Ah, in that case I apologise to @crossy1686 for misreading that
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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It's alright, it confused me at first too.I agree in terms of LvG is closer to what we want in terms of imposing a style. However, he went totally overboard with it. His style would have worked if he'd given the attacking players just a tad more freedom. The issue, and his downfall was wanting the players to play like robots. What I mean by this is they had to to do certain things in certain positions no matter what, and had to constantly think about what they should be doing when they got the ball, or where someone else on the pitch was. This sounds great in black and white, but you need to retain some instinctual play. Only allowing 3 attackers to deviate from the rigid set of instructions and then playing players out of position was his downfall tactically. I remember Herrera actually got told off for scoring a goal, because in LvG's opinion he should never have been there to receive the ball, let alone score. Like I said, when you're reprimanding players for scoring then the control freak aspect of football management has gone too far. I think if his positional instructions and general instructions had been a little more template like and not "here you must do this" and "here you must do this" he would have had much more success. He seemed to do well against the top sides, but against the mid table/lower teams we got routinely beaten when we shouldn't have.
Under Moyes we tried to make it difficult for other team. Under LVG we were so boring that usually we would end up with 1 or 2 shot on target whole match. Under Jose, park the double decker bus even against small team. Under Ole, counter attacking football with the players look like stranger to each other.
And now, under an interim manager Rangnick, we play the best football. We have improved in term of attacking, work rate, pressing and most importantly play like a team. We missed many sitters and our attacking game becoming more and more interesting. If our players can finish, we would probably now sitting at the 3rd place in front of Chelsea.
What's there to complain?
And now, under an interim manager Rangnick, we play the best football. We have improved in term of attacking, work rate, pressing and most importantly play like a team. We missed many sitters and our attacking game becoming more and more interesting. If our players can finish, we would probably now sitting at the 3rd place in front of Chelsea.
What's there to complain?
Yeah LvG was just too idealistic and married to his ideas of positional and possession football. That being said his time with United could have become a great foundation for future managers to build on. While his Bayern tenure was somewhat more successful, he faced a lot of the same criticism he did at United, e.g.at times too rigid football with slow passing and too predictable. However he did have some great players who took to his ideas, and on top of that arguably the best pair of wingers in the game with Ribery and Robben who were capable of shaking up that positional rigidity and create chances.
Bayern's real rise to success came with Heynckes afterwards who didn't entirely abandon van Gaal's ideas, but enhanced that possession style with the emerging high-pressing football that Klopp popularised with Dortmund. That combination of players coached in positional awareness and high possession football with aggressive pressing and quick transitions resulted in one of the most dominant and entertaining sides of the past decade. Then they signed Guardiola with his ideas of possession being even more extreme, but building on that same foundation again. While some see his tenure as a failure because ultimately he didn't manage to win the Champions League, he certainly had them playing some spectacular football along the way.
Anyway, perhaps LvG didn't succeed in laying that foundation to the same extent at United as he did with Bayern and had to go, but appointing Mourinho afterwards was probably not the right decision.
Now as for Rangnick, he might also not be the manager that will take United back to the very top, but in the absence of very convincing available candidates I could see him being able to lay that foundation next season in terms of a pressing system, which the next manager(s) could then combine with their ideas of possession/pressing. So in a way, a reverse LvG to Heynckes. Not saying the next United manager needs to be a high possession coach, but some more control is definitely something a top team needs, and it's rare to see a top team nowadays that doesn't have some kind of coordinated press, whether just moderate or very aggressive.
If he gets a result against Liverpool and City away, he might become a serious candidate for the full time job.
Which is not possible with the players we have. We have an out of form static forward line which is difficult against teams like Liverpool and City. We will lose both and it won't be Ralf's fault.
I’d actually be surprised if he starts Ronaldo against Liverpool.
Fred's interview was quite interesting saying he likes working with Rangnick but he'd prefer to have a permanent manager as it's hard to know what plan we're working towards long term.
I'd expect thats the case for most players. Just people in general don't like uncertainty, overall its not a recipe for success, its always nicer to know what the future holds.
In those circumstances, he might, but I actually think that by the summer, we will look back on the last couple of weeks' performances, our current position in the table and last weekend's result at Leeds, as the high-water mark of Rangnick's time in charge.
The fixture list has been very kind to us, but the 'easy' games are just about over and I'm expecting United to find themselves in sixth or seventh in the table by late April, once City/Liverpool get stuck in to us and Arsenal & Spurs play some of their millions of games in hand (Arsenal will be five points clear of us if they win theirs, even if we don't drop any points ourselves, which we certainly will).
I like Rangnick and I think he has had a positive effect on performances. He's also laying some decent foundations in terms of tactics and organised pressing, which the new guy (whoever he is) can build upon. But this little honeymoon period is about to come to a swift end (and with it, probably any talk of Ralf getting the job full-time). I hope I'm wrong!
I'm far less confident of Arsenal and Spurs getting points from their games in hand than of us getting a result against City and Liverpool.
Even if he beats both, he shouldn't be considered unless he's able to match their performance level.
Crystal Palace managed to beat City and Leicester managed to beat Liverpool so it's not like they're both unbeatable.
We played well vs Leeds, but they are one of the easiest wins for us.
The big test comes tonight. Can we win a big game or play well at least?
We did at times under Ole last two seasons.
The players are good enough, but is our manager?
The big test comes tonight. Can we win a big game or play well at least?
We did at times under Ole last two seasons.
The players are good enough, but is our manager?
Whats your point? He wasn't a good manager, I know. I didn't state otherwise.
Ralf's first real test?
I'd rather lose to City and Liverpool than have Rangnick given the permanent job. Those results would be just as damaging as that night in Paris that gave Ole free reign to do whatever the feck he wanted to for 3 years. We need to move Rangnick on after this summer. He is not the one to bring the glory days back to United.
Also, we were in the title race last season. City were 14 points ahead at this point last year, 17 points ahead right now. Many will look to last year as some sort of great achievement.
I like Rangnick and think he has done a great job so far. However, the only way I'd like to see him permanently appointed is if he wins the CL.
Complete incisive articulation of what matters. Bravo.
It’s not about points or wins. It’s about performances. If he can impose a possession based game on these sides so as to go somewhat toe to toe then he has done something no other Utd manager has since maybe early /mid Fergie or Van Gaal.(obviously not a pretty brand of football but he got the first part right)
This is different from the backs to the wall counter style that small sides use to varying effect when playing Pool and City-the same one Ole used against PSG etc.
The key component for me is that we conduct ourselves like a top side again. We impose our game on teams. If we can manage that, wins and trophies will look after themselves. I certainly wouldn’t discriminate if RR shows he can do that with this squad before the end of the season. So not contingent on winning things...contingent on implementing a consonant system with what is a very limited squad.
Ole was a different ball game altogether.
Good job he doesn’t play for Watford
I would be happy if he was pragmatic against city and Liverpool and we knicked a draw and a loss or two draws or whatever. Yes implement your style but the best managers know when to keep it tight and get it over the line. It’s all about winning and staying in matches and building confidence at the end of the day. No point pressing high up and getting ripped apart either if the players aren’t ready. Ralf will know this.
Exactly, I'm sure we could get a dinosaur like Allardyce or Pulis to set us up to be hard to beat and nick wins but that's not what we want is it?
How we play is what's important as on any given day anyone can beat anyone which is why we watch.
If we're extremely competitive for 90 minutes against Liverpool but lose to a late Salah wondergoal I'd be far more inclined to give him the job than if we get battered for 90 minutes with De Gea making 20 world class saves and winning by nicking a couple of goals on the counter.
This is one of the reasons I’m wary of Poch. He strikes me as closer to a “how do we neutralise the opponents threat” kind of manager as opposed to ETH who would appear to be more definitive in how he wants his team to play. (Accepted that ETH has an easier time doing that consistently in the Erdevisie)
His first big test yes. We have not played a top side in PL yet at Champions league level.
West Ham and Wolves games who are the strongest none top 6 sides we played against and we struggled to create against them, but defended well.
We are predicted by bookies to win this, but not really challenge for CL. Hope we prove everyone wrong in a good way.
Our squad is good enough to challenge. The only doubt is if Ronaldo is good enough against the big sides anymore. We could need to drop him for better pressing and movement. Maybe he step up in CL though. I think he can.
The point is there's nothing special about being dominant in 3 games over the course of 2 years. This period is ridiculously overrated.
What United fan would wish this in bold? Even if we beat City and Liverpool, he would not be given the permanent job. We would interview all possible candidates and then decide. This would not he an emotional hire like Ole, it will be based on performance as well as results. Precisely because of the experience with Ole's appointment.
Why is there so much hand-wringing on the Caf about counter-attacking football? It’s like there’s this belief that counter-attacking football is somehow inferior to tiki-taka, possession-based football.
If you looked at the CL winners over the last 20 years, I would guess that over half were counter-attacking sides. Basically, Real, United, Chelsea, AC Milan, Porto and Inter all used a counter attacking philosophy to win the biggest prize in football. So, from a results perspective, counter attacking football probably produces more trophies than possession based football.
I agree that most of these sides could play both possession and counter attacking, but if you really watch the latter stages of the CL, you’ll find that the teams that eventually win revert to counter attacking style.
Personally, I love to watch vintage SAF teams with Ronaldo and Rooney on the break, eviscerating teams by breaking quickly before the defense is set. The CL semifinal vs AC Milan, with Kaka starting and finishing the counters with ruthless skill and efficiency.
now, the high press has added an element to win the ball back quickly, high up the pitch, but the concept is the same: attack quickly after the possession turnover.
I give credit to Ralf for ushering in an era of counter press (which was actually a much earlier innovation that he more or less copied from other managers, specifically Arrigo Sacchi and the Milan sides of the late 80s) and adding elements/training to emphasize. However, results speak louder than “philosophy” in my mind, and no matter what type of style we end up playing, I’ll be happier to win trophies as a counter attacking team, than become an Arsenal, perennial also-ran who wins nothing.
‘My two cents…
THere is nothing wrong with counter attacking, its when that is all you have it becomes a problem. Ole could lift the team to beat a big team by playing on the break, but we had absolutely nothing when confronted with the low block for mid table teams. The reality is that the big 5 or 6 teams will typically dominate possession, so the question become what you can do with it when you have it. THe complete absence of coaching and game management was clear during the Ole period, while LVG took the opposite extreme. I like Ralf but am not trying too hard to defend him, though your comment about copying earlier manager is a general one for life. There are few truly 'new' ideas in the world, but taking existing ones and making them better is a skill.
Let us know when you choose to start supporting United again.
Old SAF teams had Scholes, Carrick, Ince and Roy fecking Keane in the middle of the park. We could and did play on the counter but there was also technique in abundance and clever possession play and dictating the tempo of games.
What I didn't like about Ole's counter attack is that it seemed very limited and a lot of it was pinging a ball over the top to Rashford/other forward who could run into space behind. What Ralf seems to have improved is the general cohesion and shape of the team. It's not 'there' yet and the attack needs to get better but I can see good signs for us turning into a more forward thinking side.
What I didn't like about Ole's counter attack is that it seemed very limited and a lot of it was pinging a ball over the top to Rashford/other forward who could run into space behind. What Ralf seems to have improved is the general cohesion and shape of the team. It's not 'there' yet and the attack needs to get better but I can see good signs for us turning into a more forward thinking side.
It’ll be when we get the hipster manager of choice in, until of course they get bored of that one and they need a new toy.
Just like Sancho I'm surprised Ralf was written off so quickly. Barely a month into the job and some people were questioning his competence. Crazy really
All teams have the capability to counter attack. Even United in the past utilised the counter attack, but United under Fergie were a front foot team that looked to impose their game on the opposition. You can only counter attack if the opposition allows you to counter attack by leaving space in behind. And most games were against teams who would sit back and upon conceding would have to come out of their shell, which would leave them open to the counter.
Teams that press high can initiate a counter attack by winning the ball high up the pitch. Teams like Madrid, Chelsea, Inter etc mostly looked to impose their game on the opposition. And they would only revert to type against the big teams.
Teams that press high can initiate a counter attack by winning the ball high up the pitch. Teams like Madrid, Chelsea, Inter etc mostly looked to impose their game on the opposition. And they would only revert to type against the big teams.
This. You might win a cup by counter attacking, but you will never win a league when you don't know how to use a lot of possession, as lesser counter attacking teams will happily give you. This even applies to CL group stages and look how that went for Ole...
Leicester won the league hitting teams on the counter.
Completely agree mate. Leicester was a one off and most other big teams look to impose their game on the opposition, unless they come up against a equally good team, which then has the potential to turn into a tactical battle.
Surprise, surprise, it's the same guys that were patting United on the back for giving Ole a brand new contract for losing the EL final blindly backing the manager again. A result against City or Liverpool means feck all if the end result is more of the shite we've seen over the last 8 years. We should be shoo-ins for top 4 but we've managed to make it a real battle. Anyone that is convinced by Rangnick so far, I've got a bridge to sell to you.
You have to be really dense to think I want United to lose for no reason. Rather, I know in the eyes of the board, a win against both will be enough justification to give us another year of an average manager who will take us nowhere instead of getting someone like Ten Haag in straight away who has achieved more already than Rangnick has in his early career. If it means keeping Rangnick and beating Pool or getting a proper manager in and losing to them, then I'll take the latter all day. Just like Paris. We won feck all and had Ole in for 3 years. Why is it so hard for people to understand this concept time and time again?
But I guess you can ignore all that as the **** of the manager is strong on here where rebuilds take 3+ years and there are always no better managers than the one we coincidentally have in charge. Never mind me, though, I'm not a proper United fan.
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Just flicking through this thread to catch up, can’t help but think this aged badly and he’s put it to bed in the last couple of games.
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