Lionel Messi

[Pocho]

Was he injured during the Copa final? He was very, very, very bad.

He was injured the last two games.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It is not factually correct, because Messi himself has done it before, both in La Liga and in the CL, where he has won the pichichi, the most assists, most MOTM's, highest average rating, most dribbles and key passes etc.

It is factually correct in regard to international tournaments I think, which is I’m sure what he was saying when he referenced ‘major tournaments’. But yes, Messi has also done it in La Liga and the Champions League, and he’s the only player around now who is capable of doing something like that.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It is factually correct in regard to international tournaments I think, which is I’m sure what he was saying when he referenced ‘major tournaments’. But yes, Messi has also done it in La Liga and the Champions League, and he’s the only player around now who is capable of doing something like that.

Maybe Neymar

 

[Gehrman]

And there are many mediocre players who are excelling in the euros. Case in point Schick. Lukaku is hardly a world beater and he has 4 goals, because performing in the euros is easier than it is in Copa America.

I know they've been amazing. Messi just became the first man in history to end up top scorer, top assister، and player of the tournament of a major tournament. Amazing is an understatement. The fact that he did so in the copa makes it even more remarkable.

He had a good copa, but it was not a iconic international performance it will mostly be celebrated because he finally won a international trophy.

 

[VanKenny]

It is factually correct in regard to international tournaments I think, which is I’m sure what he was saying when he referenced ‘major tournaments’. But yes, Messi has also done it in La Liga and the Champions League, and he’s the only player around now who is capable of doing something like that.

Yeah, either way that kind of feat can only be done by Messi. Nobody else has ever come close. Too lazy to do research on Pele right now but im almost sure he didnt

 

[tomaldinho1]

It totally is a fair comparison. If Messi played in the Euros it would be exactly the same. Even in the World Cup in 2014 when he won the Golden Ball he had;

the third most goals,
the most key passes,
the most chances created,
the most though balls,
the most successful dribbles,
the most outside the box goals,
the most free kick goals,
the most points won,
the most MOTM awards and
the best average rating

He’s been doing this for years in every competition. That’s why he’s by far the best player of this generation IMO.

Out of interest, why are you using a WC from 7 years ago & not 2018?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Not sure if this is factually correct, but that's surely sounds abit over the top to me. No doubt he has been the best player this year in any major tournament, but its nothing like near the best I've seen from him or from other top class performances like Maradona 86, Platini 84, Baggio 90 or even L.Ronaldo 98 etc., as I get from the tone of your statement. He has a rather poor final game (injuries?) and an average group game, to call it beyond amazing.. But overall, in general, he was amazing.

Saying that he's the first man in history to lead a major tournament in scoring, assists, as well as winning player of the tournament is, in fact, factual.

The rest of the subjective bit (your personal opinion regarding where this tournament ranks all time) is just that....the subjective of someone who has Ronaldo in his username.

 

[VanKenny]

Saying that he's the first man in history to lead a major tournament in scoring, assists, as well as winning player of the tournament is, in fact, factual.

The rest of the subjective bit (your personal opinion regarding where this tournament ranks all time) is just that....the subjective of someone who has Ronaldo in his username.

Messi has already done it on the CL on 3 ocassions though, plus a bunch of other times in la liga that i didnt bother to check. Unless you meant national team competition which would be correct if so.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Messi has already done it on the CL on 3 ocassions though, plus a bunch of other times in la liga that i didnt bother to check. Unless you meant national team competition which would be correct if so.

It was in reference to international tournaments because that's what the poster who quoted me was referencing. But as you said, Messi has done that plenty of times on the domestic level.
He's the most complete offensive force in football.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Yeah, either way that kind of feat can only be done by Messi. Nobody else has ever come close. Too lazy to do research on Pele right now but im almost sure he didnt

Maradona has come close in 86, he had the most assists, was part of the winning team and won the golden ball. Second in goals though to Gary Lineker.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Out of interest, why are you using a WC from 7 years ago & not 2018?

Because I happen to know the basic stats from that tournament, there was a graphic that I put up a link to in another thread which referenced it. Also, that was another tournament where Messi won the Golden Ball. Don’t know the stats for 2018.

But worth pointing out that in 2018-19 in La Liga, according to Opta, these were the the statistical leaders:

Goals - Messi
Assists - Messi
Total Shots - Messi
Shots on Target - Messi
Chances Created - Messi
Open play chances created - Messi
Big Chances Created - Messi
Fouls Won - Messi
Free Kick Goals - Messi
Goals outside the box - Messi
Braces - Messi
Hat-tricks - Messi
Woodwork hit - Messi
Passes ending in final third - Messi

He finished second in take ons completed that season. Poor showing

Now if we take another league at random, I don’t know, let’s say the Italian league in 2018-19, here’s the equivalent leaders:

Goals - Quagliarella
Assists - Mertens
Total Shots - Ronaldo
Shots on Target - Ronaldo
Chances Created - Gomez
Open Play Chances Created - Suso
Big chances created - Gomez
Take Ons Conpleted - Boga
Fouls Won - Belotti
Goals outside the box - Mertens
Direct free kick goals - Milik
Braces - Quagliarella
Hat-tricks - Ilicic
Woodwork hit - Immobile
Passes ending in final third - Gomez

You can take literally any other league and it’s exactly the same, the statistical leaders in these categories will be 8/9/10 different players. Only La Liga is different.

The point is that what happened statistically in the Copa America is nothing new, Messi’s been doing this for years.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Because I happen to know the basic stats from that tournament, there was a graphic that I put up a link to in another thread which referenced it. Also, that was another tournament where Messi won the Golden Ball. Don’t know the stats for 2018.

But worth pointing out that in 2018-19 in La Liga, according to Opta, these were the the statistical leaders:

Goals - Messi
Assists - Messi
Total Shots - Messi
Shots on Target - Messi
Chances Created - Messi
Open play chances created - Messi
Big Chances Created - Messi
Fouls Won - Messi
Free Kick Goals - Messi
Goals outside the box - Messi
Braces - Messi
Hat-tricks - Messi
Woodwork hit - Messi
Passes ending in final third - Messi

He finished second in take ons completed that season. Poor showing

Now if we take another league at random, I don’t know, let’s say the Italian league in 2018-19, here’s the equivalent leaders:

Goals - Quagliarella
Assists - Mertens
Total Shots - Ronaldo
Shots on Target - Ronaldo
Chances Created - Gomez
Open Play Chances Created - Suso
Big chances created - Gomez
Take Ons Conpleted - Boga
Fouls Won - Belotti
Goals outside the box - Mertens
Direct free kick goals - Milik
Braces - Quagliarella
Hat-tricks - Ilicic
Woodwork hit - Immobile
Passes ending in final third - Gomez

You can take literally any other league and it’s exactly the same, the statistical leaders in these categories will be 8/9/10 different players. Only La Liga is different.

The point is that what happened statistically in the Copa America is nothing new, Messi’s been doing this for years.

What are the stats from the '18 WC though? Seems more relevant to use that if you are choosing to select the '14 WC as well.

 

[NasirTimothy]

What are the stats from the '18 WC though? Seems more relevant to use that if you are choosing to select the '14 WC as well.

No idea, you’re welcome to look them up

 

[tomaldinho1]

No idea, you’re welcome to look them up

Sure thing, what source you use for yours?

 

[Pocho]

Because I happen to know the basic stats from that tournament, there was a graphic that I put up a link to in another thread which referenced it. Also, that was another tournament where Messi won the Golden Ball. Don’t know the stats for 2018.

But worth pointing out that in 2018-19 in La Liga, according to Opta, these were the the statistical leaders:

Goals - Messi
Assists - Messi
Total Shots - Messi
Shots on Target - Messi
Chances Created - Messi
Open play chances created - Messi
Big Chances Created - Messi
Fouls Won - Messi
Free Kick Goals - Messi
Goals outside the box - Messi
Braces - Messi
Hat-tricks - Messi
Woodwork hit - Messi
Passes ending in final third - Messi

He finished second in take ons completed that season. Poor showing

Now if we take another league at random, I don’t know, let’s say the Italian league in 2018-19, here’s the equivalent leaders:

Goals - Quagliarella
Assists - Mertens
Total Shots - Ronaldo
Shots on Target - Ronaldo
Chances Created - Gomez
Open Play Chances Created - Suso
Big chances created - Gomez
Take Ons Conpleted - Boga
Fouls Won - Belotti
Goals outside the box - Mertens
Direct free kick goals - Milik
Braces - Quagliarella
Hat-tricks - Ilicic
Woodwork hit - Immobile
Passes ending in final third - Gomez

You can take literally any other league and it’s exactly the same, the statistical leaders in these categories will be 8/9/10 different players. Only La Liga is different.

The point is that what happened statistically in the Copa America is nothing new, Messi’s been doing this for years.

Naah, not enough. Do you have stats from WC 2006? Not convinced yet

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Peak Lionel Messi scored 73 goals in a season. 73! And 91 goals in a calendar year.

Will be ever see a high point like that?

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Peak Lionel Messi scored 73 goals in a season. 73! And 91 goals in a calendar year.

Will be ever see a high point like that?

29 assists that season as well. To put that in perspective, that's more than Paul Pogba has in his whole 6 seasons in the Premier League.

Messi directly contributed to a goal every 51 minutes that season.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

29 assists that season as well. To put that in perspective, that's more than Paul Pogba has in his whole 6 seasons in the Premier League.

Messi directly contributed to a goal every 51 minutes that season.

That's 102 goal contributions in a season. Madness

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

29 assists that season as well. To put that in perspective, that's more than Paul Pogba has in his whole 6 seasons in the Premier League.

Messi directly contributed to a goal every 51 minutes that season.

That was his offensive peak. 73 goals and 29 assists is preposterously good.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Saying that he's the first man in history to lead a major tournament in scoring, assists, as well as winning player of the tournament is, in fact, factual.

The rest of the subjective bit (your personal opinion regarding where this tournament ranks all time) is just that....the subjective of someone who has Ronaldo in his username.

Even if it’s nearly factually correct its still an well over the top statement anyways, at any levels, regardless of my stances. He did well in not more than 5 games, against mostly rather decent/poor/average opponents afterall. Copa is major but it’s nothing like WC or even Euro, same way it’s like an Italian cup or Copa Del Rey but not exactly a PL or CL. He is great but we need to have some perspective there.

Most of his amazing stats and great performances comes from within the 2 games against Bolivia and Ecuador (3 goals 3 assists). Not exactly beyond amazing. He had good and decent games against Chile, Uruguay and Columbus too. But rather average and poor games against Paraguay and Brazil. Overall it has been a great tournament for him but nowhere near as good as you’ve made out to be, the quality of opponents where he has shined against isn’t really that great to be honest. But he still have a great tournament in general.

 

[Mr Smith]

What are the stats from the '18 WC though? Seems more relevant to use that if you are choosing to select the '14 WC as well.

Stop fishing. We know Messi had a bad WC 2018; all of Argentina did. One poor tournament doesn't negate 12 years of outrageously consistent greatness.

Incedentally, Messi is also tops all attacking stats in the 2015 and 2016 Cops America's.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Naah, not enough. Do you have stats from WC 2006? Not convinced yet

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Even if it’s nearly factually correct its still an well over the top statement anyways, at any levels, regardless of my stances. He did well in not more than 5 games, against mostly rather decent/poor/average opponents afterall. Copa is major but it’s nothing like WC or even Euro, same way it’s like an Italian cup or Copa Del Rey but not exactly a PL or CL. He is great but we need to have some perspective there.

Most of his amazing stats and great performances comes from within the 2 games against Bolivia and Ecuador (3 goals 3 assists). Not exactly beyond amazing. He had good and decent games against Chile, Uruguay and Columbus too. But rather average and poor games against Paraguay and Brazil. Overall it has been a great tournament for him but nowhere near as good as you’ve made out to be, the quality of opponents where he has shined against isn’t really that great to be honest. But he still have a great tournament in general.

That's the end of the discussion because that's the only factual statement in there. Anything after that is your subjective opinion asa Ronaldo fan, as I pointed out. You're going in circles repeating yourself at this point.

 

[RedRonaldo]

That's the end of the discussion because that's the only factual statement in there. Anything after that is your subjective opinion asa Ronaldo fan, as I pointed out. You're going in circles repeating yourself at this point.

You did claim this is beyond amazing, which isn’t. Nothing to do with my opinion actually. Copa is just, Copa afterall, regardless of who you or me support. You just keep bringing this up to hide your own embarrassment from making overstatement.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Iniesta and Xavi aren't any good either, they played only for Barcelona, disgusting players, both of them.

Good point. Ronaldo fans are happy to call Xavi and Iniesta the greatest midfielders when both stayed in their comfort zone. But Messi isnt the greatest because he has not left Barcelona . Anybody saying Messi was helped by Xavi and Iniesta, calling them the greatest midfielders should be hit with this point

 

[Zehner]

You did claim this is beyond amazing, which isn’t. Nothing to do with my opinion actually. Copa is just, Copa afterall, regardless of who you or me support. You just keep bringing this up to hide your own embarrassment from making overstatement.

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical that you now point out the worse competitiom when a) you usually don't do that in the co text of Ronaldo's goal record and b) Portugal's route to the final wasn't really more difficult than Argentina's. Not that I want to discuss this because the outcome is irrelevant to my opinion anyway but to me this comes across as serious double standards.

In the end, Messi's performances for Argentina have impressed me much more than Cristiano's just for the reason that he impacts the game in so many ways even if he doesn't score. Not because x won y or a won b or had the easier route while doing do. You never standardize context anyway.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You did claim this is beyond amazing, which isn’t. Nothing to do with my opinion actually. Copa is just, Copa afterall, regardless of who you or me support. You just keep bringing this up to hide your own embarrassment from making overstatement.

It is, though, because he's the first man in history to do so. The fact that he did it in the Copa makes it even more incredible, because the Copa is the Copa. The fact that you think it's an overstatement is your subjective opinion, as I said prior.

Keep going if you'd like. Repeating yourself as infinitum isn't going to lend any credence to an opinion of a Ronaldo fanboy about the performance of Messi.

 

[RedRonaldo]

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical that you now point out the worse competitiom when a) you usually don't do that in the co text of Ronaldo's goal record and b) Portugal's route to the final wasn't really more difficult than Argentina's. Not that I want to discuss this because the outcome is irrelevant to my opinion anyway but to me this comes across as serious double standards.

In the end, Messi's performances for Argentina have impressed me much more than Cristiano's just for the reason that he impacts the game in so many ways even if he doesn't score. Not because x won y or a won b or had the easier route while doing do. You never standardize context anyway.

I won’t go too deep into this, as out of respect I don’t want too talk much about Ronaldo here, but I am merely looking from the perspective of different competitions merits differently. You can compare stats from Euro to Euro, or Copa to Copa, but mixing up Copa to Euro is like mixing French league to PL to me, which isn’t equal. I have always been very consistence about this here, and of course, similar stats in better competition would be rated higher by me. (Ie 20 goals in PL >>> 20 goals in French league)

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I won’t go too deep into this, as out of respect I don’t want too talk much about Ronaldo here, but I am merely looking from the perspective of different competitions merits differently. You can compare stats from Euro to Euro, or Copa to Copa, but mixing up Copa to Euro is like mixing French league to PL to me, which isn’t equal. I have always been very consistence about this here, and of course, similar stats in better competition would be rated higher by me. (Ie 20 goals in PL >>> 20 goals in French league)

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical that you now point out the worse competitiom when a) you usually don't do that in the co text of Ronaldo's goal record and b) Portugal's route to the final wasn't really more difficult than Argentina's. Not that I want to discuss this because the outcome is irrelevant to my opinion anyway but to me this comes across as serious double standards.

In the end, Messi's performances for Argentina have impressed me much more than Cristiano's just for the reason that he impacts the game in so many ways even if he doesn't score. Not because x won y or a won b or had the easier route while doing do. You never standardize context anyway.

Iceland
Hugary
Austria
Poland
Croatia
Wales

Such an incredible competition the euros

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Peak Lionel Messi scored 73 goals in a season. 73! And 91 goals in a calendar year.

Will be ever see a high point like that?

Which season was that?

Was that when he played at the striker? Or as a "false 9" as it's described.

 

[RedRonaldo]

It is, though, because he's the first man in history to do so. The fact that he did it in the Copa makes it even more incredible, because the Copa is the Copa. The fact that you think it's an overstatement is your subjective opinion, as I said prior.

Keep going if you'd like. Repeating yourself as infinitum isn't going to lend any credence to an opinion of a Ronaldo fanboy about the performance of Messi.

It’s isn’t just subjective though.

Let’s look at the objective facts: in terms of FIFA ranking of top 10 countries participate in Euro and Copa:

Copa

Brazil - ranked 3rd
Argentina - ranked 8th
Uruguay - ranked 9th
Columbia - ranked 15th
Chile - ranked 19th
Peru - ranked 27th
Venezuela - ranked 30th
Paraguay - ranked 35th
Ecuador - ranked 53rd
Bolivia - ranked 81st

Euro

Belgium - ranked 1st
France - ranked 2nd
England - ranked 4th
Portugal - ranked 5th
Spain - ranked 6th
Italy - ranked 7th
Denmark - ranked 10th
Germany - ranked 12th
Swizz - ranked 13th
Croatia - ranked 14th

As a matter of fact, Messi was great against Ecuador (ranked 53rd) and Bolivia (ranked 81st) which makes his Copa stats looks dominating, but you can’t really call that “beyond amazing” even if you are a totally biased person, which you clearly are.

 

[Pocho]

It’s isn’t just subjective though.

Let’s look at the objective facts: in terms of FIFA ranking of top 10 countries participate in Euro and Copa:

Copa

Brazil - ranked 3rd
Argentina - ranked 8th
Uruguay - ranked 9th
Columbia - ranked 15th
Chile - ranked 19th
Peru - ranked 27th
Venezuela - ranked 30th
Paraguay - ranked 35th
Ecuador - ranked 53rd
Bolivia - ranked 81st

Euro

Belgium - ranked 1st
France - ranked 2nd
England - ranked 4th
Portugal - ranked 5th
Spain - ranked 6th
Italy - ranked 7th
Denmark - ranked 10th
Germany - ranked 12th
Swizz - ranked 13th
Croatia - ranked 14th

As a matter of fact, Messi was great against Ecuador (ranked 53rd) and Bolivia (ranked 81st) which makes his Copa stats looks dominating, but you can’t really call that “beyond amazing” even if you are a totally biased person, which you clearly are.

He was MOTM against Uruguay and was pretty good, injured, against Colombia.

 

[GuyfromAustria]

Which season was that?

Was that when he played at the striker? Or as a "false 9" as it's described.

73 goals: 2011-12 season (Barcelona only)
91 goals: 2012 calendar year for club and country (79 Barcelona, 12 Argentina)

here are his heat maps for every La Liga-season from 2004 to 2019:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[RedRonaldo]

Sorry if you rate the French league higher, no offence.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

It’s isn’t just subjective though.

Let’s look at the objective facts: in terms of FIFA ranking of top 10 countries participate in Euro and Copa:

Copa

Brazil - ranked 3rd
Argentina - ranked 8th
Uruguay - ranked 9th
Columbia - ranked 15th
Chile - ranked 19th
Peru - ranked 27th
Venezuela - ranked 30th
Paraguay - ranked 35th
Ecuador - ranked 53rd
Bolivia - ranked 81st

Euro

Belgium - ranked 1st
France - ranked 2nd
England - ranked 4th
Portugal - ranked 5th
Spain - ranked 6th
Italy - ranked 7th
Denmark - ranked 10th
Germany - ranked 12th
Swizz - ranked 13th
Croatia - ranked 14th

As a matter of fact, Messi was great against Ecuador (ranked 53rd) and Bolivia (ranked 81st) which makes his Copa stats looks dominating, but you can’t really call that “beyond amazing” even if you are a totally biased person, which you clearly are.

Again, repeating yourself as infinitum doesn't make you any less incorrect.

You stated that it isn't factual that Messi became the first man in history to lead a major international tournament in goals, assists, and win player of the tournament. You were corrected.

You then decided to resort to repeatedly hammer home the point that in your opinion, Messi's performance wasn't that impressive and that the rest of the world is wrong to think so. We already established that you're free to continue saying it but that it's just the subjective opinion of someone with Ronaldo in his username. At no point did anyone ask for your subjective opinion (I certainly didn't) and I don't put much stock into it.

You're free to feel whichever way you feel regarding how impressive or ordinary this Messi masterclass was, while he racks up award after award and the rest of the world marvels.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Iceland
Hugary
Austria
Poland
Croatia
Wales

Such an incredible competition the euros

Utter dross, isn't it?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It’s isn’t just subjective though.

Let’s look at the objective facts: in terms of FIFA ranking of top 10 countries participate in Euro and Copa:

Copa

Brazil - ranked 3rd
Argentina - ranked 8th
Uruguay - ranked 9th
Columbia - ranked 15th
Chile - ranked 19th
Peru - ranked 27th
Venezuela - ranked 30th
Paraguay - ranked 35th
Ecuador - ranked 53rd
Bolivia - ranked 81st

Euro

Belgium - ranked 1st
France - ranked 2nd
England - ranked 4th
Portugal - ranked 5th
Spain - ranked 6th
Italy - ranked 7th
Denmark - ranked 10th
Germany - ranked 12th
Swizz - ranked 13th
Croatia - ranked 14th

As a matter of fact, Messi was great against Ecuador (ranked 53rd) and Bolivia (ranked 81st) which makes his Copa stats looks dominating, but you can’t really call that “beyond amazing” even if you are a totally biased person, which you clearly are.

Except a team that has an easy run to the final such as England in 2021 and Portugal in 2016 should have players who are similarly dominant statistically in those tournaments but they don't. I mean, leading in all of them - through passess, key passes, goals, assists etc - is incredible really.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Utter dross, isn't it?

I'm sure one of their players lead in all the key statistics.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I'm sure one of their players lead in all the key statistics.