Final: Italy vs England

[criticalanalysis]

Yeah, and you do that after the ceremony, you have respect till it over, if I saw someone at our martial arts club do that after losing, he'd never represent us again. Go home have a whinge, throw the medal in the box, do whatever but disrespect the tournament like that and they'd be done. This doesn't mean you don't want to win, it means you are petty and spoiled.

Its nothing to do with being happy, you lose, you lost, having a tantrum and being disrespectful doesn't change it. You can't change it, you learn from it, like well Italy did today. You use it to harden you up but you respect the team, person that beat you and those who organized the tournament and put you in such a position.

On the one hand, I can understand where you're coming from but are you really equating taking the medal off their neck as being disrespectful, throwing a tantrum, spoiled and and petty?!

It's an emotional night especially after the disappointment and frustration of what we've seen but come on mate, that is hyperbol.

It's a neither here or there situation for me. Are some players doing it because they want to 'show' how unhappy they are with 2nd place to the cameras? Possibly yes. Does it come from some arrogance, misguided feeling, or other mixed emotions? Possible yes. Is there some clear social/sporting eqtiquette (like kicking the ball off the field for an injured player) about this though? No. So I wouldn't try to reach and pin it as some ugly narrative that it's an act of total contempt.

 

[TrustInOle]

Even in primary school I’d have thrown away a runners up medal. It means feck all. I don’t even see how that’s controversial. You win absolutely nothing for coming second, I’m a very competitive person.

Why should a fan give a toss what medals a player deems an accomplishment? That second place medal is more than any team England has managed in the last 55 years, to some it will never happen to them again! Your just using your opinion with what you deem worthy from a spectator view as something to bash the players with. Weird criticism.

 

[Neo_Mufc]

Just got back from the game. Was kind of a huge peak for myself. Getting into Wembley was really chaotic and I was just glad to get in as it was just manic everywhere. Felt sorry for a lot of stewards with what happened today but I mentioned that in another thread.

We started off great or at least it felt like it at the time. Shaw scored a belter and Declan Rice was on fire. We just seemed to slowly fade through out the entire game.

I thought when Pickford saved Jorginhos goal we might have done it but it wasn't meant to be. I'm too sad to write too much but in terms of a once in a lifetime experience I'm quite sure England will never play a final at Wembley so I'm happy for that experience. Shame a lot of people let themselves down today in terms of the fans.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Oh dear. I can't pretend i wanted to experience the media coverage and parts of the fans in case of England as European Champions, but how things turned out is quite cruel. I feel for those who have waited forever for their team to win, and also for the young players these huge expectations were put on.

 

[littleman]

I read a stat saying England had one shot on target the whole final. ONE. That was Shaw’s goal in min 2.

They tried to park a double decker bus.

 

[Buster15]

Just got back from the game. Was kind of a huge peak for myself. Getting into Wembley was really chaotic and I was just glad to get in as it was just manic everywhere. Felt sorry for a lot of stewards with what happened today but I mentioned that in another thread.

We started off great or at least it felt like it at the time. Shaw scored a belter and Declan Rice was on fire. We just seemed to slowly fade through out the entire game.

I thought when Pickford saved Jorginhos goal we might have done it but it wasn't meant to be. I'm too sad to write too much but in terms of a once in a lifetime experience I'm quite sure England will never play a final at Wembley so I'm happy for that experience. Shame a lot of people let themselves down today in terms of the fans.

That is a very honest assessment. Especially from someone who was at the game.
Whichever way you look at it, England were beaten by a better Italy team.
They gradually took control of the game and well deserved to be champions.

 

[Drifter]

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[Sultan]

Not sure why some posters are dragging Ole into the debate.

Southgate had the pick of the best talents England has produced in many years. I'll mention again what I said prior to the match. Southgate choosing 7 defensive-minded players and Mount who also mostly played in the middle in the starting line-up was a cowardice set-up at Wembley on England's home ground. It's really no surprise why Kane was ineffective in the penalty area and the team could not muster a shot on goal after Shaw scored in the first few minutes.

 

[::sonny::]

Ceferin sad and devasted, something gone wrong

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[predator]

Italy deserved the win really because they were the better team from around 20 min onwards.

Southgates decisions in the tournament have annoyed me becaus but he was a penalty shootout away from winning it. Two penalty kicks going the other way and no one would be questioning his management tonight .

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

 

[Strelok]

Not sure why some posters are dragging Ole into the debate.

Southgate had the pick of the best talents England has produced in many years. I'll mention again what I said prior to the match. Southgate choosing 7 defensive-minded players and Mount who also mostly played in the middle in the starting line-up was a cowardice set-up at Wembley on England's home ground. It's really no surprise why Kane was ineffective in the penalty area and the team could not muster a shot on goal after Shaw scored in the first few minutes.

Bang on.

Actually they're very different. Ole always prefer attacking however sometime his available options did not allow him to. We can clearly see that with his ealier period where we sit back and counter in most big games. Compare to the more recent time where we always try to go toe to toe with whoever we're up against. We never stop attacking and shit ourself at the back whatever the lead.

Ole surely did make a mistake here and there. But he's definitely no coward.

Southgate, just look at his bench and his selection.

 

[Alek M]

Italy have been the most complete team of the tournament. Very attacking minded. Machini outcoached Southgate.

I despise England for their treatment of United players. Sancho and Rashford on the bench? Scholes left winger.

How did all of this turn out???

 

[Real Name]

Due to style of England play it could have been seen coming, the result I mean. Southgate was first of all pragmatic, he set the team with the thought of not conceding first and in the offense they had enough to win games albeit with minimum results if we dont count Ukraine. Thats good and all as it got the results but it was painful to see a team full of attacking talent and flair to play like that. On the one hand I understand Southgate cause defensively England was immense, you could hardly create a chance against them, let alone score but in the attack it was really lacking.

Against Denmark in the overtime England was desperately defending instead of finishing the Danes of. Against Italy it was even worse. Instead of taking advantage of the good start in which Italy looked shaky and out of ideas and England was dangerous every time they were close to their goal they withdrew and played defensively with Kane being sometimes 20, 25 meters of his goal which is a travesty. Italy just took what England offered and dominated the game and in 2nd half it was all them, their goal was coming a mile of.

In overtime England tried to attack but they seemed tired and out of ideas and Italians defended near perfectly (defending of Bonucci and Chiellin should be studied in schools).
Southgate chosed whe wrong tactics and his choice of penalty takers was near disastrous. If you put Rashford and Sancho to take penalties at least put them in a bit earlier so they dont go shoot the pens without being properly warmed up. Not to mention choosing 19 year old Saka who was already overwhelmed by the whole occasion as the 5th taker (in contrast Italy has the most experienced one Jorginho although he missed). You would thought a guy who missed a pen in 1996 which has haunted him to this day would be a bit more smart with the choice. In the end it was a complete opposite.

From his remarks you can see where's he coming from. He said something like if we would have taken more risks in overtime maybe we would have lost. That's a plucky underdog attitude and with those kind of players its a travesty.

It was a near carbon copy of WC 2018 semifinal and whats the best Southgate not only didnt learn anything from it but was even more defensive this time around. In 2018 England was better in the 1st half and if Kane had taken a golden chance he had instead of passing it who knows what would have happen. Someone mentioned England lacks players like Modrić and Jorginho and thats one of the problems too. Mount is the most similar to this type of players and he was wasted in this tournament.

Not to mention not using your team to the full potential. Graelish, Rashford, Sancho, they all should have played more.
I'm so sorry our lads Marcus and Jadon missed their pens cause they'll get a dogs abuse or are getting it already....

 

[Siezard]

You had a centre-forward from nearly relegated Torino (Andrea Belotti), two guys from tiny Sassuolo (Manuel Locatelli and Domenico Berardi), Chelsea's third-choice left-back (Emerson) and Juventus' third-string winger (Federico Bernardeschi). Meanwhile, until two minutes from full-time, the likes of Jadon Sancho and Marcus Rashford watched from the sidelines ... but that's another story and one Gareth Southgate can explain in due course.

 

[Polar]

Hmm.. It was a deserved win for Italy.

England’s defence was brilliant, but the offensive play wasn’t much to write home about, especially the possession play. Reminds me of United’s troublesome possession play.

England is by far a better team than Italy (player by player), but the final is a good example of how much passion, mentality and intensity have to say in football.

Sterling is impressive when he speed up and challenge, but his easy fallings inside the box really starts to annoy me.

Anyway… We can be very proud of Maguire and Shaw. Best CB and LB in Euro 2021

 

[Siezard]

Southgate is just like Ole. Too defensive. Too slow to make changes resulting in more tired legs on the pitch. Lack ideas. Only trust the first 11 and doesn't trust the whole bench.

 

[Marwood]

Italy deserved the win really because they were the better team from around 20 min onwards.

Southgates decisions in the tournament have annoyed me becaus but he was a penalty shootout away from winning it. Two penalty kicks going the other way and no one would be questioning his management tonight .

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

That's the problem with all football analysis though. The result rather than performance dictates opinion.

And in the end performances catch up with you.

 

[Member 101269]

'If I could have picked five or six right-backs I would have done'

GS didnt take charge of the match with changes, he allowed Italy to build pressure.. His penalty choices weren't wise.

 

[Judas]

Still can't quite believe how defensive and cowardly Southgate's approach was. I knew he'd cost us in the end, but it was a truly horrible way for it to happen.

It'll take awhile for me to forget the image of Sancho and Rashford waiting to come on as we're desperately to get the ball out to bring them in the last minute of extra time.

 

[Siezard]

Honestly though, I feel some players didn't run enough. Some players like Kane and Mount were not really pressing the italian defenders. Every press counts because the Italian defenders may pass poorly, resulting in the midfielders losing the battle.

Southgate wasn't being firm enough. Players were sloppy but he didn't scold them. Then, he doesn't make enough substitutions, resulting in tired legs. You are talking 5 fresh legs vs 3 fresh legs.

 

[Pickle85]

Absolutely gutted but well done Italy...to come and do it in our back yard in front of a 90% English supporting Wembley is really impressive. Our best chance of winning a trophy in my lifetime but this group of players will be back. Hopefully not managed by the same manager. On balance we didn't do enough to win...hopefully we learn from it. If you set up to be reactive as opposed to proactive, though, you can't really be annoyed when you lose.

 

[Reddevildans]

Southgate is just like Ole. Too defensive. Too slow to make changes resulting in more tired legs on the pitch. Lack ideas. Only trust the first 11 and doesn't trust the whole bench.

I agree. When watching England is like watching united.

 

[SilentWitness]

The attack absolutely crumbled when it mattered most. Stones got done for the goal and Pickford almost kept them in it. Aside from that Maguire, Shaw, Sterling and Pickford have had fantastic tournaments and should be very proud of themselves.

The best team and the best manager at the tournament won. Southgate seems to be a fantastic manager behind the scenes but tactically he’s still far too naive to win a major tournament. Made a bunch of mistakes last night as Italy were there to be beaten in ET.

 

[Marwood]

I agree. When watching England is like watching united.

Agree very similar but the huge difference is Southgate has the options to play a different way. His bench would transform his team. Ole's bench is nothing like that.

 

[gazbradley]

Absolutely gutted, after sleeping on it still feel Southgate got it wrong but to be fair to him he got a lot right in the tournament so don’t wanna be too harsh on him.
I didn’t understand how he didn’t make a change before their goal, Grealish seemed an obvious choice. Italy were dominating possession and Chiesa was basically walking through us, we just needed someone to get on the ball draw a few free kicks and slow it down abit. Even Calvert-Lewin would’ve been understandable as Kane was getting very little joy from all the long balls we resorted to.
I thought coming into the game Italy looked dead on their feet against Spain and utilising our bench would be a big factor due to the quality in depth we have but to be fair to Mancini he made his subs early and it worked, kept them fresh in key areas whereas we literally waited til there was 2 minutes left of extra time before bringing 2 attackers on which ironically ended up backfiring.
As a Utd fan I’m surprised about the lack of game time Rashford has had especially with Shaw being our first choice left back, it’s one of our most affective and proven attacking options and I never felt Shaw really clicked with Sterling. Again surprised he didn’t at least try it in extra time especially when it was clear the Saka substitution hadn’t worked.
End of the day it’s a cup competition and its small margins, overall it’s been a good tournament for us and getting to final is an achievement regardless, hopefully this young squad learn from it and come back stronger

 

[Tony247]

- An outstanding manager carried a bunch of good players and couple of top class players all the way to the trophy.
- An outstanding team with many top class players and couple of average players carried an average manager all the way to the final.

- One with limited attacking talent taught the team how to attack and play some entertaining football.
- One with abundant attacking talent made his team to park the bus with 7-8 defensive players.

 

[Ixion]

The right team won. England did absolutely nothing after the goal which was just Italy being caught cold (great from Shaw though of course). Home advantage and did nothing with it, just sneaked a goal straight away and hoped they could hold on for the rest of the game.

 

[Buchan]

It’s a very hard match to call, this. The two best teams of the tournament, IMO, and that’s great in itself to see as we rarely get treated to that in a final of a knockout competition.

Goalkeeper: Italy
Defence: England (marginally)
Midfield: Italy
Attack: England
Managers: Italy
Venue: England

Two contrasting styles, too, which further adds to the intrigue. I can see Southgate picking a very conservative XI again and hope to go 1-0 up before seeing out the game from there. Italy should be able to control the middle third but I don’t see them creating as many chances against England as they did against other teams previous.

It’s a 50/50 call, for me, but fully expect a low-scoring affair. I’ll go 1-1 AET and then onto the ‘lottery’ of penalties, just to keep in tune with the drama of the tournament to date…

Unfortunately for England, if Southgate’s gameplan was so easy to read by posters on a football forum, a manager with the pedigree of Mancini was always going to do a number on him.

Laughable stuff from Southgate all told. He got what he deserved.

 

[RoyH1]

England cannot afford to waste this generation of players. A more ambitious and creative manager should be brought in to help them with that extra step. Qatar is a year and a half away.

 

[shahzy]

Italy deserved the win really because they were the better team from around 20 min onwards.

Southgates decisions in the tournament have annoyed me becaus but he was a penalty shootout away from winning it. Two penalty kicks going the other way and no one would be questioning his management tonight .

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Im not sure about that. Plenty have been questioning it throughout the whole tournament on here even when results were going England's way. He is way too defensive of a coach and so slow and reacts too late. If England had a proper manager on the level of Mancini or Enrique (Two coaches that are far above the level of international football), i think they win the games they played this tournament, except by more goals whilst maybe conceeding a goal or two more.

You just cant justify playing Saka and Mount over the likes of Sancho (30 odd assist and goals this last season), Grealish (the best dribbler in the squad) for the ENTIRE tournament. This wasnt a one game thing. He did it the whole tournament. All because Saka provides defensive cover however provides far less going forwards than either of the two mentioned. Mount, same thing really.

IMO England got to the final IN SPITE of having Southgate as manager. Not because of him.

 

[shahzy]

England cannot afford to waste this generation of players. A more ambitious and creative manager should be brought in to help them with that extra step. Qatar is a year and a half away.

Yep. Its going to be interesting to see what the FA do. Kane will be 28=29 at that point i think. That's his last tournament as one of the top strikers in the world and the kids will be between 20-25 years and in their prime. Imagine Luis Enrique with the squad England had. He was making average spanish players (By spain standards) play that good only for the clown Morata to screw it all up

 

[Yik]

Gutted with the loss but I think if this games gets played 10 times, Italy win it in normal time 9 times out of 10. Dont' think Donnarumma was troubled at all. Kane never got into a shooting opportunity. England didn't even have a half decent opportunity on set pieces like they normally do.

Penalties was about the only way England could have won this match.

 

[Strelok]

England is by far a better team than Italy (player by player), but the final is a good example of how much passion, mentality and intensity have to say in football.

This is utterly unfair to the English players imo. They gave their all, it's their manager who failed them. Your talking like they're much worse than the Italian players in term of passion, mentality and much lazier is completely bollocks.

 

[Fortitude]

England cannot afford to waste this generation of players. A more ambitious and creative manager should be brought in to help them with that extra step. Qatar is a year and a half away.

You'd hope Southgate comes out and says he's gone as far as he can and... 'nobly' hands the baton over whilst getting whatever job the FA hand him.

But then, they'd probably screw the next appointment and not get a progressive manager.

 

[predator]

Im not sure about that. Plenty have been questioning it throughout the whole tournament on here even when results were going England's way. He is way too defensive of a coach and so slow and reacts too late. If England had a proper manager on the level of Mancini or Enrique (Two coaches that are far above the level of international football), i think they win the games they played this tournament, except by more goals whilst maybe conceeding a goal or two more.

You just cant justify playing Saka and Mount over the likes of Sancho (30 odd assist and goals this last season), Grealish (the best dribbler in the squad) for the ENTIRE tournament. This wasnt a one game thing. He did it the whole tournament. All because Saka provides defensive cover however provides far less going forwards than either of the two mentioned. Mount, same thing really.

IMO England got to the final IN SPITE of having Southgate as manager. Not because of him.

I agree in principle with everything you said. Seeing Saka get so much game time over Rashford and sancho has annoyed me throughout the tournament. I agree aswell that he is too defensive minded especially when you look at the amount of attacking talent he has at his disposal.

We will never know what couldve happened if he used sancho, grealish, rashford more in this euros for the better or worse.

But one thing is certain - he got to penalties in a final with his way of doing things.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Bang on.

Actually they're very different. Ole always prefer attacking however sometime his available options did not allow him to. We can clearly see that with his ealier period where we sit back and counter in most big games. Compare to the more recent time where we always try to go toe to toe with whoever we're up against. We never stop attacking and shit ourself at the back whatever the lead.

Ole surely did make a mistake here and there. But he's definitely no coward.

Southgate, just look at his bench and his selection.

No white text?

Toe to toe with whoever

You had a centre-forward from nearly relegated Torino (Andrea Belotti), two guys from tiny Sassuolo (Manuel Locatelli and Domenico Berardi), Chelsea's third-choice left-back (Emerson) and Juventus' third-string winger (Federico Bernardeschi). Meanwhile, until two minutes from full-time, the likes of Jadon Sancho and Marcus Rashford watched from the sidelines ... but that's another story and one Gareth Southgate can explain in due course.

I’m loving these links for names posts.

I’m due relegation, so promote this man. Makes stat finding so much easier.

 

[Strelok]

No white text?

Toe to toe with whoever

Seriously you didn't watch United at all last season did you?

 

[The Purley King]

You had a centre-forward from nearly relegated Torino (Andrea Belotti), two guys from tiny Sassuolo (Manuel Locatelli and Domenico Berardi), Chelsea's third-choice left-back (Emerson) and Juventus' third-string winger (Federico Bernardeschi). Meanwhile, until two minutes from full-time, the likes of Jadon Sancho and Marcus Rashford watched from the sidelines ... but that's another story and one Gareth Southgate can explain in due course.

It is genuinely baffling.
What the holy feck was he thinking…….

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Seriously you didn't watch United at all last season did you?

Apparently not if we went ‘toe to toe’ with every side? In every game? & we never stop attacking.

 

[Strelok]

Apparently not if we went ‘toe to toe’ with every side? In every game? & we never stop attacking.

Of course not every game. For example the game against Leizpig where he set up for a draw and surely he made a big mistake. But apart from that can you give me a match where we sit back and shit ourself the way Southgate did? even against the big teams?

And we definitely do not stop attacking after we have a lead, regardless of how many the lead is. Give me a few matches where we did?

Saying Ole and Southgate is negatively similar because of one or two match in the 60 matches we play a season is completely ignorant and stupid. But the agenda huh?

I really hate negative and coward football, no way I've supported Ole if he did what Southgate did.