Very good squad, probably not good enough to win a big tournament though. Should be competing and reaching advanced stages but that's about it.
Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
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I think the last world cup we were pretty set in terms of the starting eleven, no?
We have a great squad but when you sacrifice attacking options for 2 DMs and not use the options from the bench you need to ask questions of the manager.
A top manager wouldn't start that combination, though. We're not stacked in the middle of the park but we should be looking a LOT better in that third than we do at the moment. That's on Southgate.
Donnarumma, Chiellini, Bonucci, Verratti, Locatelli, Jorginho all walk in without a moments of hesitation. England have good fullbacks, #10's and wingers and Kane as a striker. What use is that when they can't pass it up properly? Italy has a brilliant spine through the middle and good enough around them, with by far the best national team manager to get the best out of them. England have a non existent midfield in terms of passing, a mediocre goalkeeper, and mediocre CB's with Maguire injured. And then a manager who is picking options that make them worse than they need to be in attack. If we're talking Sancho or Grealish vs Insigne and Berardi, it's easy England. If its Sterling on the left and Foden on the right, then give me Berardi and Insigne please.
And yes of course Germany. Low is also a disaster for them. Flick will take charge after the euros and they'll all of a sudden become favourites for the next world cup. They are capable of fielding Bayerns entire midfield and attack minus Lewandowski, while having Kroos and Gundogan as midfield depth. They have Neuer in goal. They have excellent CB options. They lack a striker and a proper left back but they're quite good everywhere else with loads of depth, but Low is stuck in 2014 and isn't picking the right players.
Yeah I understand that if you are playing a big side but against Scotland it was mind boggling
Agreed, deserves to at least come on.
Southgate has gotten far too much credit for the 2018 World Cup. Which was basically beating terrible teams with set pieces and penalties.
I know there are people on here who will hate me for this, or accuse me of having an agenda, but it does remind me of Ole tbh.
Not got the best team to work with, but at the same timedoesn’t utilise what he has to it’s full potential.
safety first, no plan B.
Not got the best team to work with, but at the same timedoesn’t utilise what he has to it’s full potential.
safety first, no plan B.
The style of play was there to see. Sideways and backwards passing. No penetration. These players do not play like that with their clubs. The only player who looked forward was Mount and Foden started to in the second half. Just negative boring football.
Why bring Ole into this? The whole thread has absolutely nothing to do with him.
Was thinking the same screaming at the TV. None of them play that way for their clubs so why were they playing that way for England?
My only answer was Southgate. He wasn’t going for the win, he was being Southgate and trying not to lose as opposed to trying to win. I hate it…
Yep, an agenda.
Yeah. Far enough to was a SF but they lost to Belgium twice and Croatia. Beat Columbia on penos and Tunisia in the least second.
It all counts and any fan will take a Portugal run in the Euros if they won it but they went out to Croatia so you have to question the results especially when the performances aren’t there
England have one of the best attacking line ups in world football. Its ridiculous how much talent they have available.
And yet we struggled to break down scotland who are largely shite.
Its Southgate. He's a coward.
And yet we struggled to break down scotland who are largely shite.
Its Southgate. He's a coward.
Wasn't he a Sir Alex/Sacchi hybrid after you beat Panama and a few other none teams to get to semis last tournament?
What could the higher ups be upset about? This isn't club football where an owner might get annoyed whenever managers ask for a bigger transfer budget.
What could Southgate do that could annoy the higher ups?
None of the players, particularly Rice, Philips, Mings, Stones, etc. seemed interested in trying to break the lines with a pass. The chances were there and they took the safe boring option every time.
Especially Rice, on the subject of overrated players.
Especially Rice, on the subject of overrated players.
Finishing 3rd last year and 2nd this year is utilising this side to its full potential. I know the league doesn’t count these days for the hipster Ole out agenda but that’s just the plain simple truth.
To answer the question ironically England seriously lack a CM after being blessed with them in days gone by. And Sterling needs dropping. The latter is on Southgate I guess.
I'd struggle to know why anyone would think it's the players. Southgate is one of those managers who comes across well, well mannered and positive. Probably relatively good man management, and definitely a positive environment he creates. But if that's all there was to being a great manager there'd be a plethora of them.
No but that's definitely the Abe narrative.
Rice is so mediocre with the ball. It makes no sense to have both him and Philipps in midfield. Much rather play one deeper and have Mount and Grealish play in the middle in a 4-1-4-1. Sancho needs his chance on the right side as well as it’s not happening for Foden.
They were 100% instructed not to. Southgates interview at the end basically said ‘as the game went on it was more important not to lose than win’.
His formation with 2 DMs led for slow build up the entire game, and isolated players against a Scottish side hell bent on defending as a unit. We weren’t attacking as a unit, so it was never going to work.
Southgate was not willing to go all out. Playing it safe, boring and crap to watch.
Yeah don't think anyone thought that tbh but enjoy the narrative you've constructed!
I think it depends on how you rate them.
For example (Regarding the NT) If you look at this team and say they are a Round of 16/ QF maybe a semi final team, then I think you are appropriately rating them. If you look and say definitely capable of winning each competition they are in, then you are overrating them.
From an individual front, none of these players (in my opinion) would be part of a world XI. And none of these players are focal points in a side that can dominate their league or cup competitions. Look at all the English teams who have won the league or CL over the last 5-6 years none of their English players (especially on this national side) were the main reasons for it. Not to diminish their roles, because team work is a facet of title winning sides when everyone understands their role, but certainly none of them were the best player on each respective team.
All that aside England is still unbeaten. It's early in the competition and anything can happen. Tournaments can be heavily influenced by the luck of a draw over quality.
Edit: I don't think Southgate helps the cause at all.
For example (Regarding the NT) If you look at this team and say they are a Round of 16/ QF maybe a semi final team, then I think you are appropriately rating them. If you look and say definitely capable of winning each competition they are in, then you are overrating them.
From an individual front, none of these players (in my opinion) would be part of a world XI. And none of these players are focal points in a side that can dominate their league or cup competitions. Look at all the English teams who have won the league or CL over the last 5-6 years none of their English players (especially on this national side) were the main reasons for it. Not to diminish their roles, because team work is a facet of title winning sides when everyone understands their role, but certainly none of them were the best player on each respective team.
All that aside England is still unbeaten. It's early in the competition and anything can happen. Tournaments can be heavily influenced by the luck of a draw over quality.
Edit: I don't think Southgate helps the cause at all.
It really was ridiculous the way the kept banging on about him, ultimately for him to do nothing after coming on. Good player but further proof of overrating of English players.
My favourite part of the night was after whinging for 60 mins for him to come on and him then doing very little Dixon then starts moaning about him not playing centrally
They've got a decent squad but it almost seems like they're still traumatized from past tournaments. Rice and Philips in midfield is a bit much going against Scotland surely.
Both. England players are overrated for sure but that's natural with so many doing so well for their clubs...but main issue is Southgate. I realize midfield options are limited but doesn't help when Sterling keeps playing ahead of Grealish and Sancho doesn't get a single minute. It's hard enough with the best possible team.
This england team needs a proper spanking from france or similar top nation. Maybe that will take the southgate rose tinted spectacles off peoples eyes and realise how average we really are.
We have a few players* other nations would love to have in their national team but as usual we dont use them properly or play them when they are out of form or don't build a team around their strengths or we let they waste away on the fringes of the squad.
* Grealish, Sancho, Kane come to mind.
We have a few players* other nations would love to have in their national team but as usual we dont use them properly or play them when they are out of form or don't build a team around their strengths or we let they waste away on the fringes of the squad.
* Grealish, Sancho, Kane come to mind.
Both. The squad is really not that strong as made out, the talent is vastly overrated.
Feck me he got 27 minutes you lunaticsMy favourite part of the night was after whinging for 60 mins for him to come on and him then doing very little Dixon then starts moaning about him not playing centrally
Coming into a game and making an impact is hard as it is, yet I see online both Rashford and Grealish are getting shit for not instantly turning the game around. Mad when they both got a measly amount of minutes.
It's the manager. Sancho and Rashford aren't the cure all
We're better than how we look under a totally, and I mean totally under qualified manager. Southgate is as average as can be.
Playing Grealish and/or Sancho doesn't automatically mean england start turning over teams. Still need integration into the team. 30 mins is not enough time.
He’s a very good player but the building up of him was ludicrous. “Not even Grealish could save England” - sweet Jesus Matterface! And the way Sancho gets ignored is odd.Feck me he got 27 minutes you lunatics
Ignoring Sancho is typical English though innit? He plays in Germany so he suffers much the same as Owen Hargreaves back in the day.
We do overhype our players, we love to compare them. Both foden and grealish have been called the new Gazza, numerous times, which neither of them are. They are two totally different players in a different era of the game. They get asked about it in press conferences and interviews constantly. It’s just hype on the biggest level.
no doubting though, that with a better manager the team would be different. Southgate doesn’t know how to unlock all this talent we have, it’s a waste.
defensive, safe manager.
would love to see sancho and grealish start the next game.
no doubting though, that with a better manager the team would be different. Southgate doesn’t know how to unlock all this talent we have, it’s a waste.
defensive, safe manager.
would love to see sancho and grealish start the next game.
KDB came on yesterday and made a massive impact in less time. That's a player you obsess over when on the bench not Grealish. Like I said, Grealish is a very good player but you would've thought he was 2006 Ronaldinho the way the commentators were banging on about him.Feck me he got 27 minutes you lunatics
Coming into a game and making an impact is hard as it is, yet I see online both Rashford and Grealish are getting shit for not instantly turning the game around. Mad when they both got a measly amount of minutes.
Absolutely spot on - the closest thing to proof you'll see that English players are still getting overrated as well. I'd argue that Portugal are the closest side to France in terms of raw talent in this tournament pretty comfortably. England belong in the next group with Germany, Italy, and Belgium, but it's ridiculous to argue that England's squad is significantly better than any of those 4.
Think you're also right to point out the issues through the spine of the team - having a solid base will always be disproportionately important in international tournaments.