If its truly the case they dont have any kind of physical/hormonal advantage after two years of therapy, i dont see why there should be any issues with it.
Transgender Athletes
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On average they'll be taller and have different bone/muscle/fat ratios. They also won't have the sporting disadvantage of some skeletal and other changes that take place in females puberty.
The evidence on transitioning athletes is broadly that if they keep in full training during the process, then they maintain a lot of their advantages even if taking testosterone suppressants. If they stop/slow training then they lose strength quicker as the lack of testosterone kicks in, and their ability to build muscles back up is constrained by lack of testosterone.
In general terms, away from the elite level and the hard training that accompanies it, there's probably not a lot of sporting advantage for athletes who have physically fully transitioned. I know though that some sports like rugby are nervous of the safety implications (of the on-average calculations) and are talking in terms of only allowing equal participation in the non-contact variants of the game, even at amateur and grassroots level.
Self-declaration would be a massive change though, and could actually do massive damage to women's sport. Particularly at the elite level, where the slowly development of female professional sports - like football - could be derailed very quickly.
Even at the amateur level, self-declaration could turn some competitions into demoralising jokes. Where the role of competition is to inspire, it's important that girls don't end up with the idea that all their efforts might be meaningless if the event winners don't look like the women/girls they can become.
I suppose there is not enough within the transgender community to have a competition specific to them? I do feel it is an unfair advantage really, but what do they do if they want to compete. Too good for the ladies, and don't identify with the men. It's tough.
Surely the logical conclusion is non-gendered sporting competitions? Whoever is best is best?
That's going to require a lot of time and may be impossible in some sports, but in others could be very close. Thinking (obviously) sports that are more about fine technique and less strength or stamina. Is there any physiological reasons a woman shouldn't beat a man at darts for example? Or shooting events?
That's going to require a lot of time and may be impossible in some sports, but in others could be very close. Thinking (obviously) sports that are more about fine technique and less strength or stamina. Is there any physiological reasons a woman shouldn't beat a man at darts for example? Or shooting events?
Well dart is in many ways more of a game than a sport. I think non-gendered sporting competions is a terrible idea because in the ones where athletic ability is important males will always win. If you don't have womens Tennis, football, handball etc, you won't have any women in elite sport. I don't think that transwomens wish to compete in professional sport should change the structure we have in place.
That applies to some sports and non-gendered competition wouldn’t really be an issue for them. Some of those sports are currently non-gendered, or have been in the past. But people are not really talking about that.
Concerns are being raised regarding transgender participation in sports where stamina, speed, strength etc. do play a role and that includes a great deal of them.
Absolutely, and I don't really have a good answer. There are demonstrable advantages to physical performance of having testosterone flowing in abundance, and no real way to 'level' that playing field for athletes with a disproporionate amount.
While it's obvioulsy a very fringe issue right now, I'd be surprised if it went away.
It is almost like VAR. The closer you look, the more you find.
It really depends on whether athletics wants to maintain the male/female system, or eventually is forced to recognise the variations, in a similar way of paralimpics. And once that happens, there is no going back.
It really depends on whether athletics wants to maintain the male/female system, or eventually is forced to recognise the variations, in a similar way of paralimpics. And once that happens, there is no going back.
Yeah something like that.
Take a reading beforehand (i.e. in the run up to the Olympics or whatever) of what the trans athletes can do and compare it to the leading females then add the appropriate penalties.
Ah yeah, it only works for individual sports.
For team sports I guess you'd have to go non-gendered or at least, have a combined team whereby x amount of the team playing have to be of a certain gender, but I imagine that would cause uproar too.
Kinda strange you never hear about women who becomes men, who wants to compete with the men. 
Maybe the reason for that would be that it's not an issue? A trans man has no advantage over a biological man, in a sporting sense. So no need to find special measures for fairness reasons.Kinda strange you never hear about women who becomes men, who wants to compete with the men.
Any common sense should tell you that the advantage of being a man for 35 years is not in the interest of sporting competition, I can't see any other rational argument.
Basically she has gone from a national level athlete at 20 to an Olympic athlete at 35...proof enough in itself.
Are we going to allow the same situation in MMA/Boxing? People can change their bodies and genders as they see fit, its a personal choice but let's not pretend that NO distinctions should ever be made.
Basically she has gone from a national level athlete at 20 to an Olympic athlete at 35...proof enough in itself.
Are we going to allow the same situation in MMA/Boxing? People can change their bodies and genders as they see fit, its a personal choice but let's not pretend that NO distinctions should ever be made.
You missed my point
It's like some do it on purpose to get an advantage in the sport, something a women who changed to man wouldn't do.
these discussions usually centre around one or two specific examples where a trans woman may have beaten a cisgender woman. do we have any wider data that shows this is a sweeping problem? if not, then that says to me there are likely loads of trans women who lose to cisgender women all the time, in all kinds of sports, but it just gets conveniently ignored (confrmation bias).
No, I got your point. It's just a dickish point.You missed my point
It's like some do it on purpose to get an advantage in the sport, something a women who changed to man wouldn't do.
There's certainly a debate to be had here, but that's definitely not the way to have it. No one ever has or will do that "as they see fit". That sort of caricaturing doesn't make the problem any easier to solve.
The 2 young people I know have gone from women to men.Kinda strange you never hear about women who becomes men, who wants to compete with the men.
Sorry, what was the issue with what I said there? Genuine question...
Men aren't going to start transitioning on a whim to be good at sports, and implying otherwise is false and disrespectful. Gender dysphoria is a very serious issue that needs to be discussed rigorously.
I think first of all there aren't many transwomen. And there aren't many transwomen competing in professional sport. So I think in general it's just centered on a few examples.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/
I never suggested they would transition just to be good at sports. What I meant by that is people are free to make their own choices and decisions with their own body, they should also be treated with upmost respect and dignity (as we would anyone hopefully).
My point was that we should not pretend there are no differences between somone born as a woman vs somone who transitions in later life when it comes to sporting competition.
In a sense there can't be a demonstration of it as a sweeping problem because physical gender reassignment is a relatively recent possibility, and is still not a common process. Generally speaking, we have more information on people who've transitioned in their 20s and 30s, and the sheer duration of the process and complexity of passing the various IOC regulations etc wouldn't have allowed them to compete. This is about the (competitive) risks involved opening up the elite sports categories, not about narrowing them. We have more evidence in amateur/sub-elite sports, mostly on people now in their 30s/40s - where it's mostly a non issue.
Most of the comparators since sports were split into men's and women's events actually come from intersex and DSD athletes who compete in women's events but who've been challenged as not biological women. Essentially they're the group who've suffered from the headlines and the most intrusive medical examination. That said, we do know that intersex women are represented in higher numbers in women's elite athletics than in the broader community.
At present it's about individual athletes, but it's individual athletes who win medals and that's who we notice and who little girls looking for role models see. I wouldn't have a problem in individual athletics if (for a time) we offered duplicate medals to XX women where non-XX women were in the medal places. But I also know that that is massively (and publicly) intrusive in its handling of intersex and transgender athletes. Nor does it solve the issue for professional head to head sports like tennis or for the fledgling professional team sports like football.
Yep for them, if they were interested in competitive sport, they'd have a tough time in most men's events (though in terms of the major sporting bodies there are no rules against it). They'd only be allowed to compete in women's sport if they came off testosterone and similar drugs, which again isn't great for them mentally or physically, but does offer an option.
Should never happen in elite sports especially physical ones Martial Arts, Boxing etc.
No problem if people wanna make an extra category to include trans in sports and they can compete against each other.
No problem if people wanna make an extra category to include trans in sports and they can compete against each other.
This makes no sense, I don't think anyone is claiming it's the no. 1 issue in sport or anything like that? If loads of drug cheats didn't win events, but 1 or 2 did, would you not think that drugs in sport were worth talking about? I'm sure the women that could possibly lose out on an Olympic medal would consider it an issue worth discussing.
What about Caster Semenya? She is born female and yet she is discriminated against.
Life isnt fair. But at least her's was pure gene RNG and not man made.
This wasnt a confirmation bias. Although still... if I'm transitioning tomorrow i wont suddenly be able to beat serena williams. But I'll probably easilly beat a natural woman my age who's roughly had the same training as me. And sports being a competition where most trains hard on equal amount, that advantages is the sure winner. We're not talking about 2-3 percent stronger but way much stronger, faster.
1:1 the trans athletes has undeniable advantages.
I'm sure her dad was involved.
Yep, I think the debate is at its cruellest when it comes to athletes like Caster. For the majority of history, including the history of separate male/female sport her status as a woman would not have been challenged.
Crass as it sounds, the beginning and end of any "sex test" would have been a quick look at external body parts. Gradually the debate changed as we learned more about genetics, and as things like anti-doping blood tests started throwing up anomalies.
Caster herself has been subject to some very intrusive and insulting treatment. Which illustrates one of the problems of discussion of things like personalized handicap profiles etc - it's actually so personal that it quickly becomes degrading.
Standardised things like "testosterone limits" sound ok until you realise that they are potentially medically damaging to the people involved who may have to take drugs to meet the standards. It's not a nice situation and I do think athletes like Caster have actually got caught up in this bigger debate about transgender rights, and she's been treated worse because of it.
Exactly. It is a natural phenomenon. She should be allowed to compete. Whatever her body produces naturally should not be a barrier for her to compete. As another OP suggested then make everyone has the same level of testosterone. What is average should not be considered the limit.
Im wondering what sorts of numbers of transgender athletes there are, Im guessing their numbers at this point are pretty low.
I remember an interview of a transgender girl in america who dominated in high school and everyone was complaining about how unfair it was, then she went to the nationals and got her ass kicked. No one cared anymore.
Unless all transgender women are winning all the competitions I don't think we can make a direct connection. Maybe they're just better and those who lose use it an excuse.
Unless all transgender women are winning all the competitions I don't think we can make a direct connection. Maybe they're just better and those who lose use it an excuse.
This.
A man is born a man.
I'd only be for it if physicality didn't come into it.
Like dressage or Ice skating or one of the sports that involves skill or finesse.
Anything involving physicality , strength, conditioning and/or stamina has to be left out. There just isn't enough data or science to back up an argument for a level playing field.
Olympians get one shot every 4 years and its not fair that they wouldn't be able to compete at a level with other women.
If that happens you’re trying to close the stable door long after the horse has bolted. Consider how many trans female vs cis female athletes competing at the highest level. Really only takes one or two gold medals to raise red flags.
Human rights and dignity are more important than sporting competitions by such a massive factor that I'm surprised it's such a debate amongst sensible thinking folk really.
If an injustice is going to be committed I'd rather one that can be rectified, even if in an imperfect way. If you ban transgender women and it turns out there's no advantage, then that's that, we'll never know how they would've done. If you allow them to participate and we discover that indeed the advantage was what caused the win, you can rectify the results, like it happens in cycling all the time because of doping.
Imperfect, sure, but better than just banning while the jury is still out.
A year ago or so a transgender athlete here got some heat because of this issue. She ended up not winning anything. I suspect this will be the case for 99.9% of transgender athletes, they'll never win olympics or world championships. By the law of averages, some will eventually win, but maybe it's probably because they're better.
With so many questions up in the air, banning people as a preventative measure goes against the olympic spirit. The rules say participating is a human right, we should not deny any woman that.
That's exactly what they did to Caster Semenya. She is not even transgender. She was born a female with female sex organs and no male sex organs.