What else can they do? Germany still lives with the shame of the Holocaust and you see that reflected in their general dealing with Israel.Germany are condemning Hamas' attacks. Iran are condemning Israeli violence.
They won a democratic election and the moderate Fatah live in a still occupied West Bank. Why is the West Bank still occupied?Hamas took control by force and kicked the more moderate Fatah out to the West Bank. Why should Israel have any dialog with a terror organization?
It has started and continued because people don't understand or like difference. Why don't you take yours to the correct thread?And this all started because of fairy tales about promised lands, but a lot of inocent people live there now so things can't be undone for obvious reasons. Both sides are at fault, no good guys in this history.
So you're fine with removing Palestinians from their homes? In your opinion this is acceptable behavior from Israel?How about recognize Israel's right to exist for a start? How about stop shooting rockets targeting Israeli civilians? Israel did their part in 2005 when they removed all their settlements from the strip expecting to start peaceful negotiations, and what happened since? Hamas took control by force and kicked the more moderate Fatah out to the West Bank. Why should Israel have any dialog with a terror organization?
For people to accept those differences, you would need to instill the "sharing the land" culture on both sides, which never happened before and will not happen any soon by the look of it. In fact, the opposite as been done by noth sides. OK, if you think it doesn't fit this thread. Off I go.It has started and continued because people don't understand or like difference. Why don't you take yours to the correct thread?
Im not a politician, and if you talk to me about the conflict it self I bet we would find more in common than we would be apart.Yet in Northern Ireland the vast majority of British troops could say the same because that was their experience, but it doesn't mean a small minority (or at least a minority) committed terrible acts. The other factor is that even the soldiers who "did nothing wrong" were still part of what a large portion of the population considered an occupying force. Yet that view didn't make them part of the IRA.
My ultimate point is that conflicts don't get resolved by either side claiming the moral high ground but it needs to start with genuine talks and negotiation with each other and that is often impossible until both sides stop killing each other in tit for tat attacks.
I don't mind if you've got an opinion or want to talk about cultures but you started it off with your pop about religion and there's a separate thread for that. Otherwise I can accept that you are entitled to express yourself and have as valid an opinion as anyone else.For people to accept those differences, you would need to instill the "sharing the land" culture on both sides, which never happened before and will not happen any soon by the look of it. In fact, the opposite as been done by noth sides. OK, if you think it doesn't fit this thread. Off I go.
You sit behimd your computer writing lies and you have the odesity to call me a shameless liar. I LIVE HERE. I am terrified of whats going on in the streets because I am terrified it will turn into a civil war. Arbs lynching jews and jews lynching arabs became a regular soght ovee the past few days in mixed cities such as Haifa, Acre, Lod and more, and that is terrible. And that is why the police are there. Over 30% of the cops in Haifa are arabs themselves, and youd sit here and lie to people that they go to beat up their own? You are the shameless liar and that sickens me.You are a shameless shameless liar. Today is the first day Of Eid and here I am editing and soon uploading videos of police facilitating the lynching. You absolute coward. If you can’t see this for what it is then all hope is lost for your humanity. I’ve seen you defend the bombing and massacre of kids in other posts.
There are tens of incidents like this on video, all over the country. If you only listen to Israeli TV you will never see our side. The propaganda skills are unbelievable.
You have to understand the severity of the situation. Police and Mobs are entering our homes. I double locked the door last night. I heard and saw the death to Arabs chants by lynch mobs followed by police on horses from my apartment.
Are Arabs lynching Jews too?You sit behimd your computer writing lies and you have the odesity to call me a shameless liar. I LIVE HERE. I am terrified of whats going on in the streets because I am terrified it will turn into a civil war. Arbs lynching jews and jews lynching arabs became a regular soght ovee the past few days in mixed cities such as Haifa, Acre, Lod and more, and that is terrible. And that is why the police are there. Over 30% of the cops in Haifa are arabs themselves, and youd sit here and lie to people that they go to beat up their own? You are the shameless liar and that sickens me.
Yes. Its truly terrifying being a normal person in the street right now(jew or arab), because mobs of people full of hate walk around looking for people to beat up, and the police is there to try and prevent it.Are Arabs lynching Jews too?
I respect religons, and the promised land is valid for both Hebrews and Christians, since those passages on both religons sacred books are very similar (hence the reason there are a large interest of the Christian churchs being present in Jerusalem). For muslims, is the third most important place if I'm not mistaken, so almost every religion wants a piece of it tbh.I don't mind if you've got an opinion or want to talk about cultures but you started it off with your pop about religion and there's a separate thread for that. Otherwise I can accept that you are entitled to express yourself and have as valid an opinion as anyone else.
The two sides share the same foundation in religion but have long branched off in separate directions.I respect religons, and the promised land is valid for both Hebrews and Christians, since those passages on both religons sacred books are very similar (hence the reason there are a large interest of the Christian churchs being present in Jerusalem). For muslims, is the third most important place if I'm not mistaken, so almost every religion wants a piece of it tbh.
But the promised land was all about hope: Jews were expatriates, and if you were born jew in the egyptian empire days you would be basically almost at the same level as a slave. Times were tough and hope was needed. In the long term, it created a beautiful symbiose between hebrews arround the world, as the jew communities were very strong and unite.
But with the arise of extremist nationalist ideologies in the 19th century, things that were made with good intentions can easilly turn into extremist ideas, hence zionism.
Nowadays is not even about that anymore: it's more about national pride form both sides: on one hand you have a small group of elite Israelis who feel entitled and are in power positions to make decisions, on the other hand you have Hamas, who started as a poitical movement and ended up being funded by far right elite arabs and mix religion in bewtween. Unless there are profound changes on both sides leadrships, this conflict will never cess.
Can confirm his reply. It’s a febrile mix of toxicity and fear.Are Arabs lynching Jews too?
The problem is the IDF defends illegal settlements. That makes the Israeli state complicit and extremist even if people disagree with it. For as long as it continues, Israel is an extremist state.the tone is being set by extermists on both sides.
How about you give the Palestinians the same rights as the Israelis first?How about recognize Israel's right to exist for a start? How about stop shooting rockets targeting Israeli civilians? Israel did their part in 2005 when they removed all their settlements from the strip expecting to start peaceful negotiations, and what happened since? Hamas took control by force and kicked the more moderate Fatah out to the West Bank. Why should Israel have any dialog with a terror organization?
Ultimately, if there’s no such thing as enforceable international law, then concepts like illegal and extremist will be framed by the entities in power. In the US, the framing is one of an internationally recognized nation state and US ally, being rocket attacked by a terrorist organization (as defined by the State Department, EU, and various other Democratic nations). This ostensibly frames the conflict as being between a nation state and terror group, which provides politicians in the west more than sufficient moral leverage to continue backing the Israeli side. So at the end of the day, the rules are defined by those in power.The problem is the IDF defends illegal settlements. That makes the Israeli state complicit and extremist even if people disagree with it. For as long as it continues, Israel is an extremist state.
Disputed? Israeli is an occupier and the settlements are illegal under international lawDo you acknowledge that the 3 bolded words in your statement can be disputed? Or are you the type of Dictator, (sorry, Prime Minister) that doesn’t accept differing points of view?
By the way, your American apologist views are very worrisome for a high school teacher educating our future generations! I assume you wouldn’t have dropped the bombs in WW2 either? That military act didn’t seem to create “a new generation of terrorists”
So why do you think the settlements are legal or that there isn't an occupation?Do you acknowledge that the 3 bolded words in your statement can be disputed? Or are you the type of Dictator, (sorry, Prime Minister) that doesn’t accept differing points of view?
By the way, your American apologist views are very worrisome for a high school teacher educating our future generations! I assume you wouldn’t have dropped the bombs in WW2 either? That military act didn’t seem to create “a new generation of terrorists”
It's far too late. They have failed to differentiate between defending terrorism and being scum terrorist mobs. It's a disgrace to the entire country, and I hope every mobster and police enabler on either side is thrown into jail. The army should have been on the streets stamping it out days ago.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...israeli-mob-lynch-motorist-in-tel-aviv-suburb
Its interesting to see some of the denunciations here by certain high profile figures, considering their general views or statements in the past.
I agree with you completely, the UN seems toothless but only because it works as the main powers want it to. The security council and other regional powers defend their interests. The interesting part, though, is that the UN has repeatedly voted unanimously (US and one or two vassal states aside) in favour of resolutions which uphold the illegality of West Bank settlements and occupation.Ultimately, if there’s no such thing as enforceable international law, then concepts like illegal and extremist will be framed by the entities in power. In the US, the framing is one of an internationally recognized nation state and US ally, being rocket attacked by a terrorist organization (as defined by the State Department, EU, and various other Democratic nations). This ostensibly frames the conflict as being between a nation state and terror group, which provides politicians in the west more than sufficient moral leverage to continue backing the Israeli side. So at the end of the day, the rules are defined by those in power.
If there was a option on the table for the palestinians to get a state of their with the assurence that not terror body like Hamas in Gaza takes control over it and make pur lives a living hell, same as they did when we handed them Gaza, I would take it in a heartbit.The problem is the IDF defends illegal settlements. That makes the Israeli state complicit and extremist even if people disagree with it. For as long as it continues, Israel is an extremist state.
The Israelis have refused to stop the killings in Gaza after Hamas offered a stop to fire the rockets.I wonder if there was any German soldiers who were also perfectly content they were doing nothing wrong during the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in the 20th century.
Well indeed. Let's look at Smotrich for instance, a man who is in the knesset and represents 5% of Israelis by vote. "We cannot allow ourselves to take part in violent acts' yet agrees with segregation of Jews and Arabs in hospitals, that people should be allowed to not sell houses to Arabs, that it is acceptable to shoot to kill Palestinian kids who are throwing stones and that price tag attacks are not terrorism.It's far too late. They have failed to differentiate between defending terrorism and being scum terrorist mobs. It's a disgrace to the entire country, and I hope every mobster and police enabler on either side is thrown into jail. The army should have been on the streets stamping it out days ago.
As they said of the trump mob after Jan 6th: "They assembled this mob, they incited this mob, they empowered this mob."
(I've posted about it before; I know it lacks the imagery of police storming a mosque, but it's far more serious and widespread and scary. Both sides are lynching and mobbing, and the politicians enabled this.)
Stop lying please. I've been to Palestine and seen how the apartheid in that country works. If a Palestinian so much as looked at an Israeli funny, they'd be frogmarched to jail. I've literally seen grown men cower at the sight of a teenage settler being in their vicinity because he was allowed to carry a fecking AK-47 with impunity on the streets.Yes. Its truly terrifying being a normal person in the street right now(jew or arab), because mobs of people full of hate walk around looking for people to beat up, and the police is there to try and prevent it.
I live in a mixed city, I have arab friends, I dont hate anyone and the overwhelming majority of the arabs will tell you the same. Unfortunetly the tone is being set by extermists on both sides.
The false equivalency sickens me. "But I live here". Yes mate, and you're looking through the lens of the most privileged members of society simply because of your faith. "I have Arab friends". Now where I have heard something like that before? Anyone who has been to Palestine knows what the score really is.Stop lying please. I've been to Palestine and seen how the apartheid in that country works. If a Palestinian so much as looked at an Israeli funny, they'd be frogmarched to jail. I've literally seen grown men cower at the sight of a teenage settler being in their vicinity because he was allowed to carry a fecking AK-47 with impunity on the streets.
So stop with your disingenuous lies.
Not too sure about that, maybe it’s Northern Ireland weighing too heavily on my mind. Even if the army hit the streets with the very best intentions (not guaranteed) I think they’d still struggle to stay neutral, and you’d risk bringing occupation-style conditions to Israeli cities.The army should have been on the streets stamping it out days ago.
Yes try passing from Jordan to Palestine and see the harassment of the Israelis on the border. There are there in Palestine. This is not even the recognized border of Israel.The false equivalency sickens me. "But I live here". Yes mate, and you're looking through the lens of the most privileged members of society simply because of your faith. "I have Arab friends". Now where I have heard something like that before? Anyone who has been to Palestine knows what the score really is.
Private citizens are not allowed to own weapons in Israel, and AK-47 is not even in our army's arsenal, let alone a citizen. I dont know where you have been to, I dont know what you think you saw.Stop lying please. I've been to Palestine and seen how the apartheid in that country works. If a Palestinian so much as looked at an Israeli funny, they'd be frogmarched to jail. I've literally seen grown men cower at the sight of a teenage settler being in their vicinity because he was allowed to carry a fecking AK-47 with impunity on the streets.
So stop with your disingenuous lies.
Said, literally every occupying force ever.If there was a option on the table for the palestinians to get a state of their with the assurence that not terror body like Hamas in Gaza takes control over it and make pur lives a living hell, same as they did when we handed them Gaza, I would take it in a heartbit.
Unfortunetly history taught as that when we abandon a territory and trust someone else with our security, bad stuff happens. Im not saying our leaders and decision makers our angels, and Im not saying my goverment is right, I oppose army law over the west bank and its a travesty in my eyes. But I dont see any lasting solution at the moment. And I wont let it justify the mass shooting of rockets into our cities. It cant justify it.
Sorry, what is it specifically you think he’s lying about in the bit of his post you quoted?Stop lying please. I've been to Palestine and seen how the apartheid in that country works. If a Palestinian so much as looked at an Israeli funny, they'd be frogmarched to jail. I've literally seen grown men cower at the sight of a teenage settler being in their vicinity because he was allowed to carry a fecking AK-47 with impunity on the streets.
So stop with your disingenuous lies.
Unless something has changed, I saw Israelis carrying heavy duty guns in plain clothes when I was there. I doubt they were 'private' citizens, almost certainly plain clothes officers but its disingenuous to suggest it doesn't happen in Israel.Private citizens are not allowed to own weapons in Israel, and AK-47 is not even in our army's arsenal, let alone a citizen. I dont know where you have been to, I dont know what you think you saw.
I live here, I grew up here, I worked with arabs my entire life, i go out on Fridays with arab friends. Is everything perfect? No. Are there crazy extremists? Yes, on both sides. But the picture you are trying to paint here is so distorted and not connected to reality that its actually frightnening.
Hamas were touted by Israel in the early days. Let's not try and change the facts.I dont know of any time in history Israel has ever supported Hamas. We supported the PLO after the oslo accords, and as far as I know thats the end of it. Hamas gainee control of the Gaza strip in 2004 when we evacuated every living jew in the area and has used it to try and kill Israelis every since. Digging tunnels into israeli cities, firing rockets without regard to where it will fall, hoping to kill civilians.
On a personal note, a soldier from my battalion was killed today. I know his commanders, that breaks my heart. But as heart breaking as that is, it is legitimate to fight againts our army. That doesnt make it legitimate to shoot at our civilans, and trying to create an equation where it is ok, just shows the moral of those who does it.
If you were questioned by someone in a border crossing, than he works for the defense ministry, thuse not a private citizen.Unless something has changed, I saw Israelis carrying heavy duty guns in plain clothes when I was there. I doubt they were 'private' citizens, almost certainly plain clothes officers but its disingenuous to suggest it doesn't happen in Israel.
By AK-47, I assume he means heavy-grade automatic weapons, as opposed to specifically AKs. I was interrogated for 4 hours the first time I crossed the Allenby bridge by a 'lovely' man dressed in normal clothes with a huge rifle slung across his back, along with the normal border security guards dressed in uniform. I assume in part because my wife is half Egyptian and has Arabic names.
A very rudimentary search also seems to suggest that your assertion is incorrect:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...arry-guns-amid-palestinian-violence/73811790/
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/21/middleeast/israel-gun-laws-relaxed-intl/index.html
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ollows-women-settlers-who-pack-heat-1.5454116
Yea, I see where you're coming from here. But it has to be better than the lynching, even if the optics are worse. Those scenes honestly send a shiver down my spine, especially the idea that the police are being complicit.Not too sure about that, maybe it’s Northern Ireland weighing too heavily on my mind. Even if the army hit the streets with the very best intentions (not guaranteed) I think they’d still struggle to stay neutral, and you’d risk bringing occupation-style conditions to Israeli cities.
This isn't true. There is strict gun control and ammunition limits, but self defense is a valid reason for a private weapon application, as is private security guard etc. Not to mention the thousands of people in 'grey' state security roles.I really worry for your mental health as I fear you are delusional. Private citizens are not allowed to own weapons in Israel, and AK-47 is not even in our army's arsenal, let alone a citizen. I dont know where you have been to, I dont know what you think you saw.
I live here, I grew up here, I worked with arabs my entire life, i go out on Fridays with arab friends. Is everything perfect? No. Are there crazy extremists? Yes, on both sides. But the picture you are trying to paint here is so distorted and not connected to reality that its actually frightnening.
I can't disagree. Some of them are plain racists, only crying now that it's out of control for their own people. They are directly responsible, to me at least.Well indeed. Let's look at Smotrich for instance, a man who is in the knesset and represents 5% of Israelis by vote. "We cannot allow ourselves to take part in violent acts' yet agrees with segregation of Jews and Arabs in hospitals, that people should be allowed to not sell houses to Arabs, that it is acceptable to shoot to kill Palestinian kids who are throwing stones and that price tag attacks are not terrorism.
Or the chief rabbi, who has previously said that gentiles should be sent to Saudi if they don't want to follow a certain set of laws or that even people who' ve been subdued should be shot, though this was at least retracted later I believe.
Also, the army is the people in Israel? Most of those people lynching will have been in the IDF at some point. Having worked and lived in North London for a good portion of my career, I've worked with and enjoyed many a good time with British Jews, some of whom have gone on to do aliyah or birthright.
Other than one who became a reform rabbi (interesting career move!) or one that's very religious but always found it ridiculous that as a Brit, he can rock up in Israel and buy a home, live there whilst a Palestinian lives in either occupation or blockade...the others have come back from their time there, especially if they did some time in the IDF with some....interesting views let's say.
