The RedCafe Boxing Thread

JP77 said:
On no planet would Joseph Parker vs Fury have been a bigger fight than Wilder vs Fury. I don't care about your idea that Wilder couldn't sell out a school hall. People were hyped for Fury against Wilder in the first and second fight. And even though we all believed Fury would smash him in the third, it garnered great interest and was massively talked about. It's massively unlikely Parker vs Fury would have had anywhere near the same interest. Whyte vs Fury would be built great because they would both talk the shit out of that fight and hype it but let's not act like Whyte is some huge name, he's known in the UK, that doesn't make him a household name.
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Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.
 
ivaldo said:
Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.
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Exactly this. It was a well known fact that Fury was the draw v Wilder in the first fight. He couldn’t even walk down the street without being recognised and Wilder could
 
ivaldo said:
Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.
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I'm certainly not debating that mate, Fury/AJ IMO is the biggest fight that can be made in the division in terms of both the actual fight itself and the numbers it would draw. I think AJ/Wilder would do brilliantly as well, numbers wise more down to AJ of course. Wilder on his own isn't a huge draw but when you put him in there with a Fury or Joshua it's one of the biggest fights you can make in the heavyweight divison. For the record I personally wasn't talking just numbers either but an overall package of the fight.

John Fury was speaking on it and I think he's right in what he said, it's going to be tough for Fury to now get up for fights like a Whyte or Parker. Whyte at a very push but I think realistically if you want a properly motivated Fury at his absolute best he needs to be fighting AJ or Usyk. The days of him facing anybody like Parker, Povetkin etc are long gone IMO. He fought Wallin etc because he had been out for song long and needed to rebuild himself, now he's done that it needs to be huge fights or massive challenges and there's just not that many left. Like I said though as much as I want to see him against Joshua, I'd be well up for him fighting Whyte because the build up would be brilliant and the fight would be too and it'd be great to see Fury fighting back in the UK again.
 
JP77 said:
I'm certainly not debating that mate, Fury/AJ IMO is the biggest fight that can be made in the division in terms of both the actual fight itself and the numbers it would draw. I think AJ/Wilder would do brilliantly as well, numbers wise more down to AJ of course. Wilder on his own isn't a huge draw but when you put him in there with a Fury or Joshua it's one of the biggest fights you can make in the heavyweight divison. For the record I personally wasn't talking just numbers either but an overall package of the fight.

John Fury was speaking on it and I think he's right in what he said, it's going to be tough for Fury to now get up for fights like a Whyte or Parker. Whyte at a very push but I think realistically if you want a properly motivated Fury at his absolute best he needs to be fighting AJ or Usyk. The days of him facing anybody like Parker, Povetkin etc are long gone IMO. He fought Wallin etc because he had been out for song long and needed to rebuild himself, now he's done that it needs to be huge fights or massive challenges and there's just not that many left. Like I said though as much as I want to see him against Joshua, I'd be well up for him fighting Whyte because the build up would be brilliant and the fight would be too and it'd be great to see Fury fighting back in the UK again.
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AJ and Fury are far and away the biggest pulls in the division. Uysk is going to be up there now and Wilder, despite being thoroughly outclassed 3 times by Fury, in terms of credibility and draw he has benefited massively for it.

I agree with Parker. If AJ can outbox him then Fury can do it at a canter. Whyte is a dangerous opponent now though and I think he would be worth the effort. Whether Fury can get himself up for it though is another matter.

To me, it still demonstrates the dearth in talent the division has.
 
If you haven't got a belt, Tyson isn't interested. We were one AJ victory away from the unification :(
 
Alright bare with me…So hypothetically, say Joshua beats Usyk in the rematch and then goes on to somehow overcome Fury for unification, where does that leave his legacy? Is he considered best in the world/best of his generation then?

I’m aware that is currently looking unlikely but I do think he’s become a little underrated and it wouldn’t be an impossible scenario.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Alright bare with me…So hypothetically, say Joshua beats Usyk in the rematch and then goes on to somehow overcome Fury for unification, where does that leave his legacy? Is he considered best in the world/best of his generation then?

I’m aware that is currently looking unlikely but I do think he’s become a little underrated and it wouldn’t be an impossible scenario.
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Who cares, I would just be glad to see Fury vs AJ for all the belts and be thankful to be alive during this British heavyweight era, similar to the Messi/Ronaldo situation in football*.

*No, I'm not saying Fury/AJ are that good.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Alright bare with me…So hypothetically, say Joshua beats Usyk in the rematch and then goes on to somehow overcome Fury for unification, where does that leave his legacy? Is he considered best in the world/best of his generation then?

I’m aware that is currently looking unlikely but I do think he’s become a little underrated and it wouldn’t be an impossible scenario.
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Beating Usyk in a rematch, irrespective of fighting Fury, would be mammoth for Joshua's legacy. All but the most staunch of fans have him written off and give him little chance of reclaiming the belts.

Joshua would have to retain the belts after winning them against Fury and Wilder to have a claim as the de facto best of his era, but beating Usyk and Fury consecutively would be epic and unbelievable in itself as he's the underdog against both, actually, for me, he's the underdog from the four now, so his redemption arc is right there waiting to be written.

The problem now is you have two natural, born and bred boxers matching up against fighters who got into it late. It really shows, and it will most likely continue to show until the naturals fight each other and the two that got into it late face off, if that ever materialises.
 
Fortitude said:
You've gone to 15 and still no Bowe, really? Is your list based on ability or achievement? Peak Bowe is a huge threat in the division - I'm guessing the longevity is your issue with him?
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As I say, it’s not a head-to-head ranking, it’s more of what they accomplished and also relative to their eras. Bowe is held back by a very short prime and outside of a Holyfield trilogy, he has a very thin resume which includes two beatings by Golota. I could see a case for him top 20, but you’ve also got Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, three guys who I’d pick him to beat, but three guys his career was unquestionably inferior to. I would pick Bowe to beat Tyson, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson too for what it’s worth.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Indeed but that’s not what we are speaking about, more so his lack of conviction. Wlad looked sharper, in better shape and had better movement at Wembley. He looked rejuvenated after having looked stale and bored for a good few years.

Its still Wlad so it’s a great scalp no matter what condition he was in, but what most seem to be taking issue with is this idea that Fury is the best of his generation or one of the best of all time. If he wants to claim he’s the best of his generation he’s needs a few more quality names on his record for me.
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I think a lot of that had to do with styles and skills. Fury got inside Wlad’s head, nullified him, took the lead and he couldn’t get into the fight. It was a dreadful fight but very effective. Wlad definitely didn’t improve in the 12+ months he had out at that age, he simply fought an opponent who presented him with opportunities that weren’t there vs. Fury. Joshua got gassed and doesn’t possess Fury’s skills or boxing IQ.

Both were great wins for their own different reasons and while the Joshua fight was a classic, I think it changed Joshua’s thinking and approach for the worse and Fury was the man to take the titles off him.
 
lefty_jakobz said:
Fury beats AJ easily for me. Its like putting up an amateur (AJ) vs a professional (Fury), he hits harder than Ruiz and Usyk. AJ is probably the most over hyped of all the HWs, he hasnt got the boxing ability to trouble Fury. I can see Wilder retiring AJ, AJ hates being hit as we saw against both Ruiz and Usyk, its like once hes hit he forgets how to do even the basics.

As good as Fury is, he doesnt beat a peak Tyson Lewis Ali Bowe Foreman. Id even say he wouldnt beat a peak Haye. The heavyweights around now are all garbage except for Fury and maybe Usyk.
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Fury has certain intangibles that would give him a very good chance of beating many of those guys you listed. He’d ruin Haye. Haye knew that and that’s why he kept pretending to want the fight and kept pulling out and ended up saying “I’ll never fight him” which leads me to believe his goal was to just stall Fury’s career for some bizarre reason or simply because he got scared. That was when Fury was green too.

Fury-Joshua, it’s a punchers chance only for AJ, and I think he’s a lot more predictable than Wilder, which means he’d likely win more rounds but is unlikely to drop Fury.

Fury’s guts, adaptability, ability to fight inside (which for a 6 9 heavy is astonishing), boxing IQ, movement, calm under pressure, natural instincts etc; make him a tough out for damn near every heavyweight who ever lived.
 
TheReligion said:
Let's be honest the best boxer on the eye had to have been Pernell Whittaker
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Chocolatito Roman Gonzalez and Terence Crawford are pretty good on the eye.


On a lesser note I’m liking Avanesyan and Jamie Munguia.
 
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Inter Yer Nan said:
As I say, it’s not a head-to-head ranking, it’s more of what they accomplished and also relative to their eras. Bowe is held back by a very short prime and outside of a Holyfield trilogy, he has a very thin resume which includes two beatings by Golota. I could see a case for him top 20, but you’ve also got Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, three guys who I’d pick him to beat, but three guys his career was unquestionably inferior to. I would pick Bowe to beat Tyson, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson too for what it’s worth.
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I get where you're coming from, just that he's a proper spanner in the works given his skillset and ability when focused. 'peak' Bowe would be a problem child in ranking, but yeah, longevity and his rapid decline/disinterest does him absolutely no favours.
 
How do people think Fury would fair against David Tua I think he’d be a nightmare for Fury.
 
Deery said:
Chocolatito Roman Gonzalez and Terence Crawford are pretty good on the eye.


On a lesser note I’m liking Avanesyan and Jamie Munguia.
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Loma? Depends what you like to see I suppose. If you say Avanesyan and I say Loma we’re probably looking for different things (not that I don’t like watching avenesyan)
 
Zen said:
If Wilder can knock him down 3 times in total.... I'm sure others could too. I'm not sure what I think of Fury on the whole, I love that he dismantled the horrific myth of Wilder in their first fight after everything that came beforehand and also the Wlad fight... this fight was utterly pointless, he beat him in 1, and horrifically beat him in 2.... just to more or less do it again, even if he did get knocked down twice :lol:

But now he'll sit on this "greatest of my era" shit on the basis on that which is kinda true right now, boxing is shit because of it. I'm not overly sure who started this bullshit cherry picking to create false legacies, probably Sugar Rey Leonard, but Floyd took it an obscene level.... and now loads are at it.
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one of if not the hardest flash puncher in heavyweight history, so probably not so easy. Wilder can graze a guy and he goes down.
LDUred said:
I think a lot of people here are just giving Fury the credit he deserves for beating a guy who was 40 and 0 arguably 3 times in his own backyard. It's not easy to do that, no matter what you think of Deontay Wilder boxing wise. Doing that is not endorsing Fury the guy who is an extremely complex individual and who has had serious mental health issues, been on the verge of suicide, and who was seemingly self-destructing.

Fury has said some things in the past that are pretty disgusting and indefensible. Yes, things which are racist and which are homophobic. At the same time, he's had bouts of mental instability and is in his own way a victim. He is also from a Traveller background which means he's probably been on the receiving end of racism himself.

I think people are giving Tyson a chance to redeem himself because he has shown courage in confronting something that a lot of men are struggling with. I wouldn't say anyone is condoning what he has said and done in the past or has this idea that he is now a saint. They are just giving him his due.
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NasirTimothy said:
no excuses for racism.
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what did he say?!?!
Deery said:
Fury would get destroyed by Lennox, Tyson, Vitali, Ali, Foreman, Bowe. etc.

Maybe he’s big and can box a bit but those guys were real superstars if Cunningham can put Fury on his back I dread to think what a prime Tyson or Lewis would do to him.
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are they destroying him at 270lbs? I have never seen Tyson or Ali beat a 6"9 270lb man with a chin. Why are you assessing him from an old fight? Lewis nor Tyson have a right hand like Wilder. It literally gets him out of jail. He has little else but its a one hitter quitter. Like he loses every fight then lands the right. no one has that. You act like these other guys didn''t get put on their arses too. How is 5"10 Tyson laying a glove on Fury? he is giving up a foot. Heavyweights nowadays are true heavyweights.
Fortitude said:
Whilst I am not questioning your first paragraph, don't you think it's absolutely pointless to mention Fury of the distant past and not the belt holder version(s)?

If you're going to use nadir, or compromised points, not a single boxer in your opener comes out smelling of roses. We use the best, most peak of all fighters for these discussions for a reason as that's the true reflection of the boxer being discussed. I mean, when you're talking Tyson, I'd immediately assume the Cus version, and not the spiralled shadow he became; same with Lewis: not the guy getting dropped by fighters who have no business doing that to him, but rather the lazer focused 'second time round' version that was a completely different animal in rematches.
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good points
 
Stacks said:
and he are they destroying him at 270lbs? I have never seen Tyson or Ali beat a 6"9 270lb man with a chin. Why are you assessing him from an old fight? Lewis nor Tyson have a right hand like Wilder. It literally gets him out of jail. He has little else but its a one hitter quitter. Like he loses every fight then lands the right. no one has that. You act like these other guys didn''t get put on their arses too. How is 5"10 Tyson laying a glove on Fury? he is giving up a foot. Heavyweights nowadays are true heavyweights.
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If Ali can take all big George can throw at him and still knock him out he has no problems with Fury and Mike not leave a glove on him laughable, Tyson would smash his ribs in before knocking his head off l suggest you go back and watch some old Mike footage there’s no way Fury stands up to that ferociousness Mike fought plenty of big guys.
 
T00lsh3d said:
Loma? Depends what you like to see I suppose. If you say Avanesyan and I say Loma we’re probably looking for different things (not that I don’t like watching avenesyan)
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I was thinking someone was going to say Lomachenko but you know something he never really excites me, but he is a quality operator one of the best for sure.
 
Deery said:
How do people think Fury would fair against David Tua I think he’d be a nightmare for Fury.
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Tua is too old now…

J/k - I think he’d struggle to land enough on Fury and would fall behind. We know if he did land, Fury can recover and sap your strength. Ibeabuchi would be a very difficult match for Fury or anyone of recent times really. Had an unbelievable engine, bulky, great chin, power, could box and bang.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Tua is too old now…

J/k - I think he’d struggle to land enough on Fury and would fall behind. We know if he did land, Fury can recover and sap your strength. Ibeabuchi would be a very difficult match for Fury or anyone of recent times really. Had an unbelievable engine, bulky, great chin, power, could box and bang.
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Yeah Ibeabuchi looks like he could trouble Fury, just watched the Calvin Jones fight not dissimilar to the shape of a Tyson Fury. I like the way he goes to the body first then finished him off.
 
Just a reminder that Fury has fought one top 10 fighter in 5 years. His resume is still not that good and it's a million miles away from being a all time great one.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Alright bare with me…So hypothetically, say Joshua beats Usyk in the rematch and then goes on to somehow overcome Fury for unification, where does that leave his legacy? Is he considered best in the world/best of his generation then?

I’m aware that is currently looking unlikely but I do think he’s become a little underrated and it wouldn’t be an impossible scenario.
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Yes and yes to both. But that's a big ask.
 
Fortitude said:
Dunno, it's so hard to call: Lewis' jab is the great equaliser in almost any contest and he has composure and know-how once he knows his opponent, but he never fought anyone as fleet-footed as Fury or as massive and odd, so it distorts things a lot.

Outside of Ali pre-ban, and Cus Tyson, nearly all the fantasy contests are right in the middle of the ring with exchanges and wits over ridiculous movement and beguiling footwork and someone as massive as Fury presents problems in that regard these guys didn't deal with in their legendary battles with each other.

I don't think these contests are washes, though, well, outside of the ones where one style is custom-made to take out another.
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Deery said:
If Ali can take all big George can throw at him and still knock him out he has no problems with Fury and Mike not leave a glove on him laughable, Tyson would smash his ribs in before knocking his head off l suggest you go back and watch some old Mike footage there’s no way Fury stands up to that ferociousness Mike fought plenty of big guys.
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Yeah he'd probably be too fast for Fury. The Cus era Tyson was a different beast, he was hard to hit due to his peekaboo and crouching style and he was bloody quick with his combos. Anyway, I was reading somewhere that Ali had the fastest jab apparently it was quicker than Robinson's.


Oh and Holmes is criminally underrated. I'm glad he's got a mention in this thread.
 
Deery said:
If Ali can take all big George can throw at him and still knock him out he has no problems with Fury and Mike not leave a glove on him laughable, Tyson would smash his ribs in before knocking his head off l suggest you go back and watch some old Mike footage there’s no way Fury stands up to that ferociousness Mike fought plenty of big guys.
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Yeah he is tough to take that much punishment from Foreman but Tyson will be grabbling him and leaning his 270lb on him to drain him. Don't think Foreman has that IQ. Also FOreman exhausted himself in a way Tyson would never due to boxing IQ and the way they pace themselves. Mike fought an 184lb man once. His heaviest opponent of 6"6 271lb Kevin Mcbride who he lost to. McBride is trash though. I foot in height difference is quite significant. Like facing a giant.
 
Spoony said:
Yeah he'd probably be too fast for Fury. The Cus era Tyson was a different beast, he was hard to hit due to his peekaboo and crouching style and he was bloody quick with his combos. Anyway, I was reading somewhere that Ali had the fastest jab apparently it was quicker than Robinson's.


Oh and Holmes is criminally underrated. I'm glad he's got a mention in this thread.
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There’s a YouTube video Muhammad Ali amazing speed and there’s a point in it he has a guy up against the ropes then let’s loose. You should watch it Ali was extremely quick.
 
Stacks said:
Yeah he is tough to take that much punishment from Foreman but Tyson will be grabbling him and leaning his 270lb on him to drain him. Don't think Foreman has that IQ. Also FOreman exhausted himself in a way Tyson would never due to boxing IQ and the way they pace themselves. Mike fought an 184lb man once. His heaviest opponent of 6"6 271lb Kevin Mcbride who he lost to. McBride is trash though. I foot in height difference is quite significant. Like facing a giant.
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He beat Larry Holmes and he is a big guy, McBride fought the version of Tyson none of us cared to see though he was shot at that stage. Ali I think would be too fast for him and out box him a younger version of Ali maybe before the lay off that is and avoid the clinching.
 
Is prime Mike Tyson overrated? I don't mean Tyson's career in general but the actual prime Mike Tyson? Was he really this great at his peak? I don't have enough knowledge to judge his opponents during his prime days.
(would his prime have been from '86 to '90?)
 
VorZakone said:
Is prime Mike Tyson overrated? I don't mean Tyson's career in general but the actual prime Mike Tyson? Was he really this great at his peak? I don't have enough knowledge to judge his opponents during his prime days.
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I think he was highly rated for years but is now being somewhat underrated not just on these boards but in general.
 
Deery said:
He beat Larry Holmes and he is a big guy, McBride fought the version of Tyson none of us cared to see though he was shot at that stage. Ali I think would be too fast for him and out box him a younger version of Ali maybe before the lay off that is and avoid the clinching.
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Tyrell Biggs was a touch under 6ft 6. Tucker too.
 
VorZakone said:
Is prime Mike Tyson overrated? I don't mean Tyson's career in general but the actual prime Mike Tyson? Was he really this great at his peak? I don't have enough knowledge to judge his opponents during his prime days.
(would his prime have been from '86 to '90?)
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I believe so. I think the marketing and mythology behind the idea of a “prime Tyson” has been aggressive and has brainwashed many. He was a great talent and was explosive, accomplished a lot, but he’s not one of the best fighters ever. “Prime” Tyson had limitations too and also benefitted from an uninspired era. The perfect storm. Had he been born 5 years later he likely never wins the title because he wouldnt beat Holyfield, Bowe, or Lewis. 5 years earlier he wouldn’t beat a prime Holmes.
 
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