[Giggsforever]

There were also times when pogba covered for Kante. It's called a team sport. There was no clear scenario where pogba didn't defend or was clearly at fault for losing his man.

Several times he was not tracking back as he should and several times he left open to much space. Just look at the 3-3 goal, it was over time at 3-2 at the euro's and he did not track back. Vieira and Keane blasted him for it.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

He was utterly magnificent yesterday, and has been player of the tournament for me, to this point.

Agree, watching the likes of him and Benzema do things others can't is what it's all about for me

 

[Rolaholic]

Now you can't even celebrate scoring worldies for your country I see or else you're an arrogant prick according to the precious lot in here

Shame Shaqiri never got the memo with the amount of times he rips off his shirt after scoring bangers for Switzerland.

 

[Dec9003]

To be fair, that’s pretty disgusting on a number of levels. As a London Red, and based on my own social groups, I never really experience that sort of Pogba hatred in the real world, more seems to be something I’d expect more up north. Hearing that little story just puts some of the things I read online (on the caf and beyond) into reality for me, reminds me that there are actual real people behind these posts and that is what they probably look like. Up until now, this is something that exists on the Internet or television only to me.

That’s a bit of an ignorant thing to say. You’re no more likely to find people like that up north than you are down south.

 

[Silverman]

You can tell because it’s killing his usual boring detractors.

They are like flat-earthers at this point.

United have got to find a way to free him up to play his own game.

 

[Mainoldo]

Spectacularly dumb logic. It’s a tangent so I won’t go on about it but you really need to stop accusing other fans of being “low IQ” when you come out with nonsense like that.

It’s kind of what helps most arguements when discussing X player against Y. So unless you are out here claiming a Paul Scholes vs Gerrard argument has never been won with how many league titles did he get? I would kinda drop your stupid Low IQ point.

 

[Rozay]

That’s a bit of an ignorant thing to say. You’re no more likely to find people like that up north than you are down south.

How do you know that?

Besides, I simply said it’s an expectation of mine.

 

[Bertie 2 Hats]

Paul Pogba v Switzerland... 101 total touches.. 92 percent pass accuracy.. 6 attempted take-ons.. 5 successful take-ons.. 4 chances created.. 3 fouls suffered.. 2 attempted tackles.. 2 successful tackles.. 1 goal...

 

[eire-red]

Several times he was not tracking back as he should and several times he left open to much space. Just look at the 3-3 goal, it was over time at 3-2 at the euro's and he did not track back. Vieira and Keane blasted him for it.

The criticism of him is just lazy though. How many times did Mbappe squander defence splitting passes from Pogba?

Slamming him for one moment where he lost the ball towards the end of the match is just looking for a scapegoat. He was a massive reason why they were 3-1 up in the first place.

Lenglet got dominated in the air for the first, Rabiot didn't close down the cross for the second. Pogba lost the ball in midfield for the third, but Kimpembe also got skinned by a Swiss player probably none of us have ever heard of.

The problem with people like Keane and Viera is that they want Pogba to do everything in midfield. The game has evolved beyond that, the pace and physical demands are too great to be a world class B2B midfielder. Pogba scored a worldie, created so many chances, and put in a really good performance.

People just want to hate him for not being perfect. It's tiring.

 

[Dec9003]

How do you know that?

Besides, I simply said it’s an expectation of mine.

It’s an ignorant expectation, I’ve found it’s all too common that southerners have negative expectations of northerners, to support United at the same time is a new one for me though.

 

[DWelbz19]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Again. Let the discussion always continue with context.




Talk me through this mistake and how he held the ball for too long please. The video is there.

I hadn’t actually rewatched this until someone else mentioned it in the other thread. It’s a poor pass from Benzema and an abysmal piece of defending by Kimpembe. How Pogba is getting the blame for this goal astounds me.

 

[Frank White]

It’s kind of what helps most arguements when discussing X player against Y. So unless you are out here claiming a Paul Scholes vs Gerrard argument has never been won with how many league titles did he get? I would kinda drop your stupid Low IQ point.

Huh? The poster implied that because Sporting sold Bruno that was a factor as to why they won the league. He was clearly using it as a way to disparage Bruno for some weird reason.

 

[Rozay]

It’s an ignorant expectation, I’ve found it’s all too common that southerners have negative expectations of northerners, to support United at the same time is a new one for me though.

Maybe. Let’s just say that all such views are of an equal percentage in every single part of the country, which of course is the right thing to say.

 

[Dec9003]

Maybe. Let’s just say that all such views are of an equal percentage in every single part of the country, which of course is the right thing to say.

Exactly, you’re just as likely to find a racist northerner as you are a racist southerner, there’ll be plenty of them at Wembley tonight booing whilst the players take the knee.

 

[Rozay]

I hadn’t actually rewatched this until someone else mentioned it in the other thread. It’s a poor pass from Benzema and an abysmal piece of defending by Kimpembe. How Pogba is getting the blame for this goal astounds me.

I suspect you’re not the only to have not rewatched it. Those who have said ‘held on to the ball for too long’ or ‘didn’t keep it simple’ likely didn’t either, and have just resorted to things they have said before.

I also think Kanté is poor there too. Gavranovic runs off him to the point where he’s in acres, and every other Swiss player was marked. That was the man in Kanté’s zone. If you see both of their starting positions, and their ending positions, it’s not great from Kanté and the exact type of poor tracking that is synonymous with Pogba typically.

That said, Pogba obviously has a role, so if we are really nitpicking, then I appreciate that we can’t discount him altogether. But the goal isn’t his fault of course, it’s not one of those ‘he gave the ball away and they scored’ scenarios like Fred vs Leicester.

 

[Mainoldo]

Huh? The poster implied that because Sporting sold Bruno that was a factor as to why they won the league. He was clearly using it as a way to disparage Bruno for some weird reason.

Forgot Bruno; Pogba. The question is.. is it stupid to big a player up for trophies won when it’s a team game.

 

[Yagami]

Also never seen a United talent divide opinion as much as probably since Veron's first season..

That says a lot.

Nani and Rooney post 11/12 are up there with Pogba

 

[lost7]

How is Micah the only ex player/pundit crediting him for that performance?

 

[Rozay]

Exactly, you’re just as likely to find a racist northerner as you are a racist southerner, there’ll be plenty of them at Wembley tonight booing whilst the players take the knee.

‘Just as likely?’. Without wanting to derail, these types of arguments are always a little futile without exact data, and the classic ending is to just say ‘you can’t say that, how do you know, not every northerner’ etc. But there are very tangible reasons based on factual demographics, voting patterns and frankly living in this country my whole life why I don’t think it’s a stretch to say ‘I’d expect it more there than there’. That doesn’t tarnish everyone, of course it doesn’t, but it’s also a stretch to say that growing up in a more cosmo environment and one where you’re there’s only one minority in the village doesn’t have any bearing on views people MAY form. Certainly I don’t think it’s ignorant to say so. I don’t disagree that such views can be found everywhere, of course. But just as frequently? Maybe, maybe not - I’ve presented no fact, just a feeling, which I don’t think is an unreasonable one considering.

 

[Rozay]

How is Micah the only ex player/pundit crediting him for that performance?

By the time it’s all settled we’ll be talking back about ‘a poor season, a poor Euros’. With no obvious winners medal to correct that view, details will probably become a little hazy over time until at least, the consensus will be that he was ‘average at the Euros with one or two good moments’.

 

[Zlatan 7]

How is Micah the only ex player/pundit crediting him for that performance?

He’s not ?

 

[The Original]

I agree with you, but a world class central midfielder should be a bit more aware imo, he played the ball to benzema when benzema had nowhere to go, he was always going to get it back from him, but instead of dealing with it quickly he tried to roll his foot over the ball.

and we’re talking about Pogba not Kante. I’ve already said numerous times Kante didn’t cover himself in glory there either, and kimpembe even worse!

Benzena should have gone out to Sissoko. It was the obvious option.

At that point Pogba is tired and you lose a bit of sharpness. He does lose some concentration but also he's trusting Benzema's judgment, and believes that he must be unmarked to receive the ball there.

Biggest mistake is from Benzema because at that point in the game you should be playing away from the centre to the flanks as much as possible.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Benzena should have gone out to Sissoko. It was the obvious option.

At that point Pogba is tired and you lose a bit of sharpness. He does lose some concentration but also he's trusting Benzema's judgment, and believes that he must be unmarked to receive the ball there.

Biggest mistake is from Benzema because at that point in the game you should be playing away from the centre to the flanks as much as possible.

I agree with this after watching it about fifty million times (@Rozay ). But once benzema doesn’t and pogba is not fully aware of his surroundings he has to deal with that and hit it wide himself, not causally try rolling his foot over the ball.

that’s my only opinion on it, forget blame, forget agendas, it’s just what I think of that moment.

 

[Dec9003]

‘Just as likely?’. Without wanting to derail, these types of arguments are always a little futile without exact data, and the classic ending is to just say ‘you can’t say that, how do you know, not every northerner’ etc. But there are very tangible reasons based on factual demographics, voting patterns and frankly living in this country my whole life why I don’t think it’s a stretch to say ‘I’d expect it more there than there’. That doesn’t tarnish everyone, of course it doesn’t, but it’s also a stretch to say that growing up in a more cosmo environment and one where you’re there’s only one minority in the village doesn’t have any bearing on views people MAY form. Certainly I don’t think it’s ignorant to say so. I don’t disagree that such views can be found everywhere, of course. But just as frequently? Maybe, maybe not - I’ve presented no fact, just a feeling, which I don’t think is an unreasonable one considering.

So basically I have to provide figures and data, but you can say you have an expectation and that isn’t allowed to be challenged? Mate if you think the south has the only cosmopolitan areas then I’d suggest you try actually going up north.
Your expectation was an ignorant one, it’s just as ignorant to start talking about villages with one minority person, do you live in London or the past? It’s narrow minded to say stuff like this, and like I say, as a northerner I find myself reading stuff like this more and more often, to me it just reads as southern people wanting to act like racism isn’t nearly as common where you are, as to ignore the problem and pass the buck to us.

 

[#07]

The more I think about it, the only conclusion I can come to is that Pogba has too much talent, and that it's been too easy for him. We all had 'that' kid at school, who could show up without studying and get top marks, just because some quirk of genetics means their brain works a bit better than everyone elses'.

But typically those kids aren't the ones that go onto found huge companies, make ground-breaking discoveries and so forth. It's the kids that are smart - of course - but have some grit, some drive and something to prove.

I think that's Pogba's problem - and he's definitely not alone in football. There are countless 'wonderkids' with the world at their feet who never quite get the mentality and effort to match their technical prowess.

What he's done in the game is still staggering. He's won multiple trophies, performed on the biggest stage and became one of the most iconic players of a generation. He's an elite footballer.

I think the general frustration with him - not the racists with their agenda or the ABUs with theirs' - is that he should be the best player in the world. But no matter how many ridiculous half-volleyed perfect through balls he hits (the one in added time? woof!) he still makes the same mistakes that cost his team. And he shouldn't be forgiven for that.

And those saying we should build around him instead of the vastly-less talented, less-physically-capable and just less Bruno - we tried that for 3 years. Bruno's the equivalent of the less-innately smart kid who had to grind for everything, and is now the billionaire.

This is where I disagree with you. Pogba should not be the best player in the world. People expecting him to be is where the disappointment comes in.

People are constantly debating how to 'unlock' Pogba. Thinking if only X, Y and Z happens then suddenly he will turn into Roy of the Rovers.

This, I feel, is a fantasy. Partly sold to us by Raiola, partly sold to us by Man Utd, to keep Pogba's value up with potential buyers and marketing partners. If only Pogba was playing with this player, if only he played in this system, if only Mourinho stopped stifling him, if only Ole was as tactically astute as Deschamps. The list goes on and on, and it goes on because those people who have the most investment in Pogba either a) want it to be true or b) want others to believe its true.

To me that sets Pogba up to fail. It holds him to an unrealistic standard. All of a sudden, simply because he's playing alongside Kante, he is never allowed to lose the ball. Which other midfielder is held to that standard? You don't hear people saying Kroos and Modric aren't allowed to lose the ball because they've got Casemiro backing them up.

The issue is people don't want Pogba to be what he is, they want him to be more than he is. So people will go crazy about Pogba being amazing for France, then glitch out when he's subbed against Hungary for having an average game. They want him to be 9/10 every single match and, in the dream world they've constructed, he's only Kante away from being that.

We should just appreciate Pogba for Pogba. He's a very good, frequently more than very good midfielder. Because of that he will have more great games than the opposite. But he's not a machine. He's not going to through games without making any mistakes whatsoever and, like all players, he will have off days. If we judge Pogba by the standards applied to players like Thiago Alcantara or Marco Veratti, its hard to point to another midfielder who is clearly better than he is. That's how we should look at him. Instead of expecting him to be something closer to a comic character.

 

[AshRK]

Some of the criticism Pogba gets is so funny. He was France's best player this tournament while media darling Kante and the boy wonder Mbappe were doing absolute nothing. Hey but we cannot criticize Kante because he smiles like a kid so let us pour more misery on Pogba.

 

[Rozay]

I agree with this after watching it about fifty million times (@Rozay ). But once benzema doesn’t and pogba is not fully aware of his surroundings he has to deal with that and hit it wide himself, not causally try rolling his foot over the ball.

that’s my only opinion on it, forget blame, forget agendas, it’s just what I think of that moment.

I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position to take. I don’t even necessarily disagree with it. It’s just about grading the contravention. I mean, as ill-advised as Benzema’s pass was, he still gave it to his teammate after all. It’s only that, as we know football, we have seen scenarios thousands of times, and of all the possible outcomes - the outcome that actually happened wasn’t some sort of 1% chance outcome - given the specific situation, what happened was not an uncommon or unreasonable one in a competitive game. Of course, it wasn’t 100% chance either, and there are things that Pogba could have done for it to not have happened. One of them being to flick the ball over the oncoming opponents head, for example, which is flash as it sounds, would have likely worked and kept the ball. It’s just not so obvious or easy to do under that pressure that you can be blamed for not doing it - which I think is the case for all of the other options.

With the time that he had, and the opponents he was surrounded with, there was at least a 40%-50% chance of him losing the ball. Still not guaranteed to lose it, but it’s not a ‘mistake’ in the sense that 100 times out of 100 you are expected to keep it there.

Also, I think you are being harsh with this whole ‘roll the ball’ thing too. This isn’t some representation of showing off or casualness. This is professional level football, and then even within that, this is Paul Pogba. It is highly likely that he would back himself to control a ball of that sort of speed by stepping on the ball, without looking at it as some sort of high risk manouvere. To him it’s just controlling a football.

 

[#07]

Some of the criticism Pogba gets is so funny. He was France's best player this tournament while media darling Kante and the boy wonder Mbappe were doing absolute nothing. Hey but we cannot criticize Kante because he smiles like a kid so let us pour more misery on Pogba.

I agree with you. Don't get me wrong, I respect Kante. Yet its noticeable how there aren't any questions being asked about how France lost a two goal lead in 10 minutes, when the best holding midfielder in the world was on the pitch.

I'm not even saying I think Kante was at fault (I don't, I actually blame Deschamps), I'm just pointing out how automatically its assumed it must be Pogba's fault. In any other team people would be asking what the defensive unit was up to.

I'm not even that big of a Pogba lover, in fact I've openly questioned the wisdom of changing our team to get the best out of him if it means getting less out of Bruno. However, I do like to try and look at things without bias. Pogba is, as far as I can see, the only midfielder who's expected to do absolutely everything well all the time. That to me seems strange and it just sets the bar at an unattainable height for him.

I just can't understand the assessment criteria if people can't watch last night's game and see that Pogba was, IMO easily, France's best player. Its as if, to accept this is true, one has to say Pogba made no mistakes, that all his touches were great, that he never lost the ball. He did all those things, as most players do in every game. Its just he did good staff far more regularly and far more effectively than bad. And he did that good stuff more than anyone else in a blue shirt last night.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position to take. I don’t even necessarily disagree with it. It’s just about grading the contravention. I mean, as ill-advised as Benzema’s pass was, he still gave it to his teammate after all. It’s only that, as we know football, we have seen scenarios thousands of times, and of all the possible outcomes - the outcome that actually happened wasn’t some sort of 1% chance outcome - given the specific situation, what happened was not an uncommon or unreasonable one in a competitive game. Of course, it wasn’t 100% chance either, and there are things that Pogba could have done for it to not have happened. One of them being to flick the ball over the oncoming opponents head, for example, which is flash as it sounds, would have likely worked and kept the ball. It’s just not so obvious or easy to do under that pressure that you can be blamed for not doing it - which I think is the case for all of the other options.

With the time that he had, and the opponents he was surrounded with, there was at least a 40%-50% chance of him losing the ball. Still not guaranteed to lose it, but it’s not a ‘mistake’ in the sense that 100 times out of 100 you are expected to keep it there.

Also, I think you are being harsh with this whole ‘roll the ball’ thing too. This isn’t some representation of showing off or casualness. This is professional level football, and then even within that, this is Paul Pogba. It is highly likely that he would back himself to control a ball of that sort of speed by stepping on the ball, without looking at it as some sort of high risk manouvere. To him it’s just controlling a football.

I agree with most of that too.

As for your last paragraph I’ve said previously that’s just Pogba and how he would control or deal with that ball and would back himself, he is world class after all. I fully understand I’ve come across as extremely harsh on him after such a good performance, it just annoyed me he seemed to lose the ball there after such a good game. I’ll stop picking on him now

 

[mitchmouse]

You're talking about arguably Keane's best performance as a United player, and using that as a benchmark for consistent performances you expect from Pogba. Keane himself didn't consistently play at that level. Likewise with the inclusion of the likes of Zidane and Cruyff.

Since Pogba returned from injury in January, I would say it's pretty obvious that he was involved in almost everything, made the entire team better and was a huge catalyst in our increase in performances. His performances against Milan, Liverpool, Spurs, Fulham, Sheffield, Roma & Burnley come to mind straight away, and i'm probably missing more.
He bossed those games, against both "big" and "small" teams - which is exactly what you want from a midfielder.

I don't totally disagree - except with the notion that Keano didn't do that regularly: he most certainly did - but I still don't think we see enough from Pogba for full games, games after game. What I'm saying is that if he stays, he has to come up with big performances much more often; he may have some very good games but there are others where he barely turns up at all. I think we could do better; I also feel he doesn't want to be at United (but of course, that's just my opinion)

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

The way Neville and Keane went after him was quite sad, I know that they talk about what they’re told to but that was uncalled for. Pogba was excellent going forward, opening spaces up with driving runs and beautiful passes and scored a top drawer goal. Yet they choose to highlight his defensive drawbacks. The French defence who were shocking along with golden boys Kante and Mbappe got a pass. They’re going beyond analysing his performances, they dissect his whole character because he likes to colour his hair and dance. Feels a bit personal with Pogba.

 

[Rolaholic]

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Spot on, the venom and bloodlust aimed his way has reached Sterling levels from a few years ago before he called it out.

France had loads of underachievers this time around yet their best player gets most of the stick. His MF partner Kante was getting actual Ballon D'Or shouts before the tournament yet stunk it up but because people like him they ignore it.

Sane for golden boy Mbappe being a primary cause they didn't go through yet he's the sideshow to the trial of PP vol. 20484020

 

[RuudTom83]

Tweet

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Spot on

100%

 

[Giggsforever]

The criticism of him is just lazy though. How many times did Mbappe squander defence splitting passes from Pogba?

Slamming him for one moment where he lost the ball towards the end of the match is just looking for a scapegoat. He was a massive reason why they were 3-1 up in the first place.

Lenglet got dominated in the air for the first, Rabiot didn't close down the cross for the second. Pogba lost the ball in midfield for the third, but Kimpembe also got skinned by a Swiss player probably none of us have ever heard of.

The problem with people like Keane and Viera is that they want Pogba to do everything in midfield. The game has evolved beyond that, the pace and physical demands are too great to be a world class B2B midfielder. Pogba scored a worldie, created so many chances, and put in a really good performance.

People just want to hate him for not being perfect. It's tiring.

He is a great player, played well over all and scored a great goal, but he has aspects of his game he must improve if he wants to play as a cm and not a cam.

B2B is the new meta in midfield. It has been a talkingpoint the last year or two. So that is straight up wrong.

 

[Dec9003]

I feel like if he were a few inches shorter he wouldn’t have the same criticisms. He can’t really defend, he’s not very good at it and it’s not what you pick him for. I think it’s his physical stature that makes people think he should be able to get back and defend at a world class or even just decent level. He’s a quality attacking midfield player that I’m glad we have. If his wage demands aren’t unreasonable I’d like to see us give him a new deal.

 

[thepolice123]

I hadn’t actually rewatched this until someone else mentioned it in the other thread. It’s a poor pass from Benzema and an abysmal piece of defending by Kimpembe. How Pogba is getting the blame for this goal astounds me.

Its really abit of a hospital ball from Benzema. And someone should have given Pogba the shout that someone is coming from behind.

 

[bsCallout]

I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position to take. I don’t even necessarily disagree with it. It’s just about grading the contravention. I mean, as ill-advised as Benzema’s pass was, he still gave it to his teammate after all. It’s only that, as we know football, we have seen scenarios thousands of times, and of all the possible outcomes - the outcome that actually happened wasn’t some sort of 1% chance outcome - given the specific situation, what happened was not an uncommon or unreasonable one in a competitive game. Of course, it wasn’t 100% chance either, and there are things that Pogba could have done for it to not have happened. One of them being to flick the ball over the oncoming opponents head, for example, which is flash as it sounds, would have likely worked and kept the ball. It’s just not so obvious or easy to do under that pressure that you can be blamed for not doing it - which I think is the case for all of the other options.

With the time that he had, and the opponents he was surrounded with, there was at least a 40%-50% chance of him losing the ball. Still not guaranteed to lose it, but it’s not a ‘mistake’ in the sense that 100 times out of 100 you are expected to keep it there.

Also, I think you are being harsh with this whole ‘roll the ball’ thing too. This isn’t some representation of showing off or casualness. This is professional level football, and then even within that, this is Paul Pogba. It is highly likely that he would back himself to control a ball of that sort of speed by stepping on the ball, without looking at it as some sort of high risk manouvere. To him it’s just controlling a football.

Why is his positional discipline being ignored here?

Losing the ball was one thing but he lost the ball and left a huge whole in the midfield. In my opinion he had no reason to be there and should have been responsible enough to hold his position at that stage in the game.

 

[Rozay]

Why is his positional discipline being ignored here?

Losing the ball was one thing but he lost the ball and left a huge whole in the midfield. In my opinion he had no reason to be there and should have been responsible enough to hold his position at that stage in the game.

Because there was no positional indiscipline there

Where exactly is it that he should have been? And more importantly, where is it that you think that he actually was? Seemingly not in midfield?!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Why is his positional discipline being ignored here?

He was offering himself for a pass directly after winning a header to Benzema, Kante if anyone was positionally indisciplined.

I can’t really get my head around Pogba being blamed for that goal.

 

[villain]

I don't totally disagree - except with the notion that Keano didn't do that regularly: he most certainly did - but I still don't think we see enough from Pogba for full games, games after game. What I'm saying is that if he stays, he has to come up with big performances much more often; he may have some very good games but there are others where he barely turns up at all. I think we could do better; I also feel he doesn't want to be at United (but of course, that's just my opinion)

Would be curious who we could get in midfield to be better?
I just think there's at least 7/8 players in our squad who could be better for us, first.