In the long run, Spurs, Leicester, and Everton are not the teams that have overtaken Arsenal. The teams that have overtaken Arsenal are Chelsea and Manchester City. It's particularly obvious in the case of City, since they literally bought or acquired a bunch of Arsenal starters.
Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only
- Thread starter rcoobc
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This kind of reminds me of the Knicks. A franchise that isn't very good and almost don't care about not being very good.
Who said anything about other clubs? The question was posed about Manchester United, and what you'd prefer, League or Champions league. Personally I value the league higher, but that doesn't mean others can't value the CL higher.
There's also a missunderstanding regarding how I used the word "should". By "should" I don't mean in terms of "this is the only valid way and anything else is wrong or less valuable", rather that this would be the most purist way, much like a "real hattrick" is scored with the head, left and right foot. The pursuit of perfection. The ideal scenario. Winning trebles is obviously not something that can be done with consistency.
But based on current UEFA rules it wouldn’t be them that made the final decision it would be CAS and as we see on quite a few occasions UEFA and indeed FIFA have tried to enforce their rule book only to loose out.
On principles. The world cup, fa cup, euros etc are just event. Which the owner of the event in this case the uefa invites teams across europe to participate. They can decide not to invite for whatever reason.
Just because there are qualifiers, arbitrations, coefficient doesnt mean you can barge in there uninvited. If the uefa thinks X club isnt playing by their rules, they can get banned.
That's in theory at least. And these 12 clubs arent exactly blameless. They're straight not adhering to the rules and tells the rest to feck off, why should the FAs and the UEFA and FIFA play nice when they dont.
Yeah, that's absolute bollocks. Then we wonder why international players don't "dream" about playing for us as much as they do Real Madrid or Barcelona. It has always been about European football and winning the EC/CL, winning league titles is not enough.
Of course I'm not downplaying how major the domestic leagues are, but we are a club that has underachieved in the CL, compared to our league performances.
I'm not talking about a player experience, i'm talking as a fan.
Tell Liverpool fans winning a league title wasn't enough last year.
For me as a fan the domestic league is the biggest prise of all.
What sort of rivalries will develop between these clubs now they'll be playing on a regular basis? Due to our past dealings we've probably annoyed half the clubs in the league.
If I were UEFA and the Premier League, I'd be frantically trying to negotiate. All the threats of bans cannot happen, at least not without a lengthy legal process. I like the idea simply because football as much as any other thing, is business now. The business men of these clubs have a made a fantastic business decision. Every other thing is secondary.
Negotiate. That's the word. And stop with the media witch hunt.
Negotiate. That's the word. And stop with the media witch hunt.
The Champions League group stage is boring boring boring. Even when it's hit or miss that we're going to get through.
I even think the hunt for the top 4 has been affected. They need to find a better solution.
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If you actually think this was a serious consideration by the SL, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Clubs are equally corrupt, who do you think lobbies UEFA for all the format changes fans claim to hate so much?
It's nothing but a power struggle among the establishment.
Get rid of the independent regulatory body, so now the clubs can have a monopoly on corruption themselves
I suppose it's the "natural" evolution under capitalism: treat everything like a private business to maximize profits.
Sport is based on fair competition and merit?
Too bad, investors don't much care for those principles as they might negatively affect their bottom line.
Just to clarify, you think the ESL is "fair competition"?
And yet we lost to Basaksehir, Wolfsburg, PSV, Valencia and Basel in the last four editions we have played in.
I'd also like to point out that nowhere in their own branding or statements is it called the "European" Super League...
https://thesuperleague.com/
https://thesuperleague.com/
It's just not going to happen
They will most likely be split between the 20 competing teams; just not any other "organizer" like UEFA to take a cut. Everything goes to the clubs. It's a great system in theory, but we will see.
UEFA is corrupt as feck and they sweating over potentially loosing the CL cash cow is the only good thing in this I am certain about.
I'd say "stupid" is the right word for it.
At least we won’t have to play against a parked bus every week?
In all seriousness though, I don’t even mind the idea if you had to qualify for it. Football should always be about qualification & never about invitation.
In all seriousness though, I don’t even mind the idea if you had to qualify for it. Football should always be about qualification & never about invitation.
Great post. Football has been broken for the best part of this century if not all of it. I'd add that even in the unlikely event of a minnow doing well (and these days minnows are usually clubs who used to be huge back in 90s) they will be torn apart by the big clubs shortly after. Ajax, Monaco, Dortmund have in recent years shocked Europe by going far in CL, all of them lost basically all their best players within two years from doing that with most going in the first year. These days achievement for clubs outside the big 12 (or 15) is making it to top 4 and going past the group stage of CL.
Maybe it's been covered somewhere and I've missed it, but I don't really understand how qualification for the Super League would work. The 15 'founding members' are fairly simple, they leave CL/EL behind them and go all in on ESL. But what about the remaining 5 teams?
Are teams who normally play in CL really going to drop that for a chance that might only last one season in ESL? I think UEFA can really hamper TSL by putting a 3-year ban from CL/EL for any team entering TSL. Because none of the 'smaller' teams will want to risk 2 years without european football for a single season in ESL, imo. Or will it end up with being just the founding 15 (12?) playing each other every season? I can definitly see that becoming boring in the long run if that's the case.
Are teams who normally play in CL really going to drop that for a chance that might only last one season in ESL? I think UEFA can really hamper TSL by putting a 3-year ban from CL/EL for any team entering TSL. Because none of the 'smaller' teams will want to risk 2 years without european football for a single season in ESL, imo. Or will it end up with being just the founding 15 (12?) playing each other every season? I can definitly see that becoming boring in the long run if that's the case.
Quoting myself from the other thread as I think this thread is more suitable.
Er... the uefa split the pie all across europe. Teams like hapeol tel aviv gets represented and as less likely as they can win the CL they are represented.
What will this new league offers to the rest of Europe? Nil. Zilch. Feck all
Look at the bright side, without the "big" 12 they will have a higher chance of winning it
I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but Corriere della Serra interviewed Bayern's CEO Rummenigge. I thought it's an interesting read:
Kalle Rummenigge, CEO of Bayern Munich and Agnelli's predecessor at the helm of the ECA: why did it come to this?
"We had been talking about it for ten years and we always decided to keep the existing model. Then the coronavirus damaged all of European football, especially the big teams, which lost a lot without fans at the stadium. Some clubs thought it was a good time to make a Super League. And a big mess was born...".
The methods are striking. President Ceferin had very harsh words against Agnelli, what do you think?
"I am sorry that what happened happened, because they have always had a friendly relationship and have collaborated well. The important thing now is to resume a certain dialogue. My hope is that we can still find a solution, because the Super League damages all of European football. And we have to avoid that.
What is the solution?
"The solution is to reduce costs. With the Super League the clubs are trying to solve the problem of debts, which have worsened with the pandemic. But the way cannot be to collect more and more and pay more and more players and agents. We need to cut back a bit, not put more on the table. We have overspent: everyone, no one excluded. It's time to make football less arrogant.
Is bringing forward the Super Champions League a possibility?
"No, the 2024 one cannot be brought forward because the marketing rights have been sold. The reforms are confirmed from 2024: on Friday, even Agnelli agreed.
Doesn't it seem serious to you that the president is working against the interests of the association he represents?
"Unfortunately I wanted to talk to him, but I couldn't get him on the phone. I don't know his motivations and without knowing them I don't want to criticise him. Maybe there's a reason I don't know: maybe I can talk to him and understand it better.
Are you surprised that Inter are joining the Super League as well as Juve and AC Milan?
"There are rumours that Inter have big financial problems and maybe they think they can solve them this way. The revenue they are talking about for the Super League seems enormous, but I don't know if in the long run the problems will be solved. I don't believe that. You can't collect more and more money to compensate for the expenses.
UEFA has also made its mistakes, don't you think?
"The market exploded in the year of Neymar, but we were already on the wrong track and it is not the fault of UEFA and FIFA. Now we have a great opportunity to find solutions to return to a more rational football. All companies in Italy, Japan, Germany or the USA think about reducing costs: only in football do they think they can solve everything by increasing revenue.
Do you expect to play in the Champions League in August without Real, Juventus and Liverpool?
"I sincerely hope not, I find it hard to imagine. Without twelve big teams, the competition is damaged.
Can you confirm that Bayern are not in the Super League?
"We're not in it because we don't want to be. We are happy to play in the Bundesliga, a 'bread and butter' business, as the English say. We are happy to play in the Champions League and we don't forget the responsibility towards our fans, who are generally against such a reform. And we also feel a responsibility towards football in general.
With a billion in debt like Barcelona, is it more difficult to make certain choices?
"We fortunately don't have these debts".
Is the choice of English teams due to American ownership?
"Yes, because in Europe you spend a lot and maybe you don't win. In the United States, the main thing is to make money.
Liverpool coach Klopp is a historical enemy of the Super League. If he were to come to Bayern it would be a symbolic blow, wouldn't it?
"We haven't decided on the coach yet, let's win the league first and then decide what to do. He has certainly spoken out against his club...".
Kalle Rummenigge, CEO of Bayern Munich and Agnelli's predecessor at the helm of the ECA: why did it come to this?
"We had been talking about it for ten years and we always decided to keep the existing model. Then the coronavirus damaged all of European football, especially the big teams, which lost a lot without fans at the stadium. Some clubs thought it was a good time to make a Super League. And a big mess was born...".
The methods are striking. President Ceferin had very harsh words against Agnelli, what do you think?
"I am sorry that what happened happened, because they have always had a friendly relationship and have collaborated well. The important thing now is to resume a certain dialogue. My hope is that we can still find a solution, because the Super League damages all of European football. And we have to avoid that.
What is the solution?
"The solution is to reduce costs. With the Super League the clubs are trying to solve the problem of debts, which have worsened with the pandemic. But the way cannot be to collect more and more and pay more and more players and agents. We need to cut back a bit, not put more on the table. We have overspent: everyone, no one excluded. It's time to make football less arrogant.
Is bringing forward the Super Champions League a possibility?
"No, the 2024 one cannot be brought forward because the marketing rights have been sold. The reforms are confirmed from 2024: on Friday, even Agnelli agreed.
Doesn't it seem serious to you that the president is working against the interests of the association he represents?
"Unfortunately I wanted to talk to him, but I couldn't get him on the phone. I don't know his motivations and without knowing them I don't want to criticise him. Maybe there's a reason I don't know: maybe I can talk to him and understand it better.
Are you surprised that Inter are joining the Super League as well as Juve and AC Milan?
"There are rumours that Inter have big financial problems and maybe they think they can solve them this way. The revenue they are talking about for the Super League seems enormous, but I don't know if in the long run the problems will be solved. I don't believe that. You can't collect more and more money to compensate for the expenses.
UEFA has also made its mistakes, don't you think?
"The market exploded in the year of Neymar, but we were already on the wrong track and it is not the fault of UEFA and FIFA. Now we have a great opportunity to find solutions to return to a more rational football. All companies in Italy, Japan, Germany or the USA think about reducing costs: only in football do they think they can solve everything by increasing revenue.
Do you expect to play in the Champions League in August without Real, Juventus and Liverpool?
"I sincerely hope not, I find it hard to imagine. Without twelve big teams, the competition is damaged.
Can you confirm that Bayern are not in the Super League?
"We're not in it because we don't want to be. We are happy to play in the Bundesliga, a 'bread and butter' business, as the English say. We are happy to play in the Champions League and we don't forget the responsibility towards our fans, who are generally against such a reform. And we also feel a responsibility towards football in general.
With a billion in debt like Barcelona, is it more difficult to make certain choices?
"We fortunately don't have these debts".
Is the choice of English teams due to American ownership?
"Yes, because in Europe you spend a lot and maybe you don't win. In the United States, the main thing is to make money.
Liverpool coach Klopp is a historical enemy of the Super League. If he were to come to Bayern it would be a symbolic blow, wouldn't it?
"We haven't decided on the coach yet, let's win the league first and then decide what to do. He has certainly spoken out against his club...".
In principle a slimmed down European competition makes sense. Admitting the early stages of the CL are boring as feck doesn’t mean you hate football
Sure some clubs could be corrupted too, but that’s another issue. Truth is, when FIFA and UEFA presidents, among many other high rank officials, both found guilty of corruption in court, which involves over hundreds of millions of bribery, they are just totally disgusting and deserves a big feck off.If you actually think this was a serious consideration by the SL, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Clubs are equally corrupt, who do you think lobbies UEFA for all the format changes fans claim to hate so much?
It's nothing but a power struggle among the establishment.
Get rid of the independent regulatory body, so now the clubs can have a monopoly on corruption themselves
I suppose it's the "natural" evolution under capitalism: treat everything like a private business to maximize profits.
Sport is based on fair competition and merit?
Too bad, investors don't much care for those principles as they might negatively affect their bottom line.
Isn't the new Champions League proposals basically the Super League in almost everything but name?
All they have to do is allow relegation and I'd be much happier. A natural balance will occur in time - even if Arsenal and Spurs have an unfair head start on teams like Leicester.
I understand the reasoning for wanting the Super League, and I even agree that the game needs to change to engage youngsters - but the current proposals are elitist/uncompetitive and the audacity and timing they've gone about announcing it has highlighted the type of scum these people are.
I understand the reasoning for wanting the Super League, and I even agree that the game needs to change to engage youngsters - but the current proposals are elitist/uncompetitive and the audacity and timing they've gone about announcing it has highlighted the type of scum these people are.
Fantastic interview, very straight forward.
In format maybe but it’s much larger than what ESL proposals are. For all the hysterical reaction I think we’ll end up with ESL with amendments in terms of who qualifies and how.
Maybe two leagues with top four of each going on to form the last 8 of the knockout rounds.
Sorry that's a misstype.
I meant it's boring even when I'm not sure if we'll get through or not
They hadn't won a league title in 3 decades. The comparison makes no sense.
This year the group stage was anything but boring. I doubt you'd be saying that if we didn't bottle it and qualified.
I'd love the Champions League to go in the opposite direction to this 'super league'. Strong Dutch and Portugese clubs, for example, would strengthen the competion and make the group stages less boring. In the 90s the group stages weren't boring - remember playing IFK Gothenburg? They were a real threat because they were able to keep more of the good Swedish players. Jeopardy is good.
This super league will just result in more power to a few clubs, and the new league will get boring as teams will get bored of beating Spurs and maybe even us - teams who'll be like the Newcastle of the super league, uninterested in improving, just happy to rake in the cash.
The sheer arrogance to expect clubs, both at home and abroad, to feed super league clubs with talent - whether it's a Modric, Cristiano Ronaldo or Luke Shaw - while closing the door on them completely, basically saying we don't want to share a pitch with your like, isn't something I can support at all.
This super league will just result in more power to a few clubs, and the new league will get boring as teams will get bored of beating Spurs and maybe even us - teams who'll be like the Newcastle of the super league, uninterested in improving, just happy to rake in the cash.
The sheer arrogance to expect clubs, both at home and abroad, to feed super league clubs with talent - whether it's a Modric, Cristiano Ronaldo or Luke Shaw - while closing the door on them completely, basically saying we don't want to share a pitch with your like, isn't something I can support at all.
What's different to being snapped up by the biggest CL teams? The top CL teams always hoover up the talent coming through. It's always happened, even back in time the biggest clubs signed the best players. What differenmce does it really make if it's a ESL team doiung it in the future or a CL team doing it now?
It worked when the PL was set up. maybe it will work this time.
Exclusivity is the whole point of this enterprise, though
Yup, and it's appalling.
It's the immunity or parachute qualifications for big clubs who fail to qualify through the league that sticks out to me because that portion of the Super League's plan is likely what it causing the biggest uproar. If the Champions League end up having a similar safety net for the big clubs, then teams like Barcelona could transition from one successful period to the next without ever losing CL revenue, which is good for UEFA because huge marketable teams like Barcelona will likely remain successful no matter what. Tell me how that differs from the no pro-reg that the Super League is trying to sell us?
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Good Twitter thread on (some of) the flaws in the SL from a finance perspective.