David Moyes West Ham Manager (Again) | European Champion

[nuanced]

You can do a hard disagree as much as you want, doesn't really change the reality here. Fact is we spent the entire summer chasing after players Moyes wanted, problem was that they weren't interested but Moyes still wanted us to push for them.

“I wanted Gareth Bale to be my first signing at Manchester United. But it was already down the road a bit with Real Madrid. I tried to hijack it. I tried to get him. Manchester United offered more money than Real Madrid. They offered more money to the player. “We did everything we could to try and get the player. We even had a helicopter at the training ground to take him and bring him back. We thought we had a chance. But he chose real Madrid and he made a brilliant decision because he went on to win four Champions Leagues. He’s had a brilliant career.”

He also insisted on waiting as long as possible with Fabregas, as he might decide to join us.

"The other one was Cesc Fabregas, who we thought we would get right up until the last minute," Moyes said.

So we were trying to sign Baines, Fellaini, Fabregas and Bale, offering significant fees for the last two, we signed Fellaini and then Mata for a record fee. The following summer under LVG we spent the odd £180mill, but apparantly you reckon we couldn't have forked out the fee for Fellaini at any time during that summer That's some hard fecking fantastic imagination that.

Never said there wasn't enough money to buy Fellaini - United did buy him eventually, didn't they. Chasing Bale and Cesc is fine, but I doubt Moyes didn't have any backup targets. Splurging on Fellaini on the last day suggests to me they were trying to sign some other midfielder throughout the summer.

I wouldn't focus too much on the big names being bandied about, if the management isn't willing to pay the market rate for the players. The summers prior to that United were interested in signing players like Hazard and Silva. It was Fergie chasing them, so there isn't the excuse of players not wanting to play for the manager. The reason why the midfield was in such a poor shape, despite the need for proper midfield signings for multiple summers prior to that was due to the sustained under-investment.

Continuing to be the case during Van Gaals time, christ. We spent fecking £320mill over two seasons bringing in the players that Van Gaal wanted.

Yeah, let's not ignore the 132mil pounds of outgoings: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

His imaginary list of players he wanted is a fantastic hindsight list, but if you spend 5 minutes looking at the players he mentions and what their situation was at the time, it's fairly easy to see he's full of shit. People just tend to gobble it up, like you do.

I'd expect the world's biggest club™ being able to attract top talent like Ramos, and Muller. But signing players of this ilk from other top clubs is never easy, so I'd agree that they were mostly pipe-dreams.

I see no reason why LVG wanting to sign players like Lewa (while at Dortmund), Hummels, Mane, Kante should be *imaginary*. I unfortunately don't happen to work in the United transfer department like you, so I just have to gobble up whatever explanations managers give for their failures, and connect the dots based on the way the management has conducted itself over the years.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't remember the details but at the time it was reported that United wanted both Baines and Fellaini - and part of the reason for the Fellaini business ending up as a clusterfeck was that we insisted on a double deal for the pair of them up until the last minute.

 

[UncleBob]

Never said there wasn't enough money to buy Fellaini - United did buy him eventually, didn't they. Chasing Bale and Cesc is fine, but I doubt Moyes didn't have any backup targets. Splurging on Fellaini on the last day suggests to me they were trying to sign some other midfielder throughout the summer.

You literally wrote "hard disagree" to my point that it was never about the price, and you went on about underinvestment, no you're claiming that you've never disagreed that the money was available all summer.

I wouldn't focus too much on the big names being bandied about, if the management isn't willing to pay the market rate for the players. The summers prior to that United were interested in signing players like Hazard and Silva. It was Fergie chasing them, so there isn't the excuse of players not wanting to play for the manager. The reason why the midfield was in such a poor shape, despite the need for proper midfield signings for multiple summers prior to that was due to the sustained under-investment.

Moyes is literally quoted on us offering more for Bale than Real Madrid, but somehow you've decided we weren't willing to pay market rate, great. Fergie was completely against the agent fee involved in the deal for Hazard, shame he didn't have Jorge Mendes as Fergie would've happily signed off on doubling that...We were never close to signing Silva.

Yeah, let's not ignore the 132mil pounds of outgoings: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

Who has said anything about ignoring anything?

I'd expect the world's biggest club™ being able to attract top talent like Ramos, and Muller. But signing players of this ilk from other top clubs is never easy, so I'd agree that they were mostly pipe-dreams.

I see no reason why LVG wanting to sign players like Lewa (while at Dortmund), Hummels, Mane, Kante should be *imaginary*. I unfortunately don't happen to work in the United transfer department like you, so I just have to gobble up whatever explanations managers give for their failures, and connect the dots based on the way the management has conducted itself over the years.

Jesus fecking christ, there really is no hope.

Van Gaal joined us in 2014, may. Lewandowski agreed a deal in principle to join Bayern in 2013, he signed a 5 year contract with them in January 2014. How the feck does that one work out then

We tried, and failed, to sign Hummels and Muller. Bayern refused to entertain the idea of selling Muller and Hummels always wanted to go to Bayern.

Mane didn't want to join us.

Kante was a complete and utter unknown to world football when Van Gaal joined us, it would've been piss easy to sign him in 2014 and 2015, but there was never any fecking interest from anyone but Leicester. Van Gaals list is beyond stupid, he's more or less just mentioning anyone who has turned out to be a success and claimed those were the ones he wanted to sign but the club failed him.

 

[JPRouve]

You literally wrote "hard disagree" to my point that it was never about the price, and you went on about underinvestment, no you're claiming that you've never disagreed that the money was available all summer.



Moyes is literally quoted on us offering more for Bale than Real Madrid, but somehow you've decided we weren't willing to pay market rate, great. Fergie was completely against the agent fee involved in the deal for Hazard, shame he didn't have Jorge Mendes as Fergie would've happily signed off on doubling that...We were never close to signing Silva.



Who has said anything about ignoring anything?





Jesus fecking christ, there really is no hope.

Van Gaal joined us in 2014, may. Lewandowski agreed a deal in principle to join Bayern in 2013, he signed a 5 year contract with them in January 2014. How the feck does that one work out then

We tried, and failed, to sign Hummels and Muller. Bayern refused to entertain the idea of selling Muller and Hummels always wanted to go to Bayern.

Mane didn't want to join us.

Kante was a complete and utter unknown to world football when Van Gaal joined us, it would've been piss easy to sign him in 2014 and 2015, but there was never any fecking interest from anyone but Leicester. Van Gaals list is beyond stupid, he's more or less just mentioning anyone who has turned out to be a success and claimed those were the ones he wanted to sign but the club failed him.

There was interest from french clubs like Lyon and Marseille.

 

[UncleBob]

There was interest from french clubs like Lyon and Marseille.

Wouldn't surprise me that some french clubs were interested, but it hardly changes the point ref Van Gaal supposedly wanting us to sign him.

 

[JPRouve]

Wouldn't surprise me that some french clubs were interested, but it hardly changes the point ref Van Gaal supposedly wanting us to sign him.

True but Kanté wasn't unknown or unwanted. IIRC the first links to United were in 2016, maybe Van Gaal wanted him for summer 2016 but I don't remember a link before that. Also Kanté wanted to move to London if I'm not mistaken.

 

[::sonny::]

The chosen one

 

[nuanced]

You literally wrote "hard disagree" to my point that it was never about the price, and you went on about underinvestment, no you're claiming that you've never disagreed that the money was available all summer.

It sounds like you were talking specifically about Fellaini in that bolded bit. My point was that I find it hard to believe Moyes didn't have any backup midfielders if Cesc/Thiago didn't go through. Fellaini was his last card, and the only reason he had to sign him was because of United's failure to sign other midfielders. United were heavily linked with Strootman who was on the market that summer. Unless you think Roma is an attractive destination than being first teamer at United, I'm going to assume failure from Woodward in this matter.

Not going to respond to the rest of your post, since I don't work in the United transfer dept. You seem to selectively pick quotes from managers and the media as per your convenience. Southampton player Mane not wanting to join United who didn't have a first choice left winger

 

[UncleBob]

It sounds like you were talking specifically about Fellaini in that bolded bit. My point was that I find it hard to believe Moyes didn't have any backup midfielders if Cesc/Thiago didn't go through. Fellaini was his last card, and the only reason he had to sign him was because of United's failure to sign other midfielders. United were heavily linked with Strootman who was on the market that summer. Unless you think Roma is an attractive destination than being first teamer at United, I'm going to assume failure from Woodward in this matter.

Not going to respond to the rest of your post, since I don't work in the United transfer dept. You seem to selectively pick quotes from managers and the media as per your convenience. Southampton player Mane not wanting to join United who didn't have a first choice left winger

but who gives a feck what you find hard to believe, you can't even get the basics right. So what we were heavily linked with Strootman, he's quoted again and again saying that he never talked to us, that as always there's speculation but there was never anything happening. We were also heavily linked with Gaitain for fecks sake, without there being nothing in it.

Mane is also quoted on the subject:

“So I was coming, I was there and I spoke with the boss who was there before [Louis van Gaal].

“They made an offer, but in the same week, [Jurgen] Klopp called me.

“He said: ‘I think it’s the right club. The right coach for you, and I think it’s better that you go to Liverpool’.

 

[Samid]

1 win in 6. His fans have gone quiet.

 

[Lecland07]

1 win in 6. His fans have gone quiet.

Zouma is a big loss, to be fair. Injuries are going to hit a team like West Ham a lot harder than the bigger sides.

In the end, though, that run of six games has Man City, Arsenal, and Chelsea in it. 5/18 is not the best, but I bet most people would predict losses against those three.

 

[Cloud7]

Lego Pep beats Lego Gollum

 

[Dancfc]

1 win in 6. His fans have gone quiet.

I think he's still regarded as doing a great job despite that but it also shows why he never made the jump to the top end of the table successfully, I don't think it's a coincidence his poor run has started since the top 4 hype really kicked in. Likewise last season, as soon as there was talk over them being favourites (due to having the kindest run in) the results started going south.

He can do a genuinely great job when nothing higher than getting by is expected of him, but as soon as the expectations rise he can't handle it. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if they hit a rut now but pick up form once they're in the rear view mirror of top 4.

 

[arthurka]

They have a very very limited group. They don't have another striker then Antonio. Their options are very limited. Still think he has done an amazing job there.

 

[Dominos]

I think he's still regarded as doing a great job despite that but it also shows why he never made the jump to the top end of the table successfully, I don't think it's a coincidence his poor run has started since the top 4 hype really kicked in. Likewise last season, as soon as there was talk over them being favourites (due to having the kindest run in) the results started going south.

He can do a genuinely great job when nothing higher than getting by is expected of him, but as soon as the expectations rise he can't handle it. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if they hit a rut now but pick up form once they're in the rear view mirror of top 4.

I'd be interested to hear what this actually means in reality.

What is he doing different when top 4 is not being talked about vs when top 4 is being talked about? He's presumably doing something right when the expectations are low, and he starts doing everything wrong when the expectations are high? What specifically is he meant to be doing that's causing results to be poor during this period that he wasn't doing before?

It seems unlikely to me that one day he's doing great coaching sessions, great team talks, making great tactical decisions, perfect team selections, perfect use of subs, perfect man management because expectations are low. And then all of a sudden he gets wind that the media are hyping West Ham as candidates for top 4 and he starts doing poor training sessions, shite team talks, stupid tactical decisions, poor team selections, and bad man management.

It seems much more likely that West Ham's squad are nowhere near good enough to finish top 4 realistically and Moyes is a decent but not great manager. And results in a 38 game season naturally fluctuate massively with these upper-midtable teams. I don't think it's any more complicated than that. Sometimes teams have good starts to the season and it evens out over 38 games because they were never that good to begin with. And it happens the other way round where teams have poor starts to the season but finish strongly.

The bizarre thing to me is if you start the season well and finish 6th you're a failure, but if you start the season poorly and finish 6th you'll be rated a lot higher.

There's a reason we have a league format over a decent sample size like 38 games, and don't hand out league titles for short runs of good form. There's something called variance. Some teams have their positive variance early in the season and some have it later in the season. If you have your positive variance early in the season you're automatically a "bottler".

 

[Dancfc]

I'd be interested to hear what this actually means in reality.

What is he doing different when top 4 is not being talked about vs when top 4 is being talked about? He's presumably doing something right when the expectations are low, and he starts doing everything wrong when the expectations are high? What specifically is he meant to be doing that's causing results to be poor during this period that he wasn't doing before?

Why does Pep always smash it domestically but regularly come unstuck in UCL ties teams of City's quality should be winning comfortably? Why does Conte have such an amazing league record but come unstuck in cup competitions? Why did Wenger's Arsenal (2006-2017) play like a team possessed with top 4 on the line but look like Keegan's Newcastle when it was the title to play for? Why could Pochettino's Spurs look incredible but then turn to jelly with the trophies in sight? Why can't Ancelotti dominate leagues the way Pep, prime Mou and Fergie do/did? We don't know the exact reason for it but there's enough sample size to know all of the above happens/happened.

I mean he obviously doesn't go in and deliberately does things different but the pressure with expectations/attention is a different ball game to when you're largely going under the radar. Maybe he overthinks his tactics or shows nerves a lot more when the expectations grow, maybe he feels more pressure into going for three points as opposed to taking one and running which doesn't suit his managerial style as much, maybe it's something else, but the sample size through his career shows it's clearly there as with those examples above.

I didn't even mean it as a critisism per se, he's got his niche and he's very good at what he does, like with players managers have a natural level too.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

0 win away vs PL top 4 in 50 odds games when he came to us.

It’s not a surprise that he folded when going away to Arsenal (pitiful as they are nowadays), when you are playing not to win, more often than not you will lose. And it’s also why his mentality isn’t cut out for a top club, regardless of what his fans say.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

During his time at Everton, I remember their fans being frustrated with how tamely they lost to Liverpool in their 2012 FA Cup semi-final, especially considering that was a relatively weak Liverpool team (although admittedly one that had already beaten Chelsea, City and Utd in the domestic cups that season) and Everton went into that match in strong form themselves. They didn't really threaten Liverpool much during that match.

I think that match encapsulated the fact that while Moyes was of course a very good manager (many aspiring / actual managers could only dream of coming remotely close to his record), there was a clear and fixed ceiling.

After the Joleon Lescott transfer saga during the summer of 2009, with City's manager at the time Hughes acting like an idiot and calling Everton a small club, his Everton team always seemed extra amped up when they faced City, continually beating them at Goodison, which was funny.

 

[stevoc]

What I've learned in this thread is when West Ham are doing good it's because of David Moyes.

But when West Ham are doing badly it's not because of Moyes it's down to the limitations of his players/squad.

 

[Redlyn]

What I've learned in this thread is when West Ham are doing good it's because of David Moyes.

But when West Ham are doing badly it's not because of Moyes it's down to the limitations of his players/squad.

So the complete opposite of Ole then.

 

[stevoc]

So the complete opposite of Ole then.

Yep exactly when United did well over the last 3 years it was down to individual uncoached brilliance, when we did poorly it was Ole's fault apparently.

 

[AussieDevil]

I'd be interested to hear what this actually means in reality.

What is he doing different when top 4 is not being talked about vs when top 4 is being talked about? He's presumably doing something right when the expectations are low, and he starts doing everything wrong when the expectations are high? What specifically is he meant to be doing that's causing results to be poor during this period that he wasn't doing before?

It seems unlikely to me that one day he's doing great coaching sessions, great team talks, making great tactical decisions, perfect team selections, perfect use of subs, perfect man management because expectations are low. And then all of a sudden he gets wind that the media are hyping West Ham as candidates for top 4 and he starts doing poor training sessions, shite team talks, stupid tactical decisions, poor team selections, and bad man management.

It seems much more likely that West Ham's squad are nowhere near good enough to finish top 4 realistically and Moyes is a decent but not great manager. And results in a 38 game season naturally fluctuate massively with these upper-midtable teams. I don't think it's any more complicated than that. Sometimes teams have good starts to the season and it evens out over 38 games because they were never that good to begin with. And it happens the other way round where teams have poor starts to the season but finish strongly.

The bizarre thing to me is if you start the season well and finish 6th you're a failure, but if you start the season poorly and finish 6th you'll be rated a lot higher.

There's a reason we have a league format over a decent sample size like 38 games, and don't hand out league titles for short runs of good form. There's something called variance. Some teams have their positive variance early in the season and some have it later in the season. If you have your positive variance early in the season you're automatically a "bottler".

I don’t think it’s Moyes changing his style when the hype arrives, but more so the opposition get more stuck in when they’re facing a team in form. When that happens its up to the manager to figure it out.

Or he might just not know how to coach his side back into form after consecutive losses. A 6-7 game run of bad form is all it takes to be out of contention for top 4 and that’s likely been his issue at both Everton and West Ham.

 

[VP89]

What I've learned in this thread is when West Ham are doing good it's because of David Moyes.

But when West Ham are doing badly it's not because of Moyes it's down to the limitations of his players/squad.

If you saw yesterdays game they weren't doing badly. They actually had Arsenal penned back for a period of time with 10 men, from a pen that wasn't and a red that definitely wasn't.

They are a good team even if they aren't overperforming. David Moyes deserves credit today as much as he did a couple weeks ago.

 

[stevoc]

If you saw yesterdays game they weren't doing badly. They actually had Arsenal penned back for a period of time with 10 men, from a pen that wasn't and a red that definitely wasn't.

They are a good team even if they aren't overperforming. David Moyes deserves credit today as much as he did a couple weeks ago.

He does and my post wasn't a criticism of Moyes, it was highlighting one of the nonsense narratives that always seem to pop up around certain Managers.

I've always been of the opinion that managers deserve credit when their team is doing well but also when their team is doing badly.

 

[Dominos]

Why does Pep always smash it domestically but regularly come unstuck in UCL ties teams of City's quality should be winning comfortably? Why does Conte have such an amazing league record but come unstuck in cup competitions? Why did Wenger's Arsenal (2006-2017) play like a team possessed with top 4 on the line but look like Keegan's Newcastle when it was the title to play for? Why could Pochettino's Spurs look incredible but then turn to jelly with the trophies in sight? Why can't Ancelotti dominate leagues the way Pep, prime Mou and Fergie do/did? We don't know the exact reason for it but there's enough sample size to know all of the above happens/happened.

I mean he obviously doesn't go in and deliberately does things different but the pressure with expectations/attention is a different ball game to when you're largely going under the radar. Maybe he overthinks his tactics or shows nerves a lot more when the expectations grow, maybe he feels more pressure into going for three points as opposed to taking one and running which doesn't suit his managerial style as much, maybe it's something else, but the sample size through his career shows it's clearly there as with those examples above.

I didn't even mean it as a critisism per se, he's got his niche and he's very good at what he does, like with players managers have a natural level too.

Most managers win more league titles than they do champions leagues. Pep lost 6 league games last season - the good thing for him is over 38 games he can make up for it in the other matches. In a cup competition, if you have 1 bad game then that's you done. He's also facing higher quality opposition more consistently in the CL knockouts compared to racking up wins against lower quality teams in the premier league. As for why he hasn't won more CL's, probably he's too often got his tactics wrong against quality opposition who are actually good enough to punish any mistakes, and a little bit of bad variance could be a factor. Again, Conte faces higher quality competition in the champions league and maybe he's too often gotten his tactics wrong against high quality opposition who can punish mistakes, and bad variance could be a factor in a cup competition. It goes without saying cup competition against Europe's best teams with one-off knockout ties is a different proposition than racking up routine wins against lower and midtable domestic competition that's needed to win a league title.

Wenger's Arsenal in his latter years were a top 4 team that weren't realistically good enough to win a title over 38 games. That's why. They had a hint of a title race maybe once or twice if we're generous but were never in a dominant position to ever win a title, the variance evened itself over the course of 38 games and they finished in a position that reflected the quality of their squad - usually 4th. Eventually their squad got so shit that they missed out on top 4 in his final year.

I mean, we're talking about West Ham bottling top 4 and we're 17 games into the season.. Surely you can see how absurd this is? Where did you expect West Ham to finish before the season started? Did you think they would be anywhere near Liverpool, City, Chelsea or United? The fact they had a purple patch for 10 games to start the season does not mean they have to go onto finish in the top 4, it's fecking West Ham. They are shit by elite team standards, we pay more for a couple of players than they have on their entire squad. They had a nice purple patch and now things are evening out the longer the season goes on. That's how a league season generally works, teams go through spells of good form and bad form throughout the season, and at the end they generally finish in a position befitting of the quality of their squad. Sometimes the good form comes at the start of the season, sometimes at the end. Funnily enough his Everton team were notorious for being slow starters to the season and had to make up ground in the 2nd half of the season, so this idea that he's always having amazing opportunities to finish top 4 but throws it away at the end is just nonsense. In a 20 year career of course he'll have had a couple of seasons where his team greatly overachieved early in the season and variance brought them back to reality later in the year.

 

[Maniron]

West Ham are falling away. Thin squad, overplayed players, injuries to key players.

Biggest test yet for Moyes to try and keep their season on track. Best hope is to have a string of good performances in one of the cups

 

[DOTA]

I make it last 8 league games is 5 points from 1 win, 2 draws and 5 defeats. That win was against Chelsea.

Need to sort it out pretty quick if the European football they looked almost nailed on for is gonna happen.

 

[Idxomer]

Moyes is Sean Dyche with more resources.

 

[LawmanMan]

Moyes is Sean Dyche with more resources.

That's why West Ham have scored nine goals in their last three fixtures.....

 

[T_Model101]

45 games in a row now without an away win against any of the big 6 clubs.....

 

[LawmanMan]

45 games in a row now without an away win against any of the big 6 clubs.....

They won a few away this season.

 

[stevoc]

45 games in a row now without an away win against any of the big 6 clubs.....

Hardly surprising from a guy who managed the champions and didn't muster an away win vs the top 10 clubs that season.

 

[Maluco]

He is way too negative and he never seems to learn, despite his own teams looking very good going forward at times.

Far lesser teams have taken it to United over last few months, but he reverts to type every single time. It hasn’t bought him one win in 45 attempts.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

He is way too negative and he never seems to learn, despite his own teams looking very good going forward at times.

Far lesser teams have taken it to United over last few months, but he reverts to type every single time. It hasn’t bought him one win in 45 attempts.

We could be rock bottom of the table and he'd show up to Old Trafford and park the bus.

 

[Adebisi's Hat]

45 games in a row now without an away win against any of the big 6 clubs.....

Back in his Everton days it was similar, good against lower league outfits but never really could do it against the top teams. I think Moyes just doubts himself too much against the big clubs to really finish them off in games.

 

[AneRu]

He is way too negative and he never seems to learn, despite his own teams looking very good going forward at times.

Far lesser teams have taken it to United over last few months, but he reverts to type every single time. It hasn’t bought him one win in 45 attempts.

Let us off the hook when Rangnick brought in two extra forwards and left McT as the only defensively capable midfield player, if he had pushed his side up we were there for the taking but he let fear get the better of him and left with nothing at the end. You are right, he never learns.

 

[Sylar]

They had one shot on target against us
Has he not seen any other teams against us, especially at old Trafford

He basically came for a draw and a chance of a set piece or something. Weird

 

[adexkola]

45 games in a row now without an away win against any of the big 6 clubs.....

Dumb metric

 

[SuperiorXI]

They had one shot on target against us
Has he not seen any other teams against us, especially at old Trafford

He basically came for a draw and a chance of a set piece or something. Weird

In fairness we worked harder than I've seen us work this season, probably didn't expect that.

 

[Sylar]

In fairness we worked harder than I've seen us work this season, probably didn't expect that.

True but I wonder if it helped they were basically in their own half and we had less area to cover and run to recover
They didn't stretch us at all