Really!
You think “Linesmen are told to keep flag down on corners and throwins”?
Is this a joke ?
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
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You think “Linesmen are told to keep flag down on corners and throwins”?
Is this a joke ?
What are you talking about? A third party has watched footage back and determined when linesmen did or didn't make errors to study this definitively. Why are you getting hung up on the concept of someone watching match footage to spot errors?
I never said anything about introducing "some kind of offset". The point is that frame rate is a limiting factor and makes the whole thing pointless. You can't have millimeter-specific decisions made at one end whilst having a set of options for when a foot hit a ball based on frame rate. It makes the entire thing arbitrary and freeze framing should be binned until there are high frame rate cameras that are mobile at either end. Until then, the notion that VAR is somehow objective is a joke.
You know that VAR is an improvement - decision accuracy has gone from 98% to 98.9%. Is that worth all the bullshit associate with VAR? I'd suggest that it isn't even remotely close to being worthwhile, and this is notwithstanding potential improvements that VAR could be used for (e.g. being used on normal speed to quickly check whether a decision is obviously wrong).
Mate you need to work on your reading comprehension. Linesmen are being told to keep their flags down on offside decisions so that VAR can retrospectively arbitrate - this is not a matter of dispute. If play doesn't result in a goal scoring situation, teams are often getting unjustified corners and throws that would have been called back for offside pre-VAR. Yes lineos are meant to flag after the fact but it simply isn't happening at the same rate it used to.
If you going to simply insult and spout drivel then crack on.
You said , I quote , “not captured in all of this is how many corners or throws are given because the assistant has been told to default to keeping his flag down” . You know this is laughable right ? I think you mean offsides only?
On 98% linesman accuracy by reviewing footage. Again, what footage do they have that is better than VAR to review millimetre decisions. Such a flawed thing to say. Sure they can review footage where is is 1 or 2 yards clear mistake but not otherwise.
And you've taken a quote completely out of context. Congratulations. Perhaps consider reading what I was responding to before making a horse's arse of yourself?
No one said that the footage used to review is better than VAR - where on earth are you getting this from? The point is that before VAR as far as anyone could tell, decisions were right 98% of the time. With VAR, decisions are right 98.9% of the time as far as anyone can tell. If you think that a 0.9% gain in decision-making is worth the fundamental changes VAR has brought into the game then so be it and I hope you enjoy your spreadsheets.
Also, this notion that VAR is accurate in terms of ruling on millimeter decisions is fundamentally misguided - going back to the issue of frame rate that's apparently sailed over your head.
Not sure why you keep using thos bs stats while at the same time correctly saying yourself we don't have the technology to accurately tell what was actually offside and what isn't.
Agreed
Can somebody explain me, why that goal from Bale counted after the handball from Kane?
The rule is pretty clear before scoring a goal. Just has to touch the hand and it's pretty obvious.
Just because it's Golden Boy Kane?
The rule is pretty clear before scoring a goal. Just has to touch the hand and it's pretty obvious.
Just because it's Golden Boy Kane?
Apparently it wasn't "immediately" leading to a goal. Which is absolute nonsense but that's what they'll say.
But yeah, Should definitely have been disallowed.
Yes. Can't see it not being disallowed in 99/100 cases.
Because the point is that VAR hasn't had a massive positive impact. I don't care if the specific figure is exactly accurate, but it's a complete nonsense to suggest that VAR has dramatically improved the standard of refereeing.
Well firstly, thanks for not replying with an insult.
My honest thoughts on VAR are both positive, negatives and media double standards.
Negatives (included where I think it is too invasive)
- It really has destroyed enjoyment of celebrating a goal. Fans (well myself anyway) now look for VAR invention after every goal.
- Offsides, now linesman instructed to leave flag down when not sure, are aweful. Play continues and if a goal scored it is reviewed. This is mainly down to the time taken to review.
- I thought VAR was mainly introduced to stop the blatent fouling (holding) by defenders on corners. This seems to be largely ignored now.
- Penalties, It was in the spotlight when keeper moved off line or players encroached for maybe 3 weekends. Now it just happens again and nothing is done.
Positives
+Most obvious offsides/onsides , that pre VAR were mistakes, are now picked up.
+Goal line tech. pretty much eliminates chance of horrendous errors. Lampard (World Cup) , Mendes (Old Trafford).
MOTD/Managers
- handball. They call for “Common Sense” one week then shout VAR mistake the next.
- Diving. Players (attacker for example) now know that any contact in the box can be reviewed and so will drop like a stone in agony for a penalty. Vardy, de Beek yesterday. Both clipped. MOTD claim “minimal contact”. This undermines the whole VAR system as then it becomes subjective.
- Post match Manager inteviews are (to me ) unbearable. Losing manager claiming every VAR is a joke. Winning manager claims he saw everything and VAR got it spot on.
In summary
The game is for the fans..
Part of what we loved and hated about the game was to debate referee decisions, fouls, penalties etc..
Do we want this to become micro-analysed on Video or memories fom the stands.
Why not have a fans referendem to decide on future of VAR, a set of standards when it is used and accept and move on
Frame rate doesn’t matter, ok 
Offside has become a joke, same as these subjective decisions that Sometimes get overturned and sometimes don’t, all while fecking up the enjoyment of the sport.
Offside has become a joke, same as these subjective decisions that Sometimes get overturned and sometimes don’t, all while fecking up the enjoyment of the sport.
the law was amended earlier in the season, as long as it's accidental handball and not scored by the scorer, the goal will stand, same thing happened in the Cup final
Well totally agree on it destroying the sport.Frame rate doesn’t matter, ok
Offside has become a joke, same as these subjective decisions that Sometimes get overturned and sometimes don’t, all while fecking up the enjoyment of the sport.
I say frame rate doesn’t matter as I think its camera resolution. You could have 5000 frames per second but you still won’t get a clear picture from millisecond of contact. Talk of margin of error (for me) is pointless as you could just introduce an error where maybe the frame did absolutely capture the correct point.
We will end up in a situation where clubs place there own system in and decisions start ending up in lawsuits.
A perfect world would be where it only takes a couple of seconds to signal ref.
Don't necessarily disagree with much of this and I think you're right to suggest a fan referendum - I'd be surprised it if ever happened though.
But fundamentally this is why I don't think freeze framing should be a thing at all. Just eliminate the entire source of error in the first place.
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Not to jinx it after one round of games but VAR is so much easier to get on with in this tournament than in the PL season just gone.
Partly due to better protocols around its use, partly due to better officials and partly due to every vaguely debateable decision not being spun as a scandal by the media.
What a load of fecking shit.
After feck all matches there's been feck all difficult situations.
There's nothing to compare it with.
Dont think its misused but the foreign tv coverage seems a lot more lenient to these decisions. Sky etc obsess over close calls to the point a 50/50 call is replayed over and over again and Neville never shuts up about it. Now you're lucky to get a replay and if you do its one and done.
Not really. We've had handball and offside decisions that would have been explicitly handled differently in the PL in the season just gone because the rules & protocols are different in this tournament.
Even if you're not paying much attention to it you should have noticed how much less intrusive offside checks are, for example. Because both the way they handle marginal calls and the way they present the decisions aren't the same.
As for the standard of refereeing, it's pretty self evidently better. They're picking the best refs and vars from across Europe rather than just across England and the standard is naturally higher as a result.
No doubt the PL is making an absolute mess of it but yes you can't compare the two yet. A tool to improve the game has been transformed to a tool to create more controversy by the Premier League.
Which ones?
Portugal's 3rd goal today. The handball claim from Ronaldo as well probably.
All the offside decisions have been presented differently and all the marginal calls have been handled differently as they are following rules akin to the CL ones from last year (which the PL will be adopting next year). Which means none of the on-screen line drawing and more leniency (and less delay) in how the marginal calls are dealt with.
As for the handballs, they've adopted the 21/22 rules for this tournament, which are again more lenient as the way the natural position of the arms is determined is different. Which was relevant in a handball call in the Turkey/Italy game for one. I don't think we've seen an attacking handball offence yet but they will be judged differently too, now only punishable if the goalscorer handles and then scores immediately.
How, they've barely shown any replays. Like the Benzema goal when Mbappe was offside.
The handball rules are pretty much universeal
How so?
I thought that was a penalty for Mbappe.
We'd have gotten lines and 2 minutes of delay for both incidents probably. Think the way handballs especially have been handled has been excellent.
You do realise that they show replays to fill dead air because VAR is scrutinising whether someone's toenail is offside by drawing arbitrary lines, right? Not showing replays because the VAR is getting on with it can only be a good thing.
Barely showing anything is exactly the point. They present it differently by showing much, much less. Offside checks that would see the lines being drawn on-screen in the PL pass by unnoticed here because they don't present those workings on-screen at all even when the same process is happening. And you get fewer of those checks anyway because they're more lenient on marginal calls. It's designed so you notice it less and the game rolls on without delays and replays.
So for the Benzema goal you mention for example, we just got an image showing the offside several minutes later rather than spending time watching replays and calculations taking place.
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So you're unhappy because they show the lines that the draw up, instead of just showing you the image a few minutes later
It wouldn't, under the current rules, have been a handball in the Premier League either.
In terms of Portugals third, we have no idea because they didn't show the lines
No.So you're unhappy because they show the lines that the draw up, instead of just showing you the image a few minutes later
As I've just explained to you across multiple posts, under this system there are fewer delays making offside calls and fewer calls made on the basis of marginal offsides. So the entire process is quicker and doesn't produce the same mm calls people complain about so much.
In addition to that, we don't get presented with the calculation images that so regularly irk people and/or see them take still images from halfway through a process they don't understand as proof that the call is wrong. Which is an improvement too.
All of which makes the entire process more light-touch and less intrusive, which is what people have so vocally wanted from VAR offsides.
You sure? Because his hand was away from his body and it did help him stifle Ronaldo running through...think we'd at least get a monitor visit in the PL personally.
And my point is that not showing the lines is in fact a good outcome and further evidence that VAR is being more judiciously applied. I don't need to see whether someone is offside by a fraction of a centimetre nor do I want to - it's completely contrary to the spirit of the law. If the VAR has a look and decides quickly that there's been no infraction I can't see why that's a bad thing and we'd need to see lines at all? Especially considering the (rather large) margin of error associated with the lines anyway.
Where was VAR while pogba was being bitten?
That’s the biggest reason for VAR in my opinion, the blatant stamps and bites and elbows a ref doesn’t see not silly offsides, but forget the offsides for now because they only seem to check what they feel like with those so far
That’s the biggest reason for VAR in my opinion, the blatant stamps and bites and elbows a ref doesn’t see not silly offsides, but forget the offsides for now because they only seem to check what they feel like with those so far
I disagree with him about other leagues but in UEFA competitions, I think the lack of transparency does help in some sense. For offsides, officials seems to be more lenient and they don't show them drawing the lines. Equally with red cards or penalty incidents they make sure not to show a load of replays and from what I've seen they are a more strict with only getting involved in the clear and obvious mistakes. In the PL, while not everything is overturned, I feel they tend to look at absolutely everything and take a bit longer as a result.
Care to elaborate how there are fewer calls made on the basis of marginal offsides?
The more interesting question is, if he had awarded the penalty would it have been overturned.
In terms of why it's a bad thing, if you're going to have video refereeing then you want consistency. If 40% of the referees quickly determine it's offside while 60% reckons it's onside, then what's the point..
The Euros (and the PL next season) are treating offsides in a way akin to the CL last year or the Dutch league by effectively introducing a margin of error on narrow offside calls.
The Dutch and the CL do it in slightly different ways and I think the Euros are following the CL approach but in effect it has the same outcome.
It means that the narrowest of offsides that fall within that effective MOE don't get called. It also means the delay from the full calibration process on those calls is skipped, as (in the CL's method) it can stop once the first line is drawn if it's obviously marginal.
Incidentally I've just read that the Euros have an extra VAR specifically for offsides, which would also speed decisions up in cases where there are multiple things to assess. So in general you're getting fewer and quicker interventions.
I understand what you mean but there still doesn’t seem to be consistency.
Was the right also goal even looked at?
Did any var view the Hummels tackle, that was really iffy.
No one saw the bite?
I like VAR not being involved but if it’s there to be used surely they should be using it
Aye, calls like that are always the big problem as there's no easy fix for them like there is with offsides.
Plus they still don't really explain decisions. At least if they were mic'd up like in other sports you'd hear why they were giving whatever decision rather than being left to guess.
The prem is the problem. Remember World Cup 2018 when it was first brought in and it wasn't bad at all. Then the premier league gets their hands on it and makes it seem like the worst thing in the world and start making things up, almost sabotaging it. It's been very good these euros so far. No need to do super long checks on normal goals like the premier league goes. No need to start drawing lines for offside, if it looks on then it's on, if it's tight then do a quick line and make a call. Don't spend an hour doing everything.