Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

[JPRouve]

You’re entitled to hold any opinion you desire. I’m just questioning aspects of it. As is the point of a forum. We’ll have to agree to disagree on how players like Rose and Walker were viewed I’m afraid.

I have no issue with your questions, they are relevant. But when I say that he helped these players achieve their potential and you conclude your post with "but he improved many of these players.", it reads like you either didn't read what I said or want me to say something else. And when it comes to Walker, not all players get the PFA youth player of the year, it's generally won by players that are talented.

But again I have no issue with us conversing and disagreeing, but here I simply stated that he helped talentend players acheive their potential which is true and to his credit. It gets a bit strange when people deny players talent.

 

[Damien]

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Surely it has to be concluded that nobody really knows what's going on here, briefs and false reporting all over the place

Was daft for papers to suggest we'd approach PSG right before they play one of their most important games of the season so far, especially when they're probably pissed off with the speculation as it is.

If we are interested in Poch now (I doubt it with the number of links to interim managers), we'd start talks after tonight's game and not before.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I honestly think we might be waiting to see how the game tonight ends and see how things unfold for Pochettino and PSG. A bad result + the weight of speculation might just tilt things for Leonardo and PSG owners.

 

[charlenefan]

I was talking about the players themselves not Spurs. Alli and Eriksen regressed under Pochettino. And typically there is an exaggeration in the way you talk about these players, they weren't flops and jokes during Villas Boas first season, they were young players developing and as I already said in both of the post you quoted, yes Pochettino helped them which is to his credit but he had talented players and prospects.

Erikisen at best was considered the least floppy of the flops bought with the Bale money, he certainly wasn't viewed as a success until Poch's peak Spurs side

Alli was signed under Poch not AVB

You say both regressed under Poch but the fact is they regressed from their peak which they found under Poch in the first place

 

[JPRouve]

Erikisen at best was considered the least floppy of the flops bought with the Bale money, he certainly wasn't viewed as a success until Poch's peak Spurs side

Alli was signed under Poch not AVB

You say both regressed under Poch but the fact is they regressed from their peak which they found under Poch in the first place

Eriksen was considered talented coming from Ajax and only played one season at Tottenham before Pochettino joined it's a bit of a stretch to determine that he was a flop and the point was that it was a talented player. No one said that Alli was signed under AVB. And no one suggested that they didn't had their peak under Poch.

 

[charlenefan]

Eriksen was considered talented coming from Ajax and only played one season at Tottenham before Pochettino joined it's a bit of a stretch to determine that he was a flop and the point was that it was a talented player. No one said that Alli was signed under AVB. And no one suggested that they didn't had their peak under Poch.

You literally said neither Eriksen or Alli were considered flops under AVB, of course Alli wasn't as it wasnt under AVB he played

 

[JPRouve]

You literally said neither Eriksen or Alli were considered flops under AVB, of course Alli wasn't as it was under AVB he played

It was about Rose and Walker, it's the players that he labelled as flops.

 

[acnumber9]

I have no issue with your questions, they are relevant. But when I say that he helped these players achieve their potential and you conclude your post with "but he improved many of these players.", it reads like you either didn't read what I said or want me to say something else. And when it comes to Walker, not all players get the PFA youth player of the year, it's generally won by players that are talented.

But again I have no issue with us conversing and disagreeing, but here I simply stated that he helped talentend players acheive their potential which is true and to his credit. It gets a bit strange when people deny players talent.

Just emphasising the point that I agree that he’s not a miracle worker which is what you were rallying against.

PFA young player awards are generally won by English players. He somehow beat Aguero. In third place was Danny Welbeck. I wouldn’t place huge stock in it. Though I accept that you’ll take that above a strangers opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

Just emphasising the point that I agree that he’s not a miracle worker which is what you were rallying against.

PFA young player awards are generally won by English players. He somehow beat Aguero. In third place was Danny Welbeck. I wouldn’t place huge stock in it. Though I accept that you’ll take that above a strangers opinion.

I see, my bad. But it's won by talented players? Surely you are not going to say that Welbeck wasn't doing well for United that season? But it's fine, all their players were talentless until Pochettino joined.

 

[always_hoping]

He wants the job. Just look at him in the press conference, looks really tense. Wouldn't be surprised if he's feeling anxious that he might miss out on the job again.

I am surprised how much he adores Man Utd and the Premier League.

He definitely could risk missing out again though. Valverde or someone of that ilk could be successful.

Why does he want it? He's currently managing a star studded team that will or should stroll to a league title (important for him to improve his trophy CV) and are a Champions league contender alongside Chelsea, City, Bayern and Liverpool.

He's at a club that he played for and has no connection to United, I don't believe the paper talk he's already fallen out with PSG owners, they stuck by him after he somehow manage to let Lille win last seasons French league title and backed him in transfer window with a number of top signings.

 

[Josh 76]

Why does he want it? He's currently managing a star studded team that will or should stroll to a league title (important for him to improve his trophy CV) and are a Champions league contender alongside Chelsea, City, Bayern and Liverpool.

He's at a club that he played for and has no connection to United, I don't believe the paper talk he's already fallen out with PSG owners, they stuck by him after he somehow manage to let Lille win last seasons French league title and backed him in transfer window with a number of top signings.

Not sure if Ramos and Messi were his signings.

Tuchel was as much to blame for the title feck up as Poch, but no one mentions that. Also didn’t Tuchel “bottle” the CL final to Bayen, like Poch “bottled” the CL final to Liverpool.

It just goes to show, whatever happens in Paris, stays in Paris. A manager should not be judged by that circus over their!

 

[TMDaines]

Why does he want it? He's currently managing a star studded team that will or should stroll to a league title (important for him to improve his trophy CV) and are a Champions league contender alongside Chelsea, City, Bayern and Liverpool.

He's at a club that he played for and has no connection to United, I don't believe the paper talk he's already fallen out with PSG owners, they stuck by him after he somehow manage to let Lille win last seasons French league title and backed him in transfer window with a number of top signings.

The jobs aren’t like for like. The status of the clubs historically are not like for like. The domestic leagues the clubs reside in are not like for like.

 

[acnumber9]

I see, my bad. But it's won bad talented players? Surely you are not going to say that Welbeck wasn't doing well for United that season? But it's fine, all their players were talentess until Pochettino joined.

You’re just arguing a point I haven’t made now.

 

[Mickeza]

I’m disappointed he isn’t coming now but I seriously think he has a better chance of success coming in the summer after winning a title. It’ll be one less stick for everyone to beat him with any time we dare to draw a game. May also help in the dressing room.

 

[ti vu]

That’s just excuse after excuse for Tuchel.

If a manager comes in now and outperforms Ole till the end of the season, like feck I’d be absolving Ole of blame and putting the failed season on the new guy who will need at least his first three months to even get his coaching and ideas over to his new players.

That you cut Tuchel slack for a poor pre-season but Poch no slack for zero pre-season and zero slack for how long it takes any new manager to get his coaching and ideas into play with a new team is absolutely laughable.

Funny backward logic. There is a reason honey moon, new manager bounce is a thing in football. If it is not, nobody would ever sack managers mid season due to the fear of new manager without knowing the players, zero pre season would further having the team slipping! Everyone should stay with the assistant managers, having their DOF/ technical director manage the team until new seasons (do happen but much rarer). Playing week in week out through the season would eventually get player into form.

Please don't compare our situation to that of a PSG. You already mistook they for us with the head coach identifying targets in the last post. Expectation level, culture, quality gap to their playing field... PSG gave the new manager the first season to bed in, but they don't subscribe to the same long term + lengthy rebuild idealism. They have directors to make the call before the outgoing managers inflicting serious damages to the squad. They have their problem, and they do thing differently. That's it.

Without context of the circumstances, stats can be skewed and misleading. Ole only weeks ago, had a comparable win rate stats to Klopp's Liverpool on the same amount of games, no?

You never answer to my questions, which is the key context to PSG last season. I will answer them myself then.

CL final was 23 August 2020. PSG first Ligue 1 game was on 10 September 2020. Less than 3 weeks apart. Even if players took only a week vacation, what's left for pre season?(did not happen like that. Players had to have their vacation). When PSG played this game (their first of the season), it's match day 2 of the season for other teams. Meaning other teams had pre season, when PSG playing those final round of CL the previous seasons. Trivial info: This game was originally scheduled to play on 29 August 2020! https://www.ligue1.com/Articles/NEW...paris-saint-germain-postponed-to-10-september.

Tuchel only lost once to a relegation battlers during the whole of his time at PSG. That was Dijon. Maintained better ppg in first two seasons. Even during last season bad first half of the season, he didn't lose nor dropping points to relegation battlers. You may have acceptable excuses for defeats to more competitive teams. Losing twice in same (half of) season when you only need one point, that is inexcusable. It't not like Poch played those 2 teams in his first 2 games after taking over.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1463932/Live/France-Ligue-1-2020-2021-Lens-Paris-Saint-Germain

Look at the line up. The GK for the game only played that game for PSG and no more since! In the sequence of the following weeks, they continued to lose their some of their stars players at the same time due to different circumstances.

Team with ambition doesn't operate with the tunnel vision of being immediate better than your precessedor's low point is better. Meeting expectation is the key. Tuchel was not sacked due to the failure in term of performance or xPerformance/xResult. He got the boot because both sides turning insufferable for one another. Overtaking 1 point gap with whole second half of the season is possible. Tuchel, had he stayed would be expected to do so, no less. Tuchel didn't prove that he ever failed PSG expectation. Then his Chelsea exploit further compound the point about him being ever competent for PSG's CL ambition.

And don't you worry about Poch. The bosses at PSG did cut Poch some slack. They gave him first season with lower expectation. PSG losing multiple games to relegation battlers teams in the same season. That's abnormal and were the main culprit of missing out the French league title by one point; but still PSG bosses wrote off the "first" season for the new manager.

Now after a full pre season, half a season to assess the players, his idea doesn't come across to the players or. Tuchel, Emery, Blanc didn't have this kind of long period of bad performance, even in their worst. Of course, now PSG bosses, and fans are concerned, and last season slip up maybe forgiven, but not forgotten.

 

[BlueHaze]

People have short memories. This guy took Spurs above us most seasons making the top 4 consistently. He did it without the budget teams had around him and even did so well people just slagged Spurs for 0 trophies.

I don't think people have short memories, it's just the fact that he was there for so long and ended up with the part in bold. This is probably what concerns most people about him incluiding myself because at the end of the day we want someone capable of winning things, not just consistently finish top 4, I think we can all agree on that.

 

[OsloRed]

Why does he want it? He's currently managing a star studded team that will or should stroll to a league title (important for him to improve his trophy CV) and are a Champions league contender alongside Chelsea, City, Bayern and Liverpool.

He's at a club that he played for and has no connection to United, I don't believe the paper talk he's already fallen out with PSG owners, they stuck by him after he somehow manage to let Lille win last seasons French league title and backed him in transfer window with a number of top signings.

I just want to point out that one of the reasons he might want to leave is that his family is living in London. He is well known to be a family man, and at the moment he is saying in a hotel in Paris.

 

[Josh 76]

I don't think people have short memories, it's just the fact that he was there for so long and ended up with the part in bold. This is probably what concerns most people about him incluiding myself because at the end of the day we want someone capable of winning things, not just consistently finish top 4, I think we can all agree on that.

He never took the domestic cups seriously, unlike Mourhino. That may have a lot to do with it. I’m sure he could have won a league cup if he really wanted to.

 

[BlueHaze]

He never took the domestic cups seriously, unlike Mourhino. That may have a lot to do with it. I’m sure he could have won a league cup if he really wanted to.

Probably due to squad depth then. They did have a solid first 11 but not many alternatives on the bench.

 

[Caesar2290]

It's weird, especially considering Pochettino took a Spurs-team not much stronger than this Ajax-team, to a CL-final.

Not much stronger

A team consisting of peak Harry Kane, Verthoghen, Vermalen, Lloris, Eriksen is inferior to PL flop Haller, Blind, 37 year old Pasaveer and a couple of academy graduates. You should run for politics mate

If anything this should be a plus on Ten Hag as he has created 2 CL competent teams with has beens and academy graduates.


Thing is: I don't care about his CL final, it's like the cherry on the cake. Plenty of managers got to the CL final: Grant, Deschamps, Di Mateo, etc His cake is drilling his team to play attacking football that yields results without spending half a billion pounds like a certain Guardiola. That is the selling point of Ten Hag for me. Also the man has that winner mentality, the X factor if you will something that all elite managers have and something I've yet to see Poch demonstrate.

 

[Cloud7]

I just want to point out that one of the reasons he might want to leave is that his family is living in London. He is well known to be a family man, and at the moment he is saying in a hotel in Paris.

The Argentine Mourinho

 

[always_hoping]

Not sure if Ramos and Messi were his signings.

Tuchel was as much to blame for the title feck up as Poch, but no one mentions that. Also didn’t Tuchel “bottle” the CL final to Bayen, like Poch “bottled” the CL final to Liverpool.

It just goes to show, whatever happens in Paris, stays in Paris. A manager should not be judged by that circus over their!

If he comes to United he better get use to signings that aren't his own.

Towards the end of the season they played Lille at home whereby a draw would have been enough to secure the title, they lost without scoring.

I just want to point out that one of the reasons he might want to leave is that his family is living in London. He is well known to be a family man, and at the moment he is saying in a hotel in Paris.

London to Paris is roughly a 2 and half hour trip on the train. London to Manchester is a 4 hour drive.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Funny backward logic. There is a reason honey moon, new manager bounce is a thing in football. If it is not, nobody would ever sack managers mid season due to the fear of new manager without knowing the players, zero pre season would further having the team slipping! Everyone should stay with the assistant managers, having their DOF/ technical director manage the team until new seasons (do happen but much rarer). Playing week in week out through the season would eventually get player into form.

Imagine writing that long a post and getting it so fecking wrong

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-england-managers-idUKKBN1EF1NM

https://socceranalytics.substack.com/p/is-the-new-manager-bounce-really

Tuchel was never at a ”low”, his low early in the season, not when he was fired which was for different reasons, so to expect any bounce after no real low is so wrong it’s untrue.

Basically United can expect a bounce now for the next eight games or so on average due to the fact that we are on such a low. If West Ham or Liverpool were to sack their manager due to a falling out at boardroom level now, they certainly wouldn’t be expecting any “bounce”.

It’s soccernomics pal, there’s shit losds of research into this stuff. But please, babble and rant on at your heart’s content.

 

[Amir]

If he comes to United he better get use to signings that aren't his own.

Not really, no. Nowhere near a club like PSG.

 

[OsloRed]

If he comes to United he better get use to signings that aren't his own.

Towards the end of the season they played Lille at home whereby a draw would have been enough to secure the title, they lost without scoring.

London to Paris is roughly a 2 and half hour trip on the train. London to Manchester is a 4 hour drive.

It is a lot easier to move as a family within one county than between two, to be fair. If his family has settled in England I can see why he seemingly wants to return.

And anyway, I keep hearing that the French league is a joke and that the PL is the pinnacle of human endeavour, so that might be a reason.

 

[ti vu]

Imagine writing that long a post and getting it so fecking wrong

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-england-managers-idUKKBN1EF1NM

https://socceranalytics.substack.com/p/is-the-new-manager-bounce-really

Tuchel was never at a ”low”, he was fired for different reasons, so to expect any bounce after no real low is so wrong it’s untrue.

Basically United can expect a bounce now for the next eight games or so on average due to the fact that we are on such a low. If West Ham or Liverpool were to sack their manager due to a falling out now, they certainly wouldn’t be expecting any “bounce”.

Conclusive paragraph from the article of your preferred sort of preference:

"All this is to say I think simply looking at large, multi-team studies that clearly show regression to say there is no such thing as a new manager bounce full stop is, perhaps, a little naive. Ultimately, however, the new manager bounce phenomenon is pointless, a blip, a curiosity. Teams should hire managers for the long-term, with a clear plan in place for how they will improve and sustain performances relative to the quality of the squad. The jury’s out whether Mourinho can do with until Luis Campos decides if he wants to join the party, but for now—bounce baby bounce."

You can't direct look at context, but rely on preference. I rest my case. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

.

Now after a full pre season, half a season to assess the players, his idea doesn't come across to the players or. Tuchel, Emery, Blanc didn't have this kind of long period of bad performance, even in their worst. Of course, now PSG bosses, and fans are concerned, and last season slip up maybe forgiven, but not forgotten.

Yet he is currently averaging a better points per game tally than Tuchel in his best season and he’s on course for a 100 point league season. And that’s in a team where is barely even had use of Messi. Does anyone doubt that the Tuchel team and squad of 18/19 was much better and more balanced than this one?

For more context, his current points per game rate this season is PSGs best ever in their history points per game rate, if he can keep it up for the season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Conclusive paragraph from the article of your preferred sort of preference:

"All this is to say I think simply looking at large, multi-team studies that clearly show regression to say there is no such thing as a new manager bounce full stop is, perhaps, a little naive. Ultimately, however, the new manager bounce phenomenon is pointless, a blip, a curiosity. Teams should hire managers for the long-term, with a clear plan in place for how they will improve and sustain performances relative to the quality of the squad. The jury’s out whether Mourinho can do with until Luis Campos decides if he wants to join the party, but for now—bounce baby bounce."

You can't direct look at context, but rely on preference. I rest my case. Let's agree to disagree.

Can’t you read feck me?? It basically tells you the only reason for any kind of bounce is that teams tend to sack their managers on a low? Did PSG sack TT at a low or did they sack him because of a falling out?

 

[Amadaeus]

I knew he won’t be coming mid season as I stated before. Most likely end of season, or when they get knocked out of the champions league.

Todays match will be tough without Verrati, but Pochettino has climbed bigger obstacles before

 

[always_hoping]

Not really, no. Nowhere near a club like PSG.

It's even worse at United as at least at PSG clued in football men are over transfers and player contracts.

It is a lot easier to move as a family within one county than between two, to be fair. If his family has settled in England I can see why he seemingly wants to return.

And anyway, I keep hearing that the French league is a joke and that the PL is the pinnacle of human endeavour, so that might be a reason.

My point is Paris isn't a million miles away from his family. If we was to become United manager an edcuated guess would say he'll do as Mourinho did, stay in a Manchester Hotel.

 

[Gandalf]

If PSG get battered by City today he might be available

But if City batter PSG I do not want him

This is confusing, I need to lie down

 

[GMoore23]

Man City are about to slaughter PSG and he'll be our new manager on Monday.

Edit:
Didn't realise they're without Foden, DeBruyne and Grealish.
Not so sure now.

 

[JPRouve]

You’re just arguing a point I haven’t made now.

But that's the point that I was making in the post you initially argued against. It comes back to what I told you in the following post and why I asked about what I was supposed to say differently in a later post.

I'm not talking about the team he inherited, I'm talking about his best team which is why I said that he helped them but he didn't do it with poor players. The likes of Lloris, Vertonghen, Adelrweireld, Eriksen, Walker, Dembélé, Wanyama, Alli, Kane or Son were rated without him and while he should be credited for helping them achieve their potential, the way people talk about them you would think that it was a bunch of talenteless players that were only helped by Pochettino.

I try to be balanced and give him his credit while also recognizing that he was given some good material to work with and people just keep adding some hyperbolic statements.

 

[acnumber9]

But that's the point that I was making in the post you initially argued against. It comes back to what I told you in the following post and why I asked about what I was supposed to say differently in a later post.

And I disagree that they were as talented as you’re making out. Ultimately it comes down to varying degrees that we won’t agree on. I never said they were all talentless so you’ve created an argument to get angry about.

 

[Amir]

It's even worse at United as at least at PSG clued in football men are over transfers and player contracts.

Do you honestly think we've been signings players without the manager's wanting them?

 

[JPRouve]

And I disagree that they were as talented as you’re making out. Ultimately it comes down to varying degrees that we won’t agree on. I never said they were all talentless so you’ve created an argument to get angry about.

Exactly. I see where you are coming from and I don't have an issue with your view, I have an issue with more extreme opinions.

And I'm not angry, yet.

 

[2 man midfield]

I’ve noticed PSG’s forwards are scoring at a reduced rate this season. Neymar has 3 goals in 12, Mbappe 7 in 16, Messi 4 in 9, Icardi 3 in 14, Di Maria 2 in 9...

They all had much better stats last season, is there any reason for this drop off?

 

[Wilt]

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He’ll want more than that to go there

 

[AjaxCunian]

I’ve noticed PSG’s forwards are scoring at a reduced rate this season. Neymar has 3 goals in 12, Mbappe 7 in 16, Messi 4 in 9, Icardi 3 in 14, Di Maria 2 in 9...

They all had much better stats last season, is there any reason for this drop off?

Pochettino probably largely. Their attacking play is very poor.

 

[glazed]

I honestly think we might be waiting to see how the game tonight ends and see how things unfold for Pochettino and PSG. A bad result + the weight of speculation might just tilt things for Leonardo and PSG owners.

Best result for us is if PSG lose and qualify anyway. Which is looking quite likely.