Why did Ole abandon his vision?

[lex talionis]

We can’t know why this has gone off the rails under Ole, but since we’re here to speculate my speculation is that Old Trafford is a cauldron of pressure and that Ole has cracked under the pressure.

Sticking with McFred is a clear sign to me that he’s terrified of losing to lesser sides like Villa. If you don’t concede you can’t lose if you’re not losing Kate in the game there’s always a chance a moment if magic will dig out the win. But deflections do happen and set piece goals do happen. We should be playing on the front foot, but that means taking risks. For reasons we can all understand, Ole is unable to risk defeat by going for victory. It’s no surprise we drop stupid points to clubs like Southampton and Villa.

Other than Ferguson, who since Busby has been successful managing Manchester United? No one, actually.

I’m not sure what the path forward is, but it’s increasingly clear we need to bring in a manager who can handle the cauldron of pressure at Old Trafford. I’m not sure such a human being exists.

 

[Ekeke]

You need to press from the front and Fred doesnt have the talent to play there. He's the only one whos good at pressing and he's in the position where you want someone to sit and snuff out danger

 

[WR10]

His creatine kinase numbers kept telling him no. The high-intensity 'run more than them' tactic is just a lazy coaching tactic to make up for lack of strategy/experience. Eventually, your physio department lets you know we got no more gas in the legs. At that point, Ole looks like an idiot with his pants around his ankles. That has usually been towards the end of the season (hint: trophy season). He gets exposed for lack of strategy by the end of the season.

 

[edcunited1878]

We can’t know why this has gone off the rails under Ole, but since we’re here to speculate my speculation is that Old Trafford is a cauldron of pressure and that Ole has cracked under the pressure.

Sticking with McFred is a clear sign to me that he’s terrified of losing to lesser sides like Villa. If you don’t concede you can’t lose if you’re not losing Kate in the game there’s always a chance a moment if magic will dig out the win. But deflections do happen and set piece goals do happen. We should be playing on the front foot, but that means taking risks. For reasons we can all understand, Ole is unable to risk defeat by going for victory. It’s no surprise we drop stupid points to clubs like Southampton and Villa.

Other than Ferguson, who since Busby has been successful managing Manchester United? No one, actually.

I’m not sure what the path forward is, but it’s increasingly clear we need to bring in a manager who can handle the cauldron of pressure at Old Trafford. I’m not sure such a human being exists.

Aren't you contradicting yourself though? Southampton's goal was from a deflected shot, but Southampton got possession via a foul on Bruno which was not called. And Southampton got another good chance after Maguire played the opponent in with a horrible pass near goal. United played well and were unfortunate not to get the 3 points due not finishing their chances. Against Villa, United and Villa were pretty open and went up and down the pitch.

Whenever United have gone down by a goal, do they not comeback to at least equalize more times than not? They have accumulated the most points from losing positions since the beginning of last season. How is that not risking anything?

We all point to the manager saying, oh, can they handle the pressure? Well we need to always look at players too and see if they can handle the pressure. I don't think AWB or McTominay can handle the pressure and be starters for United, not even speaking about their average technical ability or passing abilities.

 

[Adnan]

.

You need to press from the front and Fred doesnt have the talent to play there. He's the only one whos good at pressing and he's in the position where you want someone to sit and snuff out danger

Pressing from the front is a pointless waste of energy if the rest of the team doesn't push up to close the space. If Fred is active in the press then his midfield team mate tucks in go provide the defensive balance by tucking in.

 

[ExoduS]

Pressing requires tremendous physical shape/stamina, high level of athleticism and with athleticism I mean - physical agility/quickness + football IQ. Basically your body needs to move in the right direction before your brain can even think where to go. Instinct I guess. Everyone wants to do that. This is not something new. Tactics to take the ball from the opponent as soon as they get it is old and it has been repeated time to time but you need right players. We don't have them. Fred's football IQ is average, Matic's IQ is high but he is slow, McT is inconsistent and does not have high football IQ, Pogba should be able to do it, but he is not interested as it seems he want to be more offensive.

So yeah, wishful thinking by Ole, but high press is haaaaaaard. O yeah, even teams that can do it, hope they can grab 2-3 goal lead so they can relax and play low press with counter attacks.

 

[Adnan]

Pressing requires tremendous physical shape/stamina, high level of athleticism and with athleticism I mean - physical agility/quickness + football IQ. Basically your body needs to move in the right direction before your brain can even think where to go. Instinct I guess. Everyone wants to do that. This is not something new. Tactics to take the ball from the opponent as soon as they get it is old and it has been repeated time to time but you need right players. We don't have them. Fred's football IQ is average, Matic's IQ is high but he is slow, McT is inconsistent and does not have high football IQ, Pogba should be able to do it, but he is not interested as it seems he want to be more offensive.

So yeah, wishful thinking by Ole, but high press is haaaaaaard. O yeah, even teams that can do it, hope they can grab 2-3 goal lead so they can relax and play low press with counter attacks.

"Tactics to take the ball from the opponent as soon as they get it"

The above is false and doesn't apply to the high press. Rather it applies to counter pressing after losing the ball in a vulnerable part of the pitch with players committed to attack.

 

[Okey]

Our press is quite comical. One player running towards the opponent as they try to play out from the back, and imploring another to join him, is not a press. Watch Southampton against us this season for what a coordinated press looks like (just one example, there's many). Funny thing is, we have actually pressed well as a team on occasion. See the Citeh game at home before the lockdown as example. But it's once in a blue moon. Basically, we deal in moments, like Neville (and me with my mates, and I'm sure a good many of us) put it. We expect better from Ole, but there's hardly any evidence he's capable of better on a regular basis. We just have to hope our 'moments' are enough to achieve something worth celebrating, or wait for the next manager. Knowing United, a new manager appointment is a slippery slope, in terms of getting it right.

 

[lawliet354]

Because pressing is tactical, not just blindly running around everywhere every time. Look at Inter last season for example, you can clearly see how the team pressed together at a certain time depends on the position of the opponents and the ball, which comes from coaching

 

[MadDogg]

Fred, Bruno, Cavani and Lingard are the only ones who actually try to press. Since only two of them normally play, it's quite easy for the opposition to bypass that attempted press and then move into space.

Ronaldo, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Matic, Pogba and McTominay are all poor at it. Rashford used to be good but changed his game significantly from the start of 19/20 and no longer does it. McTominay has the occasional match where he does it well (which leads people to think he's good at it), but in general he's barely any better than Matic and Pogba. Those two are the questionable ones when it comes to Ole's tactics though - they've both shown that they can do it but simply don't anymore. Greenwood has improved but is still fairly average.

 

[buckooo1978]

Fred, Bruno, Cavani and Lingard are the only ones who actually try to press. Since only two of them normally play, it's quite easy for the opposition to bypass that attempted press and then move into space.

Ronaldo, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Matic, Pogba and McTominay are all poor at it. Rashford used to be good but changed his game significantly from the start of 19/20 and no longer does it. McTominay has the occasional match where he does it well (which leads people to think he's good at it), but in general he's barely any better than Matic and Pogba. Those two are the questionable ones when it comes to Ole's tactics though - they've both shown that they can do it but simply don't anymore. Greenwood has improved but is still fairly average.

yep

Dan James was by far our most effective presser before being sold. Obviously there was a quality issue with him but it would seem Ole has abandoned pressing as any strategy

Pressing isn't our biggest issue at the same time.

 

[Adnan]

It's difficult to decipher who is good at applying pressure until we see a coordinated approach to pressing. We haven't seen that and it would not surprise me one bit if a new coach came in and succeeded pretty quickly with the players some seem to think can't press.

First of all, the foundation of the team (CBs) needs to maintain a higher defensive line without the ball (which we haven't seen yet) and until that happens we will see a sporadic press. If you can't create a compact block via a high line then evading the press will be comfortable for the opposition.

 

[reelworld]

I don't even know what his vision is.
Well, I got some ideas, but the players he choose to buy doesn't really reflect that. So I don't know about that

 

[wise_old_man]

I just think he quickly realised some of the key players at the club aren't capable of playing that way but are/were too good to discard; Pogba Martial Matic etc. Think you'd have finally seen a Utd a lot closer to his ideal this year if Ronaldo hadn't signed and Pog had left

You make it sounds like Ronaldo and Pogba ate up our budget. But in reality who were we actively pursing that would fit with this "vision" last summer?

 

[lex talionis]

Aren't you contradicting yourself though? Southampton's goal was from a deflected shot, but Southampton got possession via a foul on Bruno which was not called. And Southampton got another good chance after Maguire played the opponent in with a horrible pass near goal. United played well and were unfortunate not to get the 3 points due not finishing their chances. Against Villa, United and Villa were pretty open and went up and down the pitch.

Whenever United have gone down by a goal, do they not comeback to at least equalize more times than not? They have accumulated the most points from losing positions since the beginning of last season. How is that not risking anything?

We all point to the manager saying, oh, can they handle the pressure? Well we need to always look at players too and see if they can handle the pressure. I don't think AWB or McTominay can handle the pressure and be starters for United, not even speaking about their average technical ability or passing abilities.

Yes, we can point to a bit of bad luck having conspired against us, but we’re allowing clubs like Southampton and Villa to stay in the game and take a scrappy point or more off us. Why are we so cautious with the ball, at best taking no-hope shots from distance and eventually having to chase a goal late in matches? McFred together defend well enough, but they offer nothing with the ball. Our superior talent enables us to pick up late match winners, but we can’t always count on that.

Ole needs to be more brave, but it takes, well, courage to be brave.

 

[bosnian_red]

Less abandoned his plan more didn't know how to execute it

 

[reelworld]

Because pressing is tactical, not just blindly running around everywhere every time. Look at Inter last season for example, you can clearly see how the team pressed together at a certain time depends on the position of the opponents and the ball, which comes from coaching

This.
Pressing at it's core is basically depriving your opponent options so they make a mistake. Running around blindly would actually leave gaps that they would exploit. In good pressing, I'd say good positioning and understanding where your team mates are the most important thing. Less so the physical aspect of it

 

[wise_old_man]

I’m not sure what the path forward is, but it’s increasingly clear we need to bring in a manager who can handle the cauldron of pressure at Old Trafford. I’m not sure such a human being exists.

Real Madrid arguably emits an even harder pressure on their managers, and their home fans are much less forgiving than the Old Trafford crowd. Yet Real Madrid has no issue replacing their managers from time to time. So I don't buy this notion that the manager job at Old Trafford is this uniquely tough job. If any, Manchester United is much more lax to the manager compared to other top teams (Real, Bayern, Chelsea...).

 

[Beans]

We suck at pressing, or closing on attackers at all. When we get the ball, a defender is right on us. Our player can't turn and beat the defender, so they dribble backward. When they have the ball we back off, for the most part. It's remarkable we can compete at all under these conditions, we really do have some incredible players, offensively.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

We can’t know why this has gone off the rails under Ole, but since we’re here to speculate my speculation is that Old Trafford is a cauldron of pressure and that Ole has cracked under the pressure.

Sticking with McFred is a clear sign to me that he’s terrified of losing to lesser sides like Villa. If you don’t concede you can’t lose if you’re not losing Kate in the game there’s always a chance a moment if magic will dig out the win. But deflections do happen and set piece goals do happen. We should be playing on the front foot, but that means taking risks. For reasons we can all understand, Ole is unable to risk defeat by going for victory. It’s no surprise we drop stupid points to clubs like Southampton and Villa.

Other than Ferguson, who since Busby has been successful managing Manchester United? No one, actually.

I’m not sure what the path forward is, but it’s increasingly clear we need to bring in a manager who can handle the cauldron of pressure at Old Trafford. I’m not sure such a human being exists.

Imagine being adored and your name being sung for 25 years and one day you know the same fans start to get disillusioned with you when you start losing. You'll never recover, god damn it Ed.

 

[justsomebloke]

Talk is extremely cheap. What would you say if you became the manager of Manchester United? Exactly those things. Who would you buy if you had the biggest budget in the world? Sancho for sure, Varane a no-brainer, Bruno most likely given the lack of attacking mids at the time, Ronaldo never a doubt.. it’s not like Solskjær is a visionary in any single way.

Solskjær can say whatever he wants with experience from a semi-amateur league in his old country, but intensity, fitness and so on is much easier to fork out in such a league. Every team in England have top physical regiments, Ole Solskjær has no way of knowing how to maker us better, smarter or fitter, this is not Norway. Rosenborg hired this academic fitness guy with research, diplomas and Excel-sheets in the bag before the season to become the fittest team, and maybe they got better at it, but English teams have ten of them.

Except he played more than a decade in the PL, was Uniteds U23 coach and managed Cardiff, so what the feck are you on about? You think he - and the rest of United's coaching staff - doesn't know what sort of physical fitness the PL requires?

It'd be nice if you people could pull yourself out of your collective Ole psychosis for long enough to do a little bit of basic thinking before writing, at least occasionally.

 

[glazed]

Pep must thank God he was blessed with workhorses and amazing tacklers like David Silva, De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Mahrez, Sterling, Aguero and Jesus.

You may be correct that with a coach of Pep's quality many but not all of these players can be converted to high pressers. My guess is Pogba would just get the hump and finally leave if asked to do this but that might be unfair. Remember also Pep tried to make Joe Hart into a sweeper keeper and ultimately just dumped him. Not every player can change their game. Not every player will.

It's somewhat academic as Pep is unavailable. The best high presser available is someone like Poch. Look at the fun he's having trying to get Messi to play ball.

What's completely clear is that Ole has neither the knowledge or the desire to use that system. And the teams that do that system well are the ones that tend to win stuff.

 

[kouroux]

It's difficult to decipher who is good at applying pressure until we see a coordinated approach to pressing. We haven't seen that and it would not surprise me one bit if a new coach came in and succeeded pretty quickly with the players some seem to think can't press.

First of all, the foundation of the team (CBs) needs to maintain a higher defensive line without the ball (which we haven't seen yet) and until that happens we will see a sporadic press. If you can't create a compact block via a high line then evading the press will be comfortable for the opposition.

I agree with you regarding the CBs needing to push high but when we have Maguire there, it's a very risky tactic

 

[kouroux]

You may be correct that with a coach of Pep's quality many but not all of these players can be converted to high pressers. My guess is Pogba would just get the hump and finally leave if asked to do this but that might be unfair. Remember also Pep tried to make Joe Hart into a sweeper keeper and ultimately just dumped him. Not every player can change their game. Not every player will.

It's somewhat academic as Pep is unavailable. The best high presser available is someone like Poch. Look at the fun he's having trying to get Messi to play ball.

What's completely clear is that Ole has neither the knowledge or the desire to use that system. And the teams that do that system well are the ones that tend to win stuff.

A bit unfair tbh, Messi has barely been available even if I have no doubt, you will be proven right over time

 

[Santoryo]

Ridiculous excuse.

The excuses people toss around are wild.

 

[Adnan]

I agree with you regarding the CBs needing to push high but when we have Maguire there, it's a very risky tactic

That's another problem Solskjaer created by signing players that were unsuited to playing the football he spoke of wanting to implement in his first transfer window. So it's not really a surprise to me how it's gone thus far. But let's hope Varane can help a little in that regard.

 

[largelyworried]

He's tried it at times, our pressing definitely improved after he first took over. Early on I think fitness was a problem, the team got gassed in his first partial season after trying to press. But I think the real problem is that we just never got very good at it and as a result it stopped being a useful tool for us.

I was trying to rack my brains to think about how many times we've successfully turned over the ball in dangerous areas through a press and made a chance on goal. If you look at Liverpool when they won the league, they were doing it all the time, especially against the better teams. Or if you look at the way that City suffocated PSG in the CL last season with a relentless press, PSG couldn't get out of their own half at times. While we do press, I think its been fairly ineffective. I certainly don't see it as an effective weapon in our arsenal.

And as we've stopped pressing high, we've stopped buying players to do it. Of the team we put out against Villa, who in it really suits a pressing game? Greenwood plays his part. Bruno works hard but isn't positionally disciplined. Ronaldo and Pogba aren't exactly your first picks in a pressing team. The defence and goalkeeper arent set up to play a high line either. McFred are fine for a press but your midfielders can't make up for your attackers. So at this point in time its not really likely to change.

 

[Lee565]

We can’t know why this has gone off the rails under Ole, but since we’re here to speculate my speculation is that Old Trafford is a cauldron of pressure and that Ole has cracked under the pressure.

Sticking with McFred is a clear sign to me that he’s terrified of losing to lesser sides like Villa. If you don’t concede you can’t lose if you’re not losing Kate in the game there’s always a chance a moment if magic will dig out the win. But deflections do happen and set piece goals do happen. We should be playing on the front foot, but that means taking risks. For reasons we can all understand, Ole is unable to risk defeat by going for victory. It’s no surprise we drop stupid points to clubs like Southampton and Villa.

Other than Ferguson, who since Busby has been successful managing Manchester United? No one, actually.

I’m not sure what the path forward is, but it’s increasingly clear we need to bring in a manager who can handle the cauldron of pressure at Old Trafford. I’m not sure such a human being exists.

The same mentality that moyes, mourinho and van gaal had at the club and yet ole is seen as doing it the "united way", it would be great if we can finally bring in a manager that is more afraid of not winning every match instead of losing them for the first time since fergie was here.

 

[glazed]

That's another problem Solskjaer created by signing players that were unsuited to playing the football he spoke of wanting to implement in his first transfer window. So it's not really a surprise to me how it's gone thus far. But let's hope Varane can help a little in that regard.

Goes back to the point that we have bought all our players without reference to the high press way of playing. Hypothetically some may adapt while others won't be able to. But the Glazers run the transfer policy with a tight eye on the returns and a loose eye on the footballing rewards. One reason that they like Ole is that he is compliant to that. He doesn't have many explicit demands that limit the commercial dimension of transfer strategy.

The odds of the Glazers green lighting a shift over to high press seem remote to me. It requires a long term football first approach to restructuring and managing the club which is at odds with their commercial strategy.

 

[Borys]

There are two types of pressing: organized pressing and headless chicken pressing. Since we can't do the first, and the second is too energy draining, we changed approach to more passive.
Also, I remember we tried to press in previous seasons but quite often it was just ineffective as teams were able to play through us, what left us stretched and exposed at the back. I think this is why Ole abandoned his "vision".

 

[harms]

You and I can press, why wouldn't professional, athletic footballers do that if they were instructed to? Ridiculous.

You can't press at the required level. You can probably run around the pitch for a bit before running out of breath.

 

[Adnan]

Goes back to the point that we have bought all our players without reference to the high press way of playing. Hypothetically some may adapt while others won't be able to. But the Glazers run the transfer policy with a tight eye on the returns and a loose eye on the footballing rewards. One reason that they like Ole is that he is compliant to that. He doesn't have many explicit demands that limit the commercial dimension of transfer strategy.

The odds of the Glazers green lighting a shift over to high press seem remote to me. It requires a long term football first approach to restructuring and managing the club which is at odds with their commercial strategy.

Are you saying the Glazers bought Maguire and AWB without Ole's say so?

 

[Mickson]

You can't press at the required level. You can probably run around the pitch for a bit before running out of breath.

yeah but you know what I mean, most professional players can, and especially at Manchester United. I agree everyone isn't ideal in that regard (Ronaldo), but for most of our squad, it would be no problem. I actually see AWB, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, Rashford, Cavani as ideal for that.

 

[Bestietom]

Aren't you contradicting yourself though? Southampton's goal was from a deflected shot, but Southampton got possession via a foul on Bruno which was not called. And Southampton got another good chance after Maguire played the opponent in with a horrible pass near goal. United played well and were unfortunate not to get the 3 points due not finishing their chances. Against Villa, United and Villa were pretty open and went up and down the pitch.

Whenever United have gone down by a goal, do they not comeback to at least equalize more times than not? They have accumulated the most points from losing positions since the beginning of last season. How is that not risking anything?

We all point to the manager saying, oh, can they handle the pressure? Well we need to always look at players too and see if they can handle the pressure. I don't think AWB or McTominay can handle the pressure and be starters for United, not even speaking about their average technical ability or passing abilities.

I agree. I think a top holding midfielder could be the answer to our problems. McFred doesn't work for us and we need to change the system to 4-3-3

 

[NoLogo]

The pressing doesn't work because we ain't got the team for it. CR ain't pressing, Bruno does it when he feels like, Sancho should be used to it from playing for Dortmund, not quite sure, but I never felt Greenwood was very keen on pressing either. I don't even want to talk about Martial, I'm already happy he doesn't take a nap right there on the field when he plays.

 

[Borys]

We don't have the players to run and press all day long.

Ronaldo isn't gonna press, Pogba isn't gonna press, Rashford isn't gonna press, Greenwood will, Bruno will press but does it ineffectively. I don't know enough about Sancho to know if he is that sort of player. Cavani will but he's a squad player now.

To be one of those elite pressing teams, you have to work extremely hard and work as a unit. We don't do that. There was plenty of occasions on Saturday where an attacker pressed but wasn't helped by a teammate. It achieves feck all.

I don't think only extremely hard-working teams can press effectively. Good organization will make us better at pressing than having a team of 11 Freds without organization (pretty much what we have right now).

 

[golden_blunder]

Talk is extremely cheap. What would you say if you became the manager of Manchester United? Exactly those things. Who would you buy if you had the biggest budget in the world? Sancho for sure, Varane a no-brainer, Bruno most likely given the lack of attacking mids at the time, Ronaldo never a doubt.. it’s not like Solskjær is a visionary in any single way.

Solskjær can say whatever he wants with experience from a semi-amateur league in his old country, but intensity, fitness and so on is much easier to fork out in such a league. Every team in England have top physical regiments, Ole Solskjær has no way of knowing how to maker us better, smarter or fitter, this is not Norway. Rosenborg hired this academic fitness guy with research, diplomas and Excel-sheets in the bag before the season to become the fittest team, and maybe they got better at it, but English teams have ten of them.

Sorry but that 2nd paragraph.. load of nonsense from a fitness point if view. Firstly he was a professional footballer for Manchester United. You don’t think he knows how to get fit? This was a guy who was out injured for 3 years and got fit again. Secondly he was managed by SAF who himself brought in numerous staff including fitness coaches.

 

[MichaelRed]

Cause he has no vision. Part of me makes me feel we shouldn’t have won that PSG so we could have actually got in someone with a vision of how to play football.

I wouldn't get hung up on that PSG game bud. Beating PSG was no excuse for hiring him. They should have waited until the end of the season as was the initial plan & he would have never been hired after losing 8 of the final 10 games of the season. We got to enjoy the PSG night for what it was and it's the ineptitude of the club that caused us to hire Ole full time.

 

[yipthatman]

Because a lot of times the opponent scores first and defends well.

 

[Bestietom]

I don't think only extremely hard-working teams can press effectively. Good organization will make us better at pressing than having a team of 11 Freds without organization (pretty much what we have right now).

I Agree. Other teams sometimes seem to be fitter than us because they work harder and are organized better.
You can be the fittest team in the league but it's all lost if you don't work together, and are not organized.