Our most overrated keeper: it's Edwin / Don't Drink and Thread

[MattJ166]

This is a terrible thread title but I like the general direction it's gone since as it's got me reminiscing about Edwin. He was our keeper during my prime United watching Phase when i was a teenager so I will always love him, I was a little too young to remember Big Pete. Edwin was absolutely everything you would want in a keeper, put him behind any back 4 and he will immediately make them a more effective unit, can't say that for every keeper.

Particularly enjoying how it's also turned into a Park v Lingard thread, Park was much more consistent and important than Lingard but he can definitely bang a goal in unlike park. Other than being able to hit a screamer though Park pisses all over him.

 

[Interval]

Best thing I can say about VDS is that after

His decision making was also extremely good, which sounds like a basic thing, but having a keeper who will command his area and not flap at half the balls he comes for, or let someone head the ball in from 4 yards out because his feet are glued to the line, or suddenly appear on the TV screen 40 yards from his goal to boot the opposition striker in the stomach, makes a very big difference to the defence.

He also had very good distribution without the current fad of it coming hand in hand with dicking around with the ball for no reason and getting tackled every other game.

Exactly this. Up there with schmichel for me.

edit. This is our best keeper ever


Few observations: he forgothe was the keeper and tackled Keane outside the e box.
That bench
Carrick acting as a competent DM

 

[Smores]

I have no memory of runs of bad form. I remember him going through a spell of getting done with long rangers but he was still generally playing well. In fact, consistency is one of the key strengths I remember.

I may just have blocked out if course, but I remember a couple of properly bad runs from Big Pete (pre Christmas in our treble year for instance), so I imagine I would. Memory is an unreliable record though, so I'm sure you may well be correct.

Yeah the minutiae of games tends to get forgotten so I could be wrong. I recall a run of games where he was getting beaten at the near post too often then he went back to his normal standard.

Thing is he was never De Gea standard in terms of shot stopping, at least not with us. His strength was organisation and command of his box something that De Gea has sadly never shown.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

If you changed Bartez for Edwin in the title I'd be in agreement.

Who rated Barthez?!

 

[Offside]

He was a great shot stopper.

 

[Rozay]

except he did all that and more for his national team for years. Park was a top player by any metric and only because he sacrificed himself for the team and to win did we have the success we did with him in the side.

Ah, another one of these ‘sacrificed himself’ players. He was a decent player who played his part in a team with a lot better players. If that team happened to be finishing 5th and 6th, there is no chance that Park would be objectively considered a better player than Lingard.

And I think Jesse would have been a South Korea regular 15 years ago too.

 

[MattJ166]

Ah, another one of these ‘sacrificed himself’ players. He was a decent player who played his part in a team with a lot better players. If that team happened to be finishing 5th and 6th, there is no chance that Park would be objectively considered a better player than Lingard.

And I think Jesse would have been a South Korea regular 15 years ago too.

Yes the point is that team wasn't finishing 6th and Park was contributing to that. If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike - Gino.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

There should be a compendium of boneheaded hot takes like this thread starter. Just put the first post in, make a hall of infamy.

VDS was a fantastic keeper.

 

[crossy1686]

There should be a compendium of boneheaded hot takes like this thread starter. Just put the first post in, make a hall of infamy.

VDS was a fantastic keeper.

Our fans get younger all the time.

They watch a few YouTube clips and decide someone was overrated.

Give it a few years and they’ll be calling Keane overrated also.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Imagine calling Van De Sar an overrated keeper when an actual overrated keeper is currently playing for the club now.

 

[Jackal981]

except he did all that and more for his national team for years. Park was a top player by any metric and only because he sacrificed himself for the team and to win did we have the success we did with him in the side.

This forum man. Just today I had read that Neymar > Ronaldinho and Jlingz > Park. Whats next ? Rashford > Ronaldo ? Maguire > Vidic ? Mctom > Keane ?

 

[kthanksbye]

Wait what? How are people even talking about Park to say anything other than he'd be the best player in this United squad.

 

[GueRed]

Who rated Barthez?!

Barthez had a good career, was regarded one of the top keepers in the 90's and was excellent in his first season (2000-01) with us to be fair.

Shame he never really recovered from his error prone second season..Which sadly he is often remembered by.....Form dropped off a cliff.

Technically he is a more rounded modern keeper than De Gea.

 

[Skills]

Wait what? How are people even talking about Park to say anything other than he'd be the best player in this United squad.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Lingard is better than Park .

VDS is overrated .

This forum is full of some absolutely bonkers opinions.

 

[kthanksbye]

About the thread, the Eto'o goal was disappointing when we conceded it like that at the near post, Pedro was 1v1, I don't think VdS could've done much about that one.
Villa scored a banger, the only disappointing goal was Messi's header, he was in too much space.

Don't remember Messi's goal in 11, have never watched the highlights of either of the games.

Same with liverpool 1-4 and City 1-6, never rewatched the goals.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Barthez had a good career, was regarded one of the top keepers in the 90's and was excellent in his first season (2000-01) with us to be fair.

Shame he never really recovered from his error prone second season..Which sadly he is often remembered by.....Form dropped off a cliff.

Technically he is a more rounded modern keeper than De Gea.

That's the worse shout on here

 

[Rozay]

Yes the point is that team wasn't finishing 6th and Park was contributing to that. If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike - Gino.

I see. Perhaps what we have needed to win trophies all these years is to swap Jesse’s squad role with Park’s.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Lingard is better than Park .

VDS is overrated .

This forum is full of some absolutely bonkers opinions.

Every single time we have a week or more break these mental threads happen.

 

[Chairman Steve]

VDS was the ultimate goalkeeper for defensive structural organisation. I agree his shot stopping may not be as good as DDG but he far exceeds in other areas that DDG is not so good in.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

What a car crash of a thread.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

That's the worse shout on here

Just when you think we've hit peak muppet, someone comes along and does one better. I just want to savor the idea of Barthez being a better modern keeper than DeGea for a few minutes, try to get into that person's headspace... Nope. Can't be done.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Exactly this. Up there with schmichel for me.

edit. This is our best keeper ever


Few observations: he forgothe was the keeper and tackled Keane outside the e box.
That bench
Carrick acting as a competent DM

Hopefully you are old enough to have watched this match live. I was/am, and I remember the double goalkeeper sub, something I'd never seen before. Rio put on the gk shirt first, then O'Shea took it off him. There was an air of injustice, of us about to get wronged hard. And then O'Shea played like a maniac. That moment when he came out and tackled the guy on the edge of the box was insane. Like, everyone was saying, holy fecking shit, what did he just do?! It was awesome. It didn't look like O'Shea really knew what he was doing, but his attitude, his spirit of feck you, you are not beating us with these bullshit calls, was immense. O'Shea is a legend.

 

[Interval]

Hopefully you are old enough to have watched this match live. I was/am, and I remember the double goalkeeper sub, something I'd never seen before. Rio put on the gk shirt first, then O'Shea took it off him. There was an air of injustice, of us about to get wronged hard. And then O'Shea played like a maniac. That moment when he came out and tackled the guy on the edge of the box was insane. Like, everyone was saying, holy fecking shit, what did he just do?! It was awesome. It didn't look like O'Shea really knew what he was doing, but his attitude, his spirit of feck you, you are not beating us with these bullshit calls, was immense. O'Shea is a legend.

Yes sir. Thankfully saw it live. From the absolute domination in the first and early second half to chilling to a 4-0 to wtf o shea keeper to tackling Keane. Was lovely.

I concur with O Sheas attitude. fecking king of a man. Lesser in technique than colleague but did everything asked for him and at levels significantly higher than what we was capable of.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Just when you think we've hit peak muppet, someone comes along and does one better. I just want to savor the idea of Barthez being a better modern keeper than DeGea for a few minutes, try to get into that person's headspace... Nope. Can't be done.

The man was five foot eight and kept forgetting he wasn't playing for France and passing to his mate Thierry (to this day I think that was a swindle). He had awful kicking, couldn't catch crosses and spooned shots back into danger but yeah, he's technically superior to DDG

 

[AndySmith1990]

Overrated would describe players like Rashford and Martial. Not the CL and multiple league winning 'keeper Edwin van der sar

 

[Kag]

I’d give my left Traveller for him right now.

 

[MattJ166]

I see. Perhaps what we have needed to win trophies all these years is to swap Jesse’s squad role with Park’s.

How you have got that from what I just said I will never know. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite huh?

Also, if we had had Park over Lingard this last half decade he would have been a regular starter for us and would have definitely contributed a lot, particularly in the press - three lungs was almost built for this.

 

[GueRed]

That's the worse shout on here

The key word is technical ability.

De Gea was and still is World Class on his line but he's average or above average everywhere else IMO.

At half De Gea's height Barthez was better at claiming crosses and high balls. Barthez' kicking and footwork was better. And Barthez could play the 'sweeper keeper' role better meaning the defence could play higher up.

De Gea still gets a nose bleed whenever he goes beyond the penalty spot, he's too passive a goalkeeper for the modern era.

I'm guessing most of you lot on here are young and don't remember and appreciate when Barthez was in his pomp pre 2001/02.

Mentally though? Different story. De Gea over Barthez all day for me. David overcame adversity. Barthez crumbled and never got back to the same levels or consistency again.

 

[HairyBack23]

The man was five foot eight and kept forgetting he wasn't playing for France and passing to his mate Thierry (to this day I think that was a swindle). He had awful kicking, couldn't catch crosses and spooned shots back into danger but yeah, he's technically superior to DDG

Can you make another one of your lunatic threads on Barthez's match fixing

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

The thread is obviously nonsense, but I've seen the Park-Lingard comparisons loads of times and never understood why people get bothered by them.

Also, if we had had Park over Lingard this last half decade he would have been a regular starter for us and would have definitely contributed a lot

Nothing from Park's actual career with us backs this up.

He was here for 7 seasons and very much a bit-part player, only appearing in over 50% of our league games in 2 seasons. When he did play, his role was to add balance to the attack with his work-rate, while averaging 4 goals a season in all competitions - minimal end product for a nominally attacking player.

Take the names out and that sentence might as well be describing Lingard.

Park was a great player to add balance and energy to a loaded attacking lineup with Ronaldo as a nominal winger and a midfield often featuring mid-30s Giggs and Scholes. Stick him in our teams from the last half-decade (all of which have been starved for goals and creativity) and he'd contribute... not very much at all.

 

[MattJ166]

The thread is obviously nonsense, but I've seen the Park-Lingard comparisons loads of times and never understood why people get bothered by them.



Nothing from Park's actual career with us backs this up.

He was here for 7 seasons and very much a bit-part player, only appearing in over 50% of our league games in 2 seasons. When he did play, his role was to add balance to the attack with his work-rate, while averaging 4 goals a season in all competitions - minimal end product for a nominally attacking player.

Take the names out and that sentence might as well be describing Lingard.

Park was a great player to add balance and energy to a loaded attacking lineup with Ronaldo as a nominal winger and a midfield often featuring mid-30s Giggs and Scholes. Stick him in our teams from the last half-decade (all of which have been starved for goals and creativity) and he'd contribute... not very much at all.

By Contributions I don't mean that he'd be scoring screamers and knocking loads of goals in. I mean the system that RR is trying to employ (And the one Ole initially tried) is tailor suited to someone like Park, stick him on our right, left or even centre (Probably right as he isn't replacing Sancho) and our team immediately becomes a much more high-energy unit. Do you not think adding balance to our attack with his workrate (Whilst admittedly having a greater onus to create in the team) would be very much needed when we've had Ronaldo, Martial, Lukaku, Rashford all plodding around at different stages over the last 5 or so years?

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

By Contributions I don't mean that he'd be scoring screamers and knocking loads of goals in. I mean the system that RR is trying to employ (And the one Ole initially tried) is tailor suited to someone like Park, stick him on our right, left or even centre (Probably right as he isn't replacing Sancho) and our team immediately becomes a much more high-energy unit. Do you not think adding balance to our attack with his workrate (Whilst admittedly having a greater onus to create in the team) would be very much needed when we've had Ronaldo, Martial, Lukaku, Rashford all plodding around at different stages over the last 5 or so years?

I don't. I think if you take Park from 2008/09 and stick him in the team right now, he'd be a useful addition, but that's only because most of our attack is hopelessly out of form this season. If we're talking the last 5 or so years in general, he'd be a squad player at best, serving the same purpose as James or, again, the 2016-19 version of Lingard.

All those players you've mentioned as "plodding around" have proven themselves many, many times to be on a different level to Park as attackers - and yes, that includes Martial and Rashford as well as Greenwood.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Can you make another one of your lunatic threads on Barthez's match fixing

If you promise me you'll research sarcasm and humour.

 

[MattJ166]

I don't. I think if you take Park from 2008/09 and stick him in the team right now, he'd be a useful addition, but that's only because most of our attack is hopelessly out of form this season. If we're talking the last 5 or so years in general, he'd be a squad player at best, serving the same purpose as James or, again, the 2016-19 version of Lingard.

All those players you've mentioned as "plodding around" have proven themselves many, many times to be on a different level to Park as attackers - and yes, that includes Martial and Rashford as well as Greenwood.

Fair enough then mate, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

That also wasn't a knock on Rashford or Martial but currently those two players have about as much energy as a paraplegic snail and Park would 100% replace either of those in their current form - not the 18/19 version of them for example but he probably would have got in somewhere else whether that be as a similar role he played against pirlo or elsewhere. Greenwood can get fecked.

To compare Park to James is absolutely ridiculous. He basically scored or assisted 1 in 4 for us playing from predominantly left midfield (not winger) whilst not world class he wasn't on the pitch to do this. (56 G +A in 202 games compared to 56 G+A in 229 games for Jesse - that's actually a bit mental how they've contributed the same - although obviously Park played 27 games less and was a 'bit part player' in a great team but still put up better numbers) This considering that his role wasn't to assist or score but rather add that balance and energy as you mentioned previously.
James

Comparing them internationally Jesse (P 32, G 6, A 5) 1 in 3 goal contribution also isn't bad for Jesse in a strong England team (Compared to SK).

Park (P 94, G 14, A 9) - interestingly enough for the world cup qualifiers he played 19 with 11 G+A contributions - which is pretty decent) in a much weaker SK team.

* Stats from transfermrket - there are some discrepancies on stats even on their site.

 

[big rons sovereign]

The key word is technical ability.

De Gea was and still is World Class on his line but he's average or above average everywhere else IMO.

At half De Gea's height Barthez was better at claiming crosses and high balls. Barthez' kicking and footwork was better. And Barthez could play the 'sweeper keeper' role better meaning the defence could play higher up.

De Gea still gets a nose bleed whenever he goes beyond the penalty spot, he's too passive a goalkeeper for the modern era.

I'm guessing most of you lot on here are young and don't remember and appreciate when Barthez was in his pomp pre 2001/02.

Mentally though? Different story. De Gea over Barthez all day for me. David overcame adversity. Barthez crumbled and never got back to the same levels or consistency again.

I'll never forget that save against Liverpool. Just ridiculous.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I don't. I think if you take Park from 2008/09 and stick him in the team right now, he'd be a useful addition, but that's only because most of our attack is hopelessly out of form this season. If we're talking the last 5 or so years in general, he'd be a squad player at best, serving the same purpose as James or, again, the 2016-19 version of Lingard.

All those players you've mentioned as "plodding around" have proven themselves many, many times to be on a different level to Park as attackers - and yes, that includes Martial and Rashford as well as Greenwood.

this is how I remember it too. Park was total energy but not all that technically gifted. I think he's better than Dan James, though, but I agree he would have probably had about the same impact. I loved Park's hunger but I don't remember him being any kind of a game-changer or really influencing proceedings, but then again, with the talent around him maybe all he needed to do was get the ball back and give it one of the attackers.

 

[EtH]

Why does this thread continue ?

 

[norm87cro]

In all honesty he was brilliant and this is coming from a Schmeichel fan. He is in the Top 3 United ever had and this thread is slightly disrespectful

 

[The Siege]

It's like OP smoked the doob of bad opinions.
Yes, VDS wasn't flawless, but he was incredible for most of his time at United. In fact, he got most of his errors out of his system before he landed up at United.