.
In the late 1990s, the 442 was really a popular tactical system and the duo Romario/Ronaldo was a joy to watch.
Prime Ronaldo was often attracted by the heart of the game so I like the idea of having another striker capable to occupy the penalty area when he is moving far away from the penalty area.
I reckon with a suitably attacking full-back on his side he could still be a big goal threat.