Andrea Pirlo - Juventus manager

[JPRouve]

They quite apparently thought a substantial gain in social media following was worth abandoning an even, well-constructed quality team.
Don't you know the young people don't follow football games anymore, just watch clips on their mobile phones? If Agnelli and Perez are to believed?

I don't have an issue with the social media side of things, it's important for the long term development of a club like Juventus who has the potential to be far closer to the top from a commercial standpoint but Ronaldo isn't the player for that because you need to target younger people, people that will follow the club for the next decade, Ronaldo is the hero of an "older" generation and will be associated with Real Madrid until the end of time. It makes even less sense when Ronaldo didn't fit with their on field project, he is great and has been prolific but his contribution is hollow because it didn't make the team perform at a higher level.
And where are they now, they will never get their money back, they didn't elevate their profile and haven't been more successful. They also played some of the worst football in Europe since 2018.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Would it even make sense for Pogba to move back to Juventus now that they are not winning the league every year while United appear to be on the cusp of maturing into a team capable of fighting for trophies on all fronts from next season?

Yep can't see it personally. I think he never considered going back to Juve anyway, he wants Madrid if he does leave.

I think Pogba will probably leave on a free to Madrid, or sign to stay here as he does seem happy. As you say the team is on the up where as Madrid aren't in great shape either.

 

[giorno]

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Saw this on reddit. Why did Sarri call them untrainable? I don't recall he had any issues with the team. Can the Juve people explain?

Sarri was sacked by the players. And it's something both he and Pirlo mentioned, this group of players struggle to assimilate new ideas. They sacked Allegri, but couldn't take him out of the squad

Any [insert dominant team] still needs its fair of share of good investment to keep the level high. Juventus would have still struggled with any other experienced manager IMHO this year.

Eh, it's still the best squad in the league ultimately. A good manager and they probably win the league anyways, or at least challenge Inter for it. Their problem all season long was mentality and lack of urgency

 

[kouroux]

Sarri was sacked by the players. And it's something both he and Pirlo mentioned, this group of players struggle to assimilate new ideas. They sacked Allegri, but couldn't take him out of the squad

Eh, it's still the best squad in the league ultimately. A good manager and they probably win the league anyways, or at least challenge Inter for it. Their problem all season long was mentality and lack of urgency

Just like PSG is too this season and look at them in their league. Juve's midfield is atrocious, their full backs very ordinary, the backline finished at the highest level.

 

[padzilla]

AC Milan went down this road a few times with the likes of Seedorf, Inzaghi and Leonardo who were all shockingly bad - Gattuso as well didn't set the world alight but he's back in with Napoli, Italian clubs seem to love hiring inexperienced former players as coaches.

 

[JPRouve]

Just like PSG is too this season and look at them in their league. Juve's midfield is atrocious, their full backs very ordinary, the backline finished at the highest level.

Are you describing PSG or Juventus?

 

[giorno]

Just like PSG is too this season and look at them in their league. Juve's midfield is atrocious, their full backs very ordinary, the backline finished at the highest level.

Eh, not really. Midfield is flawed but not all that bad if you play to their strenghts, fullbacks are pretty decent, backline is still good. They're very poorly coached by a guy with zero experience and with no preseason

We're talking about winning the italian league, not the CL.

 

[kouroux]

Are you describing PSG or Juventus?

Both tbh

Eh, not really. Midfield is flawed but not all that bad if you play to their strenghts, fullbacks are pretty decent, backline is still good. They're very poorly coached by a guy with zero experience and with no preseason

We're talking about winning the italian league, not the CL.

Midifield is shit tbh, the Artur/Pjanic swap was pointless from a football POV(McKinnie shows promise granted) but the rest is trash, I didn't even mention the attack which is so bad except for Ronaldo.

 

[JPRouve]

Eh, not really. Midfield is flawed but not all that bad if you play to their strenghts, fullbacks are pretty decent, backline is still good. They're very poorly coached by a guy with zero experience and with no preseason

We're talking about winning the italian league, not the CL.

I agree with that, individually they have good midfielders but the way they have been used by both Sarri and Pirlo, goes totally against their strength. Tell me if I'm wrong but from what I have seen both managers essentially treat them as if they were the likes of Tacchinardi or Matuidi instead of technical midfielders that would thrive in a system that his built around their technical abilities?

 

[giorno]

I agree with that, individually they have good midfielders but the way they have been used by both Sarri and Pirlo, goes totally against their strength. Tell me if I'm wrong but from what I have seen both managers essentially treat them as if they were the likes of Tacchinardi or Matuidi instead of technical midfielders that would thrive in a system that his built around their technical abilities?

They are not technical players, that's the thing. They're dynamic players, strong in duels, they're perfect for fast transition games, instead both Sarri and Pirlo wanted to dominate possession with a slower, more methodical build up, which they just don't have the quality for it...

The other huge issue was pressing. This team can press well in bursts, but simply can't do it for whole games, because of the strikers

And then you have the hugely influential Chiellini and Bonucci who would prefer to sit deep and defend in their box like they did with Allegri

@kouroux agree to disagree

 

[JPRouve]

They are not technical players, that's the thing. They're dynamic players, strong in duels, they're perfect for fast transition games, instead both Sarri and Pirlo wanted to dominate possession with a slower, more methodical build up, which they just don't have the quality for it...

The other huge issue was pressing. This team can press well in bursts, but simply can't do it for whole games, because of the strikers

And then you have the hugely influential Chiellini and Bonucci who would prefer to sit deep and defend in their box like they did with Allegri

@kouroux agree to disagree

You don't think that the likes the of Rabiot, Arthur or Bentancur are more technical than dynamic? In my opinion they lack dynamism and aren't built for pressing and play a physically demanding game.

 

[#07]

You don't think that the likes the of Rabiot, Arthur or Bentancur are more technical than dynamic? In my opinion they lack dynamism and aren't built for pressing and play a physically demanding game.

I think @giorno has a point. Its not that Rabiot, Arthur or Bentancur are not technical. However, they are not upper echelon technical. I don't think you can expect such a players to dominate games like Spain at Euro 2012. They're very good players but elite? In my opinion, no. Which is kind of a major issue given that Pirlo is effectively trying to copy the Pep press and pass tactics of a decade ago, something even Pep has moved on from during his time at Bayern and City.

Juve just don't have the players to play the way Pirlo wants to.

Please don't misread this post as implying all Juve can do is sit back, soak up pressure and counter. They have players who can pass and move. However, does it play to the strengths of their squad to base their football on possession and positional play? IMO if you had someone like Zinedine Zidane as Juve manager you'd get a much more cohesive, if less pretty, team out of Juve's squad. You can see that just from the transition to and from Lopetegui at Madrid.

 

[JPRouve]

I think @giorno has a point. Its not that Rabiot, Arthur or Bentancur are not technical. However, they are not upper echelon technical. I don't think you can expect such a players to dominate games like Spain at Euro 2012. They're very good players but elite? In my opinion, no. Which is kind of a major issue given that Pirlo is effectively trying to copy the Pep press and pass tactics of a decade ago, something even Pep has moved on from during his time at Bayern and City.

Juve just don't have the players to play the way Pirlo wants to.

Please don't misread this post as implying all Juve can do is sit back, soak up pressure and counter. They have players who can pass and move. However, does it play to the strengths of their squad to base their football on possession and positional play? IMO if you had someone like Zinedine Zidane as Juve manager you'd get a much more cohesive, if less pretty, team out of Juve's squad. You can see that just from the transition to and from Lopetegui at Madrid.

But I'm not talking about upper echelon technical, so he doesn't have a point and no one talked about Spain 2012. Why would you even go to that extreme, the point wasn't about being elite but being technical players.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Would Allegri come back?

That seems to be one of the rumours going around.

 

[redshaw]

I remember looking back through Juve's youtube views a few months after Ronaldo arrived and they were only getting a 100k-200k some a lot less and after Ronaldo it went to 4 million+ regular views. I think it did help bring eyes to Juve and Italy, people might forget how much of a lull Italy was in how many younger followed Ronaldo Messi 3-4 years ago. Depends how many stay and do we see this reflected in Juve's financials, perhaps Juv'e fans can inform us. Wouldn't surprise me if Ronaldo has had a considerable impact in raising their profile.

 

[giorno]

You don't think that the likes the of Rabiot, Arthur or Bentancur are more technical than dynamic? In my opinion they lack dynamism and aren't built for pressing and play a physically demanding game.

Arthur is, but he's also pretty pointless and always injured anyways. The others no, they're definitely more dynamic than technical. They're at their best when they can run and use their physicality, moving the ball isn't their forte. I don't know whether they would struggle with a physically demanding game, the team does but i get the impression the strikers and defenders are the problem there

 

[r3idy]

How has De Ligt been playing. I remember him having a rocky start to his career, which wasn't entirely unexpected given his age and relatively big move. Has he kicked on / improved?

 

[#07]

But I'm not talking about upper echelon technical, so he doesn't have a point and no one talked about Spain 2012. Why would you even go to that extreme, the point wasn't about being elite but being technical players.

Its not extreme. Pirlo has said his approach is based on the pressing and positional play, his reference point for this is Spain's football from its golden age.

The football Pirlo has been trying to make Juve play does not suit the strengths of his squad. Yes, he has some technical players. However, they are not technically gifted enough to dominate the ball the way Pirlo wants. They are also not dynamic enough to hunt the ball down like a pack of hunting dogs game in, game out over a season.

Pirlo, like Sarri before him, is playing to an ideal and trying to make his players fit it. Instead he should realise what the strengths and weaknesses of his side are and shape his tactics pragmatically. The way someone like Carlo Ancelotti would.

 

[JPRouve]

Its not extreme. Pirlo has said his approach is based on the pressing and positional play, his reference point for this is Spain's football from its golden age.

The football Pirlo has been trying to make Juve play does not suit the strengths of his squad. Yes, he has some technical players. However, they are not technically gifted enough to dominate the ball the way Pirlo wants. They are also not dynamic enough to hunt the ball down like a pack of hunting dogs game in, game out over a season.

Pirlo, like Sarri before him, is playing to an ideal and trying to make his players fit it. Instead he should realise what the strengths and weaknesses of his side are and shape his tactics pragmatically. The way someone like Carlo Ancelotti would.

Spain 2012 is an extreme, you are using what is arguably the best set of midfielders in football history from a technical standpoint and the kings of possession football.

 

[#07]

Spain 2012 is an extreme, you are using what is arguably the best set of midfielders in football history from a technical standpoint and the kings of possession football.

Because its the ideal that Pirlo is trying to reach and its going to cost him his job.

 

[JPRouve]

Because its the ideal that Pirlo is trying to reach and its going to cost him his job.

If that's what he is trying to do then he is shooting for the moon and it barely looks like he knows how to get there.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Frank at least did an ok job at Derby. Pirlo and Lego Pep is a more interesting question.

Frank had a champions league finalist squad in 10th place.

 

[V.O.]

Please don't misread this post as implying all Juve can do is sit back, soak up pressure and counter. They have players who can pass and move. However, does it play to the strengths of their squad to base their football on possession and positional play? IMO if you had someone like Zinedine Zidane as Juve manager you'd get a much more cohesive, if less pretty, team out of Juve's squad. You can see that just from the transition to and from Lopetegui at Madrid.

That'd be a sight to turn milk sour, then. Any game I've seen of Juve lately under either Sarri or Pirlo, they've been an absolutely fecking dire watch.

 

[Luke1995]

So Cristiano in europa might happen? Pirlo must be an atrocious manager.

It's far easier for Cristiano to just finish his contract there than to try to force a move now having just one year to go.

But yeah... that's not good for football. A player like Ronaldo should be in the CL every season.

 

[#07]

If that's what he is trying to do then he is shooting for the moon and it barely looks like he knows how to get there.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mw5lnzaq...Pwa?dl=0&preview=Andrea+Pirlo+Pro+License.pdf

This is Pirlo's thesis for his UEFA pro licence. Its actually some pretty interesting stuff. Even just reading the introduction you get a clear sense of what he wants to do and see on a football pitch.

He talks about his goal to 'play total and collective football, with 11 active players in the offensive and defensive phase.' He also mentions that in his view football is changing so that 'from a static disposition of the players we are arriving at a dynamic occupation of the positions functional to the principles of the game.'

Effectively what he's talking about is total football. No fixed positions e.g. defender or midfielder but defenders and midfielders and attackers changing positions relative to state of play.

He makes this more concrete by saying 'I would also like to mention the teams that inspired me in shaping my idea of football...Cruyff's Barcelona and then Guardiola's, Van Gaal's Ajax, Ancelotti's Milan up to Conte's Juventus.'

Pirlo has an ideal way of playing and, if he had the players to play it, it would be very, very interesting to watch. However, in world football today only City's squad comes close to having the players to execute this idea of football. To try and do it with Juve's squad is idealistic. Its not working. You are not going to be able to achieve the levels of rotation Pirlo wants to achieve with this Juve. Not because the players are bad but because the blueprint is just too difficult to implement.

I've seen some games where actually Pirlo's ideas are executed quite well, particularly when Kulusevski was in form and could get the midfielders linking and running beyond. However, I think the Lopetegui comparison is a good one because Lopetegui's Madrid also started very interestingly. However, the players quickly snapped back into their established patterns. Again, not because they were bad players. It just takes a lot to realise such a complex theory of football.

 

[el3mel]

It was nonsensical appointment from start to finish but the fact that he's struggling to make them to qualify to fecking CL is worse than anyone else would have expected.

I expect Allegri to be back next season.

 

[GifLord]

The All Or Nothing amazon docu is gonna be amazing after the season they've had

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How has De Ligt been playing. I remember him having a rocky start to his career, which wasn't entirely unexpected given his age and relatively big move. Has he kicked on / improved?

Shouldn't ask the question when the player is still under Pirlo's man management. Pirlo is just so bad that he makes everyone look shite.

Juventus is right now have very good and balanced squad in my opinion. They have young players, experienced old but leadership players, & players on their prime age. But Pirlo somehow able to ruin it.

 

[horsechoker]

The All Or Nothing amazon docu is gonna be amazing after the season they've had

Nothing!

 

[littleman]

I must say that i am totally against this trend when coaches get a chance to coach big club just based on the fact that they are legends of that club. I don't see any logic in that. Based on what? What owners think at that moment? He was great player so he will be surely great manager?
You must earn biggest jobs in the world. Being a player or manager of giant clubs is the most difficult job (and achievement) in football. So you must have people who know what they are doing. Being a CEO of multi billion company is not a place where you "learn" how to do your job.

People use Zidane and Pep examples always. But they already inherited top squads in 2 club league. And yes, time showed that they are good coaches. But again it was a gamble which could have gone in opposite way. Like Real did with Solari for example.

Anyway, coaches should prove themselves before getting top job.

While true, I think it's really that a good chunk of any club's fanbase receive this warmly and the other chunk is skeptical but willing, because of legend status.

It has a lot of strategic value for the club, outside of winning.

 

[Teja]

The All Or Nothing amazon docu is gonna be amazing after the season they've had

This whole series is cursed , we should chase any Amazon / Netflix reps away from the United execs lest they get ideas about supplemental revenue streams.

 

[adexkola]

I must say that i am totally against this trend when coaches get a chance to coach big club just based on the fact that they are legends of that club. I don't see any logic in that. Based on what? What owners think at that moment? He was great player so he will be surely great manager?
You must earn biggest jobs in the world. Being a player or manager of giant clubs is the most difficult job (and achievement) in football. So you must have people who know what they are doing. Being a CEO of multi billion company is not a place where you "learn" how to do your job.

People use Zidane and Pep examples always. But they already inherited top squads in 2 club league. And yes, time showed that they are good coaches. But again it was a gamble which could have gone in opposite way. Like Real did with Solari for example.

Anyway, coaches should prove themselves before getting top job.

Your logic is flawed.

Did Ole "prove" himself before getting the permanent position at United? The Zidane and Pep examples further undermine your point.

All you have to show at the interview table is your qualifications and your ability to implement your ideas on the training ground and on the field.

 

[adexkola]

At least that puts the notion to rest that anyone can with [insert dominant team].

Anyone who comes out with this, their opinions can be instantly dismissed without any loss.

 

[simonhch]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mw5lnzaq...Pwa?dl=0&preview=Andrea+Pirlo+Pro+License.pdf

This is Pirlo's thesis for his UEFA pro licence. Its actually some pretty interesting stuff. Even just reading the introduction you get a clear sense of what he wants to do and see on a football pitch.

He talks about his goal to 'play total and collective football, with 11 active players in the offensive and defensive phase.' He also mentions that in his view football is changing so that 'from a static disposition of the players we are arriving at a dynamic occupation of the positions functional to the principles of the game.'

Effectively what he's talking about is total football. No fixed positions e.g. defender or midfielder but defenders and midfielders and attackers changing positions relative to state of play.

He makes this more concrete by saying 'I would also like to mention the teams that inspired me in shaping my idea of football...Cruyff's Barcelona and then Guardiola's, Van Gaal's Ajax, Ancelotti's Milan up to Conte's Juventus.'

Pirlo has an ideal way of playing and, if he had the players to play it, it would be very, very interesting to watch. However, in world football today only City's squad comes close to having the players to execute this idea of football. To try and do it with Juve's squad is idealistic. Its not working. You are not going to be able to achieve the levels of rotation Pirlo wants to achieve with this Juve. Not because the players are bad but because the blueprint is just too difficult to implement.

I've seen some games where actually Pirlo's ideas are executed quite well, particularly when Kulusevski was in form and could get the midfielders linking and running beyond. However, I think the Lopetegui comparison is a good one because Lopetegui's Madrid also started very interestingly. However, the players quickly snapped back into their established patterns. Again, not because they were bad players. It just takes a lot to realise such a complex theory of football.

Anyone with post graduate experience and a dissertation or thesis to their name will tell you that there is a clear divide between academic theory and practical application. Ideas can be excellent in theory but the individuals ability to communicate those ideas and relate them practically to a real world environment brings in other factors such as leadership and communication capabilities. Essentially in football, complex ideas have to be translated into simple terms. It is also a well established fact that effective leadership requires effective followership and to generate that leaders have to cultivate local level sponsors and an alignment of shared, mutual goals. Then we get into the concepts of EQ and change management. This is where Ole has succeeded, and where more storied peers such as Guardiola and Ferguson, have succeeded so comprehensively.

From the outside looking in, Pirlo seems like he has an excellent football brain but likely lacks the leadership skills required to implement those ideas in a management setting. Leadership, as a discipline, is much more nuanced and complex than many people understand.

 

[adexkola]

Anyone with post graduate experience and a dissertation or thesis to their name will tell you that there is a clear divide between academic theory and practical application. Ideas can be excellent in theory but the individuals ability to communicate those ideas and relate them practically to a real world environment brings in other factors such as leadership and communication capabilities. Essentially in football, complex ideas have to be translated into simple terms. It is also a well established fact that effective leadership requires effective followership and to generate that leaders have to cultivate local level sponsors and an alignment of shared, mutual goals. Then we get into the concepts of EQ and change management. This is where Ole has succeeded, and where more storied peers such as Guardiola and Ferguson, have succeeded so comprehensively.

From the outside looking in, Pirlo seems like he has an excellent football brain but likely lacks the leadership skills required to implement those ideas in a management setting. Leadership, as a discipline, is much more nuanced and complex than many people understand.

Great post. I've only skimmed through his thesis but it seems the problem of his tenure lies with

1. Effective communication of these concepts to his players
2. Actually having the right set of players that would make this plan work

I'm not sure how going to Serie D demonstrates he has what it takes to succeed at the highest levels, as some are clamoring for.

 

[Dave Smith]

Hasn't he been sacked yet?

 

[crossy1686]

Hasn't he been sacked yet?

Who are they going to replace him with? Ronaldo?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Anyone with post graduate experience and a dissertation or thesis to their name will tell you that there is a clear divide between academic theory and practical application. Ideas can be excellent in theory but the individuals ability to communicate those ideas and relate them practically to a real world environment brings in other factors such as leadership and communication capabilities. Essentially in football, complex ideas have to be translated into simple terms. It is also a well established fact that effective leadership requires effective followership and to generate that leaders have to cultivate local level sponsors and an alignment of shared, mutual goals. Then we get into the concepts of EQ and change management. This is where Ole has succeeded, and where more storied peers such as Guardiola and Ferguson, have succeeded so comprehensively.

From the outside looking in, Pirlo seems like he has an excellent football brain but likely lacks the leadership skills required to implement those ideas in a management setting. Leadership, as a discipline, is much more nuanced and complex than many people understand.

I know if I were one of his players I wouldn't be able to think about anything other than his hair when looking at him

 

[simonhch]

Great post. I've only skimmed through his thesis but it seems the problem of his tenure lies with

1. Effective communication of these concepts to his players
2. Actually having the right set of players that would make this plan work

I'm not sure how going to Serie D demonstrates he has what it takes to succeed at the highest levels, as some are clamoring for.

Thank you. Football managers have the same pervasive leadership responsibilities and effect as leaders of small to medium sized companies, in that their individual leadership styld - and indeed their mood - can be felt at every corner of the organisation. It’s why successful managers have to have such excellent leadership qualities. It’s an example of why Mourinho has such a limited shelf life in any organisation.

Contrary to popular opinion great leaders are usually made as opposed to having innate leadership qualities. Leadership can be taught and learned like anything else, and it’s why we see great leaders are often individuals whose skills were forged in crucible of adversity, or they are well studied. Football more so than any other discipline relies on personal power more than positional. In a typical power structure, especially when the power distance i.e. when the cultural and hierarchical separation between employees (followers) and leaders are so great, positional power can be relied upon. That is people are likely to follow because they are worried about getting fired. In smaller organisations, and football clubs, people are much more likely to follow through a demonstration of personal power, that being such things as respect for expertise, demonstrable track records, and an ability to relate empathetically and accessibly to a leader.

Identity construction, including in the workplace, is essentially a social activity, which is why leaders of small businesses and those with low power distance (leaders are closely mingled with their subordinates) are so reliant on a mixed stylistic approach to leadership. Needing to use different leadership styles - transformational, transactional, laissez faire - according to the personality traits of individuals in the group. Allowing those individuals to construct an identity, as it relates to their position in the organisation, that makes them feel valued and aligned with the organisations goals. A one size fits all approach rarely works, and leaves individuals who don’t respond to that particular style of leadership, to construct an identity which is incongruous with the goals and objectives of the enterprise. What has to remain consistent regardless of the approach is an emphasis on clear and consistent communication without mixed messaging. I feel this latter point is where managers such as Guardiola, Klopp, and our own dear Ole, excel so greatly. It also lends credence to the oversimplified notion of ex players who “know the club” inherently having an advantage. For while that is an oversimplification of the concept, there is value in having first hand experience of how a player may construct his identity in the context of the wider organisation. Where it goes array is that the former player only has direct experience of his own experience of identity construction, and the challenge is to create a workplace cultural where the individualised needs of the many are all addressed separately with multiple different approaches.

A bug bear of mine are corrective avoidant leaders. I.e. leaders who don’t instruct followers how to perform unless they see something wrong, at which point they attempt to correct the deviation. It is a well established fact that positive feedback and direction has a much more pervasive and enduring effect than negative, and which is why I believe we see diminishing returns on the management style employed by leaders such as Mourinho. It also emphasises the concept of managers with excellent communication and multi-faceted leadership styles being able to “get the most out of their squad”. In reality they aren’t over performing, what they are doing is being able to tailor their leadership to each individual to maximise the returns and performance from each player, thus improving the collective. Ole, as we have seen from his press conferences, has a well developed ability to tailor his approach to complex situations to derive the best outcome and messaging. One can only imagine that his approach to managing Edinson Cavani, for instance, versus Paul Pogba, is significantly different. This might seem like an obvious statement to make, but many leaders don’t, they have a one size fits all approach, and as a result you see as many players performing to a high standard, as you do those who are performing well below their perceived ability level. This is why excellent man managers and communicators are among the most desirable of managerial traits.

 

[iKnowNothing]

But yeah... that's not good for football. A player like Ronaldo should be in the CL every season.

If Ronaldo to Juve raised their and the Italian league’s profile, then by the same logic, Ronaldo in Europa should increase Europa league’s profile and therefore good for football in general?