That wasn't in the first 5 pens was it?
Saka 19, Sancho 21, Rashford 23. . . Why were these England’s 3rd, 4th & 5th Penalty Taker?
- Thread starter AFC NimbleThumb
- Start date
Because you really want that one to go in?
That's a fair point.
You too. Have a good night.
Nani was 5, Anderson was 6, Giggs was 7.
I'm surprised not one England taker tried to put it in the middle.
I think that's correct if you're talking about bringing on a specialist penalty taker but totally different when you're not. Neither Rashford or Sancho are specialists or regular takers.
Fair enough. You seem to be right that Transfermarkt seemingly doesn’t include penalty shootout data.
Penalties are not 90 minutes. You don't have to be trusted in match time to be trusted in shoot out time.
Usually the best penalty taker is the final one that goes. The one that you desperately need to score.
Anyways not going to complain
Having lesser penalty takers first means you will miss those penalties more often, which then takes some pressure off the opposition.
Thought as much.
I can understand Rashford and Sancho, both experienced players who scored a decisive pen or two in their careers. I'll never understand what the feck Saka was doing on the pitch ahead of Sancho/Rashford/Foden let alone taking the fifth penalty. You could see on his face that he's going to miss.
Well, Rashford and Sancho scored penalty before so they definitely planned for this. Not sure why they decided to let Saka took it or even planning for Saka to take and the 5th one too. 19 years old took the final penalty before the senior players like Sterling and Grealish against top goalkeeper. Laughable.
Rashford is not a young player anymore.
I’d call both pretty regular takers to be fair…10 scored for Sancho, 15 for Rashford…. without shootouts too, so it’s likely more… to 3 combined misses…. well 5 now.
They are not specialists it's true. But they are definitely amongst the strongest takers in the squad. It's a fallacy to claim they needed to play more minutes. You don't need extra play to take a penalty. They plain missed due to pressure and I'm far from convinced subbing them on earlier would have made a difference to that factor.
If you put your best taker at 5, there's a real risk that you lose before they get to take one.Usually the best penalty taker is the final one that goes. The one that you desperately need to score.
Anyways not going to complain
Well he is. Anyway I don't think people are suggesting that's the issue with him. He shouldn't have been subbed on so late with Sancho solely to take one.
It's silly to consider him as such anymore, he was in the squad under Hodgson.
That's the thing though you can't be sure of that about pressure and I'd say it's more likely you feel less pressure if you're mentally in the game already as opposed to being brought in purely to take a penalty kick, something neither have a great deal of regular club experience in doing so.
You don’t need fresh legs to score a penalty. If we are not talking about a goalkeeper, there is zero point in subbing a player on for pens. They are more about confidence than anything else. Someone who’s been involved and had a good game is way more likely to score.
Bruno takes the penalties at United and don't know who does at Dortmund but it isn't Sancho.
Neither are their club regular takers.
Lesser takers are more likely to score a no pressure penalty. That is why you are wiser to spread out your best takers. Your very best should be last. Your 2nd or 3rd best should be first. You lose your best takers first your screwed when you get to later penalties and the opposition scores
I wasn't confident we'd score one penalty to be honest 1) The obvious being because we've got quite a terrible history with penalty shootouts and 2) Donnarumma looks like a fecking giant between the posts.
My point is a good penalty taker will ALWAYS have the confidence to score one. They don't need playing minutes for it. Even a bad game is unlikely to affect that confidence from 12 yards. Rashford and Sancho were brought in because in the squad they are trusted from 12 yards. Period.
The only reason the likes of Sancho missed was pressure. Not when they got subbed on. Nor their tournament playing time
At the point of choosing the 5 there’s no knowledge of exactly which penalty will have the ultimate importance, what I do know is that if I take the 1st or 2nd penalty my team will shoot again.
You’re attempting to equivocate the pressure of the penalties & it just isn’t there.
Did Maguire faced increased pressure to score as Belotti has missed? Yes but you can also argue he knows they’ve missed one so his miss isn’t critical.
You’re attempting to make this a critique of Maguire when it isn’t. The fact that Maguire handled the Italian miss with a top corner penalty means I want one of Kane or Maguire placed further back.
At 4th & 5th Sancho was taking his thinking Jorginho would score & Saka took his knowing if he misses it’s over - the pressures are not the same.
Maguire did well & took a damn good penalty. On the evidence we got tonight, our 2 best penalty takers went 1st & 2nd, we can allude to what happens in training but we don’t know.
Why does this matter… it’s the same? Experience player shuns it because they don’t feel it….until truly has too, Rio-Vidic-Evra didn’t take too but Stones-Walker-Shaw are getting named by some(no one in particular) that they should of stepped up ahead of Saka… why?
I’d go with confidence over not confident experience any day…
No this one is normal. I remember Portugal losing a PK in Confederation Cup because they put Ronaldo 5th and they lost the shootout by the 4th pen, so Ronaldo didn't even get to shoot his pen.
Always better to put your best player as the first penalty taker. Guaranteed to shoot, higher chance to score and gives a boost ho his team.
It was putting Saka as the 5th pen take that was a ridiculous decision. Also depending on Rashford and Sancho just for the pens when they barely even played the entire tournament. Rashford is a good pen taker in general, but you can't simply keep him as a bench option with barely any play time then depend on him for a crucial pen.
Credit to Donnarumma really. He looked immense from the big screen in the pub. Let alone from 12 yards away.
The mental aspect of going from the bench to such a pressure situation in just a few minutes can't be easy. I'd love it if we got some stats of penalty convertion from players subbed in with less than 5 minutes of game time to go, it seems like they miss more often than not even though they tend to be specialists.
The bigger surprise was seeing Harry Maguire step up with the attacking talent that was available to take a penalty
If Harry Maguire is our second best penalty taker then that's the reason why we lost!
Southgate messed up the penalties no doubt. I don't buy he picked the players himself though. He's said that to take responsibility but there's no way he's made anyone step up that didn't want to do it on his say so.
I agree that Saka shouldn't have been on 5 but I really don't think Saka had any business taking one and for me that's the real problem and why I think Sterling and co should have been speaking up and taking the ball.
I honestly don't buy that at all. Shootout pressure is definite and increases with each take. Someone missing makes it worse.
That is why we have seen people score a penalty in 90 minutes and miss during the shoot out.
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It makes perfect sense to bring on your better penalty takers just for a coming shoot out. I can never fault any manager for that.
The question is : why the hell even put Rashford and Sancho for pens and not early to win the actual fecking game ? Who would have Sancho in the team and just use him as a bloody penalty taker and nothing else in a final ? Who would have Grealish and put him in the last 15 minutes of the game or so ?
How come you have all these talents and manage them this way ? It's ridiculous.
How come you have all these talents and manage them this way ? It's ridiculous.
By all means bring them on but as I say unless they are a specialist at it then you should be giving them time to get a feel for the pressure and game. Even more so if they are young.
For instance big difference in bringing on Bruno Fernandes to take a pen late in a game to bringing on Jadon Sancho.
Would've liked to have seen the more mature heads from the squad consider themselves for the first set of penalties. Where was Sterling and **** favourite Grealish for example ?
I get your point. I just don’t agree on good taker always being a good taker. I still think Southgate overcoached with those subs.
I honestly see no good reason why it should be hard. Mentally you'd be the freshest players on the pitch if you were subbed in just for a shoot out. Frankly the only good reason for you to then go on and miss is succumbing to pressure late on in the first 5 penalties. Which is pretty much what happened to Sancho and Rashford.
Yeah I agree.
I think Southgate will regret how he used the squad in the final especially with the start we made.
He was far too reactivate and think if he'd of moved to 433 sooner and brought on Grealish and Sancho for Mount and Tripper England could well have won it.
Henderson did pretty much nothing and was subbed off. Didn't even fancy a pen. Saka was awful and a bag of nerves.
He got the big calls wrong for me during the game and obviously the pen situation was another disaster.