Almost like its a covid season or something. Meanwhile City are the best team in Europe and have 83 points to last seasons 81.
Has any big club jumped up in points across Europe? Behave.
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Has any big club jumped up in points across Europe? Behave.
I think a lot is being made of recent results when there are confounding factors, like at the start of the season, and ultimately it doesn't really matter.
Other than that, let's have some perspective.
United didn't address any of the areas of concern in the summer transfer window last year. Ole got little support there.
Despite that we've gone on to have a decent season in Europe against good teams, we've finished second in the league and all being well we'll get a trophy. Plus some really exciting performances and results.
City on the other hand invested in all the right areas even with them having a great season last year.
This is a big summer and Ole still has everything to prove, he's not earned a bad season like, for example, Klopp.
Why can't the fans actually just support him, acknowledge the improvement despite all the circumstances, and hope the board back him in the summer.
This constant questioning of whether he is the right man or if we've made the great leaps you'd wish is redundant and boring. He's our manager next year and he'll have to go again and earn the right to be our manager, we should give him all the support as fans to hope he does that.
Other than that, let's have some perspective.
United didn't address any of the areas of concern in the summer transfer window last year. Ole got little support there.
Despite that we've gone on to have a decent season in Europe against good teams, we've finished second in the league and all being well we'll get a trophy. Plus some really exciting performances and results.
City on the other hand invested in all the right areas even with them having a great season last year.
This is a big summer and Ole still has everything to prove, he's not earned a bad season like, for example, Klopp.
Why can't the fans actually just support him, acknowledge the improvement despite all the circumstances, and hope the board back him in the summer.
This constant questioning of whether he is the right man or if we've made the great leaps you'd wish is redundant and boring. He's our manager next year and he'll have to go again and earn the right to be our manager, we should give him all the support as fans to hope he does that.
I’ve said he’s improved the squad and can take credit for it. With a better squad we should be doing better. Not just about matching it.
Progress and has been slow and steady, which is good. We were in decline for years you have to take that.
I'm surprised we had a decent season after last summer, genuinely thought we were in for a struggle.
Next season we need to kick on, and it starts with adding 2/3 players this summer.
I'm surprised we had a decent season after last summer, genuinely thought we were in for a struggle.
Next season we need to kick on, and it starts with adding 2/3 players this summer.
Pretty much every single club got 3 weeks rest before the season started.We would have another 15 points on the board if we got Sancho,had a pre-season like other clubs and didnt secure top 4 early+4 games in 6 days.
Hopefully we will have Sancho plus others in August. Plus our young players will be a year older.
Its progress.
Even if Ole walked out tomorrow he has improved loads of our players plus signed the likes of Bruno.
Next season clubs will also get extended rest and proper pre-season, just like us.
I don't disagree that he did a great job rebuilding up the squad but people made it as if we're the only club who suffered from COVID issues last year.
Roy Keane "Call this progress ? nonsense"
Nope. We had a week and a half off before being called up for internationals.
Edit end of league was 26 of July. Sevilla game was Augist 16
I mean, the performances of your main competitors is out of your hands. In a season where your competitors performs well, you might finish 4th. In a season where your competitors poor to mediocre, you finish 2nd. For example, does the fact Chelsea had to sack their manager he was doing such a shit job, mean that we're a significantly better team, because our ~74 points got us 2nd rather than 3rd? Maybe it does, but you have to be realistic and look at what you can realistically achieve with a given level of results - 66 points and 74 points in consecutive seasons is the sign of a team that is miles away from winning the league - and the actual worrying fact for me is 74 points would flatter us given our actual performance levels (I felt this just from watching our games and the statistics back it up).
This is a very good point. Our haplessness this season was relatively short lived. We’ve had a much bigger chunk of this season in which we played well/got decent results than we’ve had in any season since Fergie retired (if you exclude meaningless end of season games like tonight)
That said, it’s hard to ignore how many of those good performances/results featured an absolutely dogshit opening spell, often lasting the whole way to half time.
So yeah, we’re still a deeply flawed side. Unfortunately. Miles away from the quality needed to win big trophies.
Totally agree, I think it would actually be foolish with what we need to be spending such a huge sum on someone like Kane this summer....unless there are a few major outs to balance out a spend of £3-400million, which isnt happening, as just our first eleven, to go to a genuine side to compete for the league, ralistically is 4/5 signings away.
I think under Solkjear,w e have progressed each season, but there are still as many positives as negatives for me which almost interwine:
1) He is targeting good youth players to look long term
2) He looks to be signing players with the right character such as Maguire, Bissaka and Fernandes
3) He does look to want to follow the United DNA and traditions
But negatives
1) Outside of youth players, which appear not to be ready, he hasnt really signed any great young players of the right age breaking through with the exception of Bissaka
2) He hasnt made enough signings in any one window yet e.g Maguire window, we needed two centre backs, he signed one....we still need a centre back. I expect a similar scenario will happen this summer when we sign one central midfielder....we need two
3) For all he has done so far, is he the right manager to drive us forward and win trophies....still not sure either way, but he doesnt seem the best tactically
4) For all the talk of him axing deadwood....we still have a lot of it, not doing enough numbers wise out , just like hasnt inwards either
Ideally in a perfect world we should be signing a centre back, two central midfielders, a right winger and a striker....that is 5 signings. As mentioned not realistic, same token though 2 major signings and another youngster is what I expect.....it makes progress, it doesnt make enough, it isnt like other sides are standing still. Look at Chelsea and the number of signings they made last summer. Talk of them challenigng for the title was unrealistic to me, but that side is now starting to come together.
For me we really need to be ruthless with a few outgoings and ambitous with our purchases. I think there are some really good players for each position we ideally need, but we need to sign them. Even though Ole is progressing, we are stil making some wrong signings for the short term at least....VDB over Grealish last summer was poor for example.
you realise this isn't on the manager right?
Anyone that actually understands football will know that we will never progress when we have bang average players in our squad. We need to get rid of the likes of Fred and Lindelof they are holding us back and yet they get regular playing time. They are so limited it’s a joke. We will never win anything with these two muppets starting most of our games.
Which teams have actually 'progressed' this season?
- City by spending another £100m on defenders but they are still far from their best side.
- Chelsea after spending £200m+ in one summer
- maybe Leeds? West Ham?
For all the hype of other teams and their managers it's slim pickings.
The main way teams improve is good recruitment, and considering we didn't last summer we've done well. It's vital that we get it right this window.
- City by spending another £100m on defenders but they are still far from their best side.
- Chelsea after spending £200m+ in one summer
- maybe Leeds? West Ham?
For all the hype of other teams and their managers it's slim pickings.
The main way teams improve is good recruitment, and considering we didn't last summer we've done well. It's vital that we get it right this window.
We finished last season Aug 16th and started the season Sep 19th.
City finished Aug 15th, started Sep 21th.
Chelsea finished Aug 8th, started Sep 14th.
Basically same period of rest of everyone. About 3 weeks.
This 'everyone else hasnt improved that much so we are okay' narrative isnt one to hang on to.
Liverpool have barely had a defence all year and yet we have conceded more than them so far this season. The defence needed sorting last year and still needs sorting.
That is such a disingenuous comparison. Firstly, almost all the main players from that team have either been sold or sidelined. Second, the players Ole is using are the players that Jose didn't think we're worth sticking with and he's only added four first team players to that squad and in the process shipped many more out. Thirdly, we've had no preseason and a shit transfer window. Fourth, this is the first dodgy patch we've had in a season where we've almost played a game every 3 days relentlessly, since that awful start because the PL in its infinite wisdom decided that we can play 4 games in 7 days. Somehow, I think that might be a contributing factor to our current form, how about you?
In a season where almost no one in the whole of Europe has been able to deal with the pandemic schedule, unless they were named Manchester City, I think we've dealt with almost everything we've come across well. Has it been perfect? No. But I guarantee that if we canvassed the opinions on here after deadline day, people would be saying we'd be lucky with top 4 especially since "Chelsea won the transfer window", "Arsenal filled the holes in their squad", and "Liverpool added the greatest midfielder in Europe". Seeing how these teams have handled the season, with much more favourable circumstances, I think it would be fair to cut the players and the manager a bit of slack.
But who am I kidding, we're shit. That's the answer emanating from the galaxy brains on the caf.
And City have a much, much better squad. How is this not computing with people?
Not going to lie, if we dont win the europa league by playing convincingly I dont think the feeling around here, including myself, is going to be particularly optimistic for next season. Our key players seem to be slowing down comparing the end of last season.
While Bruno and Rashford are still putting the numbers the performances are not as convincing as they used to be, Martial had a nightmare of a season and while Shaw has had an incredibly great season his last matches have been questionable to say the least and our most impresive player has been 35 year old Cavani.
While Bruno and Rashford are still putting the numbers the performances are not as convincing as they used to be, Martial had a nightmare of a season and while Shaw has had an incredibly great season his last matches have been questionable to say the least and our most impresive player has been 35 year old Cavani.
2nd means your the 2nd best in your league every single year, no matter what the points tally.
This logic means that we only won the league because everybody else in the league was shite in those seasons. Who knew eh, it wasn’t Fergie, just the other dross in the league. City only won it this year because we were all crap...
If we are 2nd on a relatively low points tally then every team below us have still done worse than us irrespective of how many points we have.
It’s a pointless observation.
Jeez so, so negative.
We’ve ambled through these last games the second we secured top four... are we supposed to like that as fans? Hell no, but it’s half expected from most teams, it’s one of the reasons I’m adamant we need a few more leaders in this squad.
I’m disappointed with how we tailed off as well but the point about securing top four is a valid one, also is the fact with Maguire potentially out inured that key players are being told to play with their foot only half on the gas to ensure no further injuries ahead of the final.
We’ve also really missed Maguire in these last couple of games, I hope the fools who claim he’s shite every week have a word with themselves after what we've seen in his absence.
Its not pointless though, it means we are not comfortably 2nd nor that we will be getting the same points (or above) next season. For next season I dont even think we are favorites to end 2nd, still think Liverpool and Chelsea have a better shot than us.
It's almost like a congested season in the midst of a pandemic has had a negative impact on every team in the league. Sure we've looked average at times this season but we've gotten the results when we needed them and did enough to have 2nd place locked up with ~4-5 games to play. That's progress to me. Who cares how many points we got this season compared to others in the past, this season is clearly an anomaly for everyone.
Absolutely. It’s an absolutely pointless observation dissected by the negative bunch, of course they only apply it to us and not the rest of the league.
As you said this season was unique in many respects and it’s had its effect on every single club.
Its about performing with top 4 or not it unnaceptable to be performing like this. I mean we just draw to a relegation team at old trafford, after being on a 4 match bad form patch many of us expected to win convincingly to show form and strenght for the final. Right now it wouldnt surprise me if Villarreal beat us, we look toothless in attack and fragile at the back.
My point is progress is mainly going to come from getting better players. It's the same for all clubs. Hardly anyone is punching above the weight of their squad. Liverpool a prime example, take VVD out and Klopp doesn't look such a genius.
"Much much better"
I mean it's a joke at this point.
You would think we're Newcastle up against Real Madrid's Galacticos. That's the way people go on about the difference between the two squads.
I don’t like it either but it’s a human reaction to achieving a major goal, common in all sports, the moment we couldn’t win the the league and secured top four will have mentally allowed players to step off the gas.
You see it every single year within the top four and at the other scale when clubs have avoided relegation. You get the ‘on their holidays’ phrase coming out.
Put a few players with an edge to them like Keano in that team and they won’t allow it to happen.
I totally agree, it seems like some players dont give a feck about being 2nd or 4th. Hopefully they do care about winning the freaking Europa League, I remember Liverpools season when they won the UCL they were 4th but they were playing so great that many predicted them to be contenders for next year. Something like Chelsea currently, they seem like they are really close for something to click and having something special.
We dont look like that at all, we used to at the end of last season after the covid break. But right now it seems we need at least 3-4 starters to challenge, I dont think anyone here would dare to warranty that next year we will be 2nd favourites. Players should build on the confidence, finishing strong goes a long way for next season, making a point about being 2nd best by distance. Right now we seem like just any other team around the top 4-6.
Hmm, I thought this would be apparent, unless you think Axel is better than Ake, or Bailly is better than Laporte? Or that McFred (
) are as good as Rodri and Fernandinho? Or that Dan James is on the same level as Ferran Torres, let alone this season's Sterling. Or that Alex Telles is better than Cancelo?You're right, your assessment of our squad is a joke at this point
The same could be said about the manager and the coaching staff.
Yeah let's compare our back-up LB to their stand-out right back all seasonHmm, I thought this would be apparent, unless you think Axel is better than Ake, or Bailly is better than Laporte? Or that McFred (
You're right, your assessment of our squad is a joke at this point
Ake has barely played all season and will likely leave the club in a season or two. Not much between him and Axel.
Laporte has regressed a lot this season. He's better than Bailly, but the gap isn't as big as it was.
I'll concede on James and McFred.
Selective choices to make an argument though. Our squads aren't worlds apart like so many think which is my point.
I think those individuals have been too influenced by the views of some woeful journalists and their write ups throughout the season against Solskjaer. Then you have those that are glued to talksport or should i call it talkshit sport.
I'm no fan of Ole or our coaches but you can see the progress on and off the pitch. Do I think Ole is the man to keep us consistently up at the top, no, do i think he has created the right foundation for another manager to come in and take us there, yes.
When Ole took over, our club was rotting to the core. The players were miserable, the fans were miserable, the future looked like we wouldn't win a trophey in a long while. What Ole has done is to have rebalanced the ethos at this club, the players understand more what it is like playing for this badge, the players are no longer openly slated by the manager, some have shown remarkable improvements (Shaw and Greenwood) and the number of defeats we have had in a year has drastically reduced. Forget final appearances because even Fergie didn't reach a final every year, but last season we reached 3 semi finals, this year we had 1 semi, 1 quarter and 1 final. That alone is better results and consistency versus the previous 6 years. We have even finished in the top 4 twice in a row which i believe is the first time since Fergie left. In order to fix the rot, someone has to find the root cause and then apply some quick wins to keep things rolling. I believe this is what Ole has done.
On the other side, I think the football is predictable, I don't agree with some of the choices Ole makes on match days and this double pivot of McFred gives me nightmares. Saying thay, the results are still coming through and he has done this during Covid whereby we have played 2 times on a regular basis in a 7 day period with pretty much the same squad. You can argue that Ole should rotate more, I would agree, but the result is what matters and we basically had 2nd place wrapped up weeks ago.
Give the man a break I say. We need a really good transfer window, a centre back, back up right back, right winger and a defensive midfielder. I wonder what Pep and Klopp would do if they were stuck with Lindeloff, Fred and Mctominay as first teamers and Dan James coming off the bench. Anyone remember Peps first season in England, he just about got City 4th and then we went out with the blessings from teh Sheiks and got the players he needed to build a formidable team. Klopp in his first full year had Dossana, Clyne and and injured Ings, his board then backed him with the Coutinho funds, and then the rest was history. Im no saying that Ole can replicate this, im saying we need our board to give him what he thinks he needs. He has one year left, and despite not being a fan of Ole, i think he deserves to at least see out that final year to see what he is made of. Next season, we have to be challenging for the title, but we need a better first teamers and squad players for this.
When Ole took over, our club was rotting to the core. The players were miserable, the fans were miserable, the future looked like we wouldn't win a trophey in a long while. What Ole has done is to have rebalanced the ethos at this club, the players understand more what it is like playing for this badge, the players are no longer openly slated by the manager, some have shown remarkable improvements (Shaw and Greenwood) and the number of defeats we have had in a year has drastically reduced. Forget final appearances because even Fergie didn't reach a final every year, but last season we reached 3 semi finals, this year we had 1 semi, 1 quarter and 1 final. That alone is better results and consistency versus the previous 6 years. We have even finished in the top 4 twice in a row which i believe is the first time since Fergie left. In order to fix the rot, someone has to find the root cause and then apply some quick wins to keep things rolling. I believe this is what Ole has done.
On the other side, I think the football is predictable, I don't agree with some of the choices Ole makes on match days and this double pivot of McFred gives me nightmares. Saying thay, the results are still coming through and he has done this during Covid whereby we have played 2 times on a regular basis in a 7 day period with pretty much the same squad. You can argue that Ole should rotate more, I would agree, but the result is what matters and we basically had 2nd place wrapped up weeks ago.
Give the man a break I say. We need a really good transfer window, a centre back, back up right back, right winger and a defensive midfielder. I wonder what Pep and Klopp would do if they were stuck with Lindeloff, Fred and Mctominay as first teamers and Dan James coming off the bench. Anyone remember Peps first season in England, he just about got City 4th and then we went out with the blessings from teh Sheiks and got the players he needed to build a formidable team. Klopp in his first full year had Dossana, Clyne and and injured Ings, his board then backed him with the Coutinho funds, and then the rest was history. Im no saying that Ole can replicate this, im saying we need our board to give him what he thinks he needs. He has one year left, and despite not being a fan of Ole, i think he deserves to at least see out that final year to see what he is made of. Next season, we have to be challenging for the title, but we need a better first teamers and squad players for this.
In my opinion, we’re a RW (Sancho) and a Fred upgrade away from being a 90+ pts league team and CL contender.
We’ll be finishing the season on 71/72/74 points which may not seem like a huge improvement on last season, but considering our almost non-existent pre-season, poorly handled transfer window + the fact that we’ve had nothing to play for in the league for a couple weeks now...I think our points tally is misleading. Also don’t forget how most people on here never expected us to even make top four around October/November.
We’re already an 80+ point team in my eyes and our points tally is just a “worst scenario” that was influenced by things Ole could do nothing about.
Regarding the football we play, it’s pretty subjective I guess, but I find us a lot more entertaining to play than what we’ve had to endure under our previous 3 managers. Not even a question.
We’ll be finishing the season on 71/72/74 points which may not seem like a huge improvement on last season, but considering our almost non-existent pre-season, poorly handled transfer window + the fact that we’ve had nothing to play for in the league for a couple weeks now...I think our points tally is misleading. Also don’t forget how most people on here never expected us to even make top four around October/November.
We’re already an 80+ point team in my eyes and our points tally is just a “worst scenario” that was influenced by things Ole could do nothing about.
Regarding the football we play, it’s pretty subjective I guess, but I find us a lot more entertaining to play than what we’ve had to endure under our previous 3 managers. Not even a question.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of valid points there.
I'm very pro-Ole as I think he's the exact type of person we needed to come in, and get the ethos of the club back on track and get us a good way towards where we need to be.
Whether he has the ability / aura to take that next step to PL and CL glory remains to be seen. But he's helped get us going very much in the right direction and he deserves the chance to prove himself one way or the other when we have a squad capable of challenging.
It was always going to take a number of transfer windows to do that, and he's been very unlucky that Covid has slowed the market down - taking us even longer than expected to get some players out and to make the two or three 'big' signings we clearly still need.
If we still don't bring in at least two players in the four positions we need, then Ole will be stymied and any further progress will have to be taken into that context, rather than expecting him to deliver top titles while still having clear weaknesses in the starting XI or squad depth.
However, if he's given two or three of those signings this summer then next season, having already reached 2nd and a EL Final (and maybe winners), we really need to be looking at genuinely competing for the title and / or getting to the later stages of CL for the progress to continue. And that'll be the point we start to find out whether Ole has that next level within him.
Totally agree, i could also mention im not as miserable as I was during Moyes, gaal and Jose. Yes the football should and could be better, but it is a much more exciting transition than we have seen in recent years. Everyone could argue that we are only here because everyone else has been bad, but this is year 2 of everyone being bad and we still secured a top 4 twice.
We have been progressing, but the strikers were disappointing this season. That's all I'm seeing this season.
Cavani missing big chunk of games, Martial shocking, Rashford hot and cold, Greenwood turned it up late.
Football wise, if we're winning it was great to watch, but when we lose and draw, it's borefest (that's football btw).
If our strikers clicked this season, we won't be having this discussion.
Cavani missing big chunk of games, Martial shocking, Rashford hot and cold, Greenwood turned it up late.
Football wise, if we're winning it was great to watch, but when we lose and draw, it's borefest (that's football btw).
If our strikers clicked this season, we won't be having this discussion.
The problem that people keep avoiding in this debate is that our actual football is not improving - the collective organisation, the fluidity in terms of passing and movement, little combinations and being on the same wave length etc After two years of a managerial stint, if top class work has been done on the training ground, these things should be very apparent to the named eye. But with us, it isn't. I see results go up and down based on the form of the individuals (as with any team) and us getting better because have Bruno, or Greenwood or Cavani. What I don't see is the team being elevated by anything else other than their on field efforts on the day i.e the background work.
In fact I see Chelsea, and leaving aside the fact that their attack is woeful, I see Tuchels impact already. The ball retention, ability to find team mates instantly, and the defensive organisation has already come on leaps and bounds.
More than winning/not winning these last 3 games, it's these things not happening that disappoint me.
We better have an incredible transfer summer as I believe City, Chelsea and Liverpool at the very least are much better coached football sides than us. Hence we need our personnel to give us the edge.
In fact I see Chelsea, and leaving aside the fact that their attack is woeful, I see Tuchels impact already. The ball retention, ability to find team mates instantly, and the defensive organisation has already come on leaps and bounds.
More than winning/not winning these last 3 games, it's these things not happening that disappoint me.
We better have an incredible transfer summer as I believe City, Chelsea and Liverpool at the very least are much better coached football sides than us. Hence we need our personnel to give us the edge.
Why we asking this when the season isn't over?
Knee. Jerk.
Knee. Jerk.
Team not relying on world class saves every game does not mean keeper isn't as good. You think De Gea would be our player of the season now even if he was as good as our peak?
Let me spell out this clearly for you:
Us getting better results (back to back top 4) + not reliant on our keeper as much = outfield play is significantly better.
Clear now?