Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[the hea]

But what about the oil prices.

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[shamans]

So I assume you are at the front given that you want Ukraine to surrender its rightful territories to Russia?

I don't want that to happen. I want the war to end and that's a big difference

 

[shamans]

Not in any way? Just by being born in the US you are almost guaranteed to be richer than the vast majority of humanity. Those suffering from the war outside Ukraine are those in developing countries, especially because of the increase in food prices. People forget how lucky they were if they are born in the EU or the US. We should be solidary with Ukraine and do with less wealth while they do the dying for the rest of us. shaman's take is just the usual "America first" bullshit.

If you're gonna suggest oil prices have no impact on poverty in the US so check your privileges, that's complete nonesense. Not surprised you think that.

Your take is Europe first bullshit because guess what, Ukraine is not the only conflict where a bully is muscling their way to get that they want. If you look beyond Facebook blue and yellow profile pictures and check the news, you'd know.

Also, if you really think American aid is out of some love or empathy for Ukraine I feel for you

 

[mckenzie79]

But what about the oil prices.

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Yeah, but we can't anger Russia, they can do what they want because they have some nukes.God forbid we should do something about it, we'll just kick it along the road for the next country that gets invaded, or the next generation to deal with.

Russia can do what it wants, no one will do anything about it. That's the world we live in. And Russia knows it. The West as it stands is weak as it has ever been in history.

 

[shamans]

But what about the oil prices.

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I'm not going to derail this thread but there's a geopolitics thread. There's no reason you can't say feck Russia but these oil prices are really hurting us.

You're genuinely clueless if you think all it means is an extra few bucks for your daily commute

 

[the hea]

I'm not going to derail this thread but there's a geopolitics thread. There's no reason you can't say feck Russia but these oil prices are really hurting us.

You're genuinely clueless if you think all it means is an extra few bucks for your daily commute

It means a few bucks more for everything but that is nothing compared to being tortured or raped in my opinion. Maybe you value cheap food and gas over the safety of your close ones but I don't and neither do the Ukrainians.

 

[the hea]

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[shamans]

It means a few bucks more for everything but that is nothing compared to being tortured or raped in my opinion. Maybe you value cheap food and gas over the safety of your close ones but I don't and neither do the Ukrainians.

That's not all it is. You're making it sound like it's a mere inconvenience and nothing more which simply isn't true.

 

[Zehner]

I don't want that to happen. I want the war to end and that's a big difference

You want Ukraine to surrender territory they aren't ready to surrender because oil and gas prices. Pretty rich from you to criticize me as a keyboard warrior when I'm actually the one of us who supports the demands of those who are fighting in the war. If Ukraine wanted to surrender the occupied regions, ir would be a totally different story but that's not the case.

If you're gonna suggest oil prices have no impact on poverty in the US so check your privileges, that's complete nonesense. Not surprised you think that.

Your take is Europe first bullshit because guess what, Ukraine is not the only conflict where a bully is muscling their way to get that they want. If you look beyond Facebook blue and yellow profile pictures and check the news, you'd know.

Also, if you really think American aid is out of some love or empathy for Ukraine I feel for you

I don't suggest that. What I suggest is that the standard of living in the US is far higher - even amongst the poor - than the standard of living in less privileged parts of the world.

And no, I don't think it is out of empathy, it is a proxy wqr against a nuclear war invading a sovereign country. It is in the US' geopolitical interest that Ukraine wins and that the whole situation is stabilized. You don't seem to get that, you only see the oil prices and think in the short term.

And finally, save your whataboutism for other threads. You've backed yourself into a corner, so don't try to play the get out of jail card.

 

[Gehrman]

Yeah, but we can't anger Russia, they can do what they want because they have some nukes.God forbid we should do something about it, we'll just kick it along the road for the next country that gets invaded, or the next generation to deal with.

Russia can do what it wants, no one will do anything about it. That's the world we live in. And Russia knows it. The West as it stands is weak as it has ever been in history.

The US and the West Are always slated for intervening and also slated when they don't. It's funny no one is pointing fingers at China for doing feck all because they know The CCP doesn't give a flying feck about ethics. The anti western moaners will love it when China is the world's hegemon in a few decades. Still we are actually doing something providing Ukraine with finances, weapons, Intel and imposing severe sanctions on Russia. Ukraine has a competent fighting force and the Russian invasion so far has been a massive failure.

 

[Water Melon]

Ukranians are not going to surrender any of their territories. Their people are dying, their Motherland being destroyed, they are in a true war. If put-ler ever decides to go nuclear, the west will not hold back either. Just because one rushist cnut has nuclear weapons, it does not mean that he can do whatever the feck he wishes to a sovereign neighbour country. Had there been no initial support from the US and the UK, we would have no sovereign Ukraine now. Put-ler did this to Chechnya, Georgia, the Crimeans. Moldova is also far from feeling safe. It is the chief rushist who is causing havoc and death to neighbours. It is him who believes that the mighty Russia should rule over former USSR countries. He is a rushist, and his ideology is rushism. Oil and gas prices shooting up, millions of people potentially facing death from hunger, are all his fault. Ukrainans wanted none of it. It is them who are dying en masse, it is their cities that are being erased from the face of the Earth, it is their citizens that face the ultimate horror each and every day. I hope the chief rushist is defeated in the heaviest way possible, thus making Europe a continent with no big tensions, which will in its turn have a huge positive impact on the whole world.

 

[Cascarino]

The US and the West Are always slated for intervening and also slated when they don't. It's funny no one is pointing fingers at China for doing feck all because they know The CCP doesn't give a flying feck about ethics. The anti western moaners will love it when China is the world's hegemon in a few decades. Still we are actually doing something providing Ukraine with finances, weapons, Intel and imposing severe sanctions on Russia. Ukraine has a competent fighting force and the Russian invasion so far has been a massive failure.

Stupid post. You know full well why they've been slated for interventions in the past, you're not naive enough to think they occurred due to altruism.

 

[Gehrman]

Stupid post. You know full well why they've been slated for interventions in the past, you're not naive enough to think they occurred due to altruism.

True, yet its still the west everyone looks to when there is the "won't somebody please do something" sentiment.

 

[Cascarino]

True, yet its still the west everyone looks to when there is the "won't somebody please do something" sentiment.

I think I get what you're saying here, but what situations are you referring to?

 

[Gehrman]

I think I get what you're saying here, but what situations are you referring to?

Syria in its early stages. Libya when civil war broke out under Gadaffi. Anyway, you're right it was a stupid post. I have a hangover from last night. But it's still true that people with anti western sentiment constantly berate especially the US for playing the world police and are now berating them for not doing it enough.

 

[Cascarino]

Syria in its early stages. Libya when civil war broke out under Gadaffi. Anyway, you're right it was a stupid post. I have a hangover from last night. But it's still true that people with anti western sentiment constantly berate especially the US for playing the world police and are now berating them for not doing it enough.

I think a lot of the criticism comes from the idea of a world police, and the drivers behind it. The US didn't reluctantly assume that mantle, it was done by design to serve its interests economically and ideologically, to ensure that it remains the principal global superpower. When its conduct in this capacity has been criticised (this is extended to the UK and co too of course) historically there has been thorough and objective reasons for the criticism. That doesn't mean situations can't be evaluated on a case by case basis, past failed interventions (with questionable casus belli) doesn't mean that hypothetically there won't be a situation where one would think there is cause to intervene.

I mean having said all that I agree completely with the sentiment of your initial post here

Still we are actually doing something providing Ukraine with finances, weapons, Intel and imposing severe sanctions on Russia. Ukraine has a competent fighting force and the Russian invasion so far has been a massive failure.

 

[TwoSheds]

I think I get what you're saying here, but what situations are you referring to?

Yemen would be one example where we should be putting pressure on the Saudis to resolve it peacefully.

 

[Brwned]

I was talking about the UK. Part of what you say is true. there are or will be people who are very well off or even comfortable who won't want to pay anything or undergo any hardship. and not just for Ukraine but basically any cause that isn't immediate to them. but there is also an enormous percentage of the population that is really struggling both in Europe and the US. if I was coming back from a food bank and someone told me I needed to do more I'd tell them to get fecked and that wouldn't have anything to do with Ukraine. same if I was in the bracket just above that. it isn't just the war that is responsible for the inflation crisis anyway but it has made it worse. it's just not the right approach imo to tell people who are struggling that they're selfish or aren't sacrificing enough when wealth inequality is at the worst level it has ever been in the US and Europe.

i'd say arm Ukraine within whatever bounds make military and political sense. give Ukraine humanitarian aid and basically do what can be done on those fronts. but people's concern about their own precarious position shouldn't just be dismissed as "materialist" or "selfish". it's people's lives we're talking about and income + wealth inequality are forcing many below the poverty line.

you also have to bear in mind that the US has given Ukraine a lot of money. more has been given to Ukraine this year alone than is earmarked for the entire federal education budget. whatever people's feelings I don't think you can say people in these countries haven't done enough when their tax money will run to about one hundred billion within a single year by the end of the year, or next six month period, when all is said and done. i don't know, i just think it's wise to separate the very real crisis in living from the very real crisis in Ukraine and not to shame people or virtue signal about being able to undertake more cuts when you're potentially talking with or to people for whom a cut might mean homelessness.

The post that triggered @Zehner’s comment was from @shamans who is very comfortable financially and does not represent people in food banks. He’s more likely to think about banks losing money than food banks losing resources. And when he said that his view is not in the minority, he was representing the view of people like himself who care more about America’s GDP and economic growth than the number of people under the poverty line in America and their current trajectory. They’re looking at the stock market and feeling the pain, and they think maybe Ukraine should do something to stop that pain. Just make a few concessions, give up a bit of land, help stabilise the oil prices that ultimately matter more to the world than your little claim of sovereignty. That is a morally objectionable position. So if anything, it’s you conflating @Zehner’s comment that was grounded in a specific context with some wider social commentary that has ended up in virtue signalling.

 

[Gehrman]

I think a lot of the criticism comes from the idea of a world police, and the drivers behind it. The US didn't reluctantly assume that mantle, it was done by design to serve its interests economically and ideologically, to ensure that it remains the principal global superpower. When its conduct in this capacity has been criticised (this is extended to the UK and co too of course) historically there has been thorough and objective reasons for the criticism. That doesn't mean situations can't be evaluated on a case by case basis, past failed interventions (with questionable casus belli) doesn't mean that hypothetically there won't be a situation where one would think there is cause to intervene.

I mean having said all that I agree completely with the sentiment of your initial post here

Completely agree

 

[VorZakone]

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[shamans]

You want Ukraine to surrender territory they aren't ready to surrender because oil and gas prices. Pretty rich from you to criticize me as a keyboard warrior when I'm actually the one of us who supports the demands of those who are fighting in the war. If Ukraine wanted to surrender the occupied regions, ir would be a totally different story but that's not the case.




I don't suggest that. What I suggest is that the standard of living in the US is far higher - even amongst the poor - than the standard of living in less privileged parts of the world.

And no, I don't think it is out of empathy, it is a proxy wqr against a nuclear war invading a sovereign country. It is in the US' geopolitical interest that Ukraine wins and that the whole situation is stabilized. You don't seem to get that, you only see the oil prices and think in the short term.

And finally, save your whataboutism for other threads. You've backed yourself into a corner, so don't try to play the get out of jail card.

Don't run away from your comments now. You go about acting as if rising gas prices is just an inconvenience on the drive to your golf course. Many Americans are struggling for basic necessities right now and are paying the price for not only Russia's aggression but Europe's incompetence in over reliance on Russia and Zelenskys lack of preparation despite being warned

What you also dont get is I'm an immigrant and have family "back home" that is impacted by the gas prices in ways you couldn't even fathom. While you play geopolitics and cream yourself at probably the first conflict you've ever followed the situation around the world is terrible. Third world countries where people die everyday dont give a crap about Russia Ukraine and who gains what land. Cold hard facts. That should not matter anyways, just from an American perspective is enough.

I have no sympathy for Russia they're playing the same game Israel has been playing but even with Israel in Palestine has had to yield and so has neighboring countries.

As for "get out of jail" cars I see why it got you so agressive. You're afraid of being faced with similar global conflicts that you probably don't give a crap about. You don't want to face the hypocrisy.

Probably texting this franticly on your iPhone or Android phone ethically crafted in China while they decimate the Uyghurs and take their land. Wonder why you can't give up that privileged right.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cascarino]

Shamans, what are you advocating for regarding Ukraine, what do you think they should do?

 

[Jim Beam]

The absolute horror that is taking place in Ukraine (and for so long) has moved me for the first time closer to "get involved on the ground" line of thinking.

Couldn't care less about gas prices or who is affected by it.

 

[neverdie]

The post that triggered @Zehner’s comment was from @shamans who is very comfortable financially and does not represent people in food banks. He’s more likely to think about banks losing money than food banks losing resources. And when he said that his view is not in the minority, he was representing the view of people like himself who care more about America’s GDP and economic growth than the number of people under the poverty line in America and their current trajectory. They’re looking at the stock market and feeling the pain, and they think maybe Ukraine should do something to stop that pain. Just make a few concessions, give up a bit of land, help stabilise the oil prices that ultimately matter more to the world than your little claim of sovereignty. That is a morally objectionable position. So if anything, it’s you conflating @Zehner’s comment that was grounded in a specific context with some wider social commentary that has ended up in virtue signalling.

not familiar enough with the poster's finances to tell if that's right or not. as for my comment, I stand by it generally. don't want to get into this thread tbh but while it is true that being born in America or the UK means you are better off statisticallly than most people born elsewhere, it's also true that America has tent cities and extreme poverty. the UK also has rising poverty. i think the general line that people from these countries, normal people barely getting by that is, not the very well off, need to be able to swallow an endless amount of debt and hardship is misguided. better not to conflate the two issues imo. which is the tone i got from the original exchange but is possible I completely misread it.

 

[Denis79]

The absolute horror that is taking place in Ukraine (and for so long) has moved me for the first time closer to "get involved on the ground" line of thinking.

Couldn't care less about gas prices or who is affected by it.

I get your point but food production is hit by the high prices, farmers are hit hard while Russia are holding cereals hostage. It's a fecking terrible what's going on and even worse what is yet to come. That said it's not for Ukraine to sacrifice anything so the gas prices go down, there are ways for stronger governments to take that hit but something has to be done so the absolute poorest are fed.

 

[maniak]

Couldn't care less about gas prices or who is affected by it.

Bold statement when millions will starve to death.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I get your point but food production is hit by the high prices, farmers are hit hard while Russia are holding cereals hostage. It's a fecking terrible what's going on and even worse what is yet to come. That said it's not for Ukraine to sacrifice anything so the gas prices go down, there are ways for stronger governments to take that hit but something has to be done so the absolute poorest are fed.

The looming grain shortage could make the $/bbl of oil look like small potatoes, methinks. I haven’t looked into much yet though as far as how wheat supply is projected to look like globally.

 

[Denis79]

The looming grain shortage could make the $/bbl of oil look like small potatoes, methinks. I haven’t looked into much yet though as far as how wheat supply is projected to look like globally.

Yeah you're right. I know here at home farmers are not motivated to sow grain because of the high gas prices and there are no incentives from the government either. There are acres and acres of land that can produce a lot but it's simply not profitable to do so with the high gas prices and no governmental help.

 

[Water Melon]

When millions start to die because of high oil prices and lack of cereals, it will be because of put-ler's actions. Not because of Ukranians protecting and fighting to death to protect their families and homeland. Not a fecking inch of Ukranian soil should be ceded. Put more pressure on the agressor, provide more arms to Ukraine to defeat the aggressor asap. The world defeated fascism, the world will have to defeat rushism as well.

 

[Brwned]

not familiar enough with the poster's finances to tell if that's right or not. as for my comment, I stand by it generally. don't want to get into this thread tbh but while it is true that being born in America or the UK means you are better off statisticallly than most people born elsewhere, it's also true that America has tent cities and extreme poverty. the UK also has rising poverty. i think the general line that people from these countries, normal people barely getting by that is, not the very well off, need to be able to swallow an endless amount of debt and hardship is misguided. better not to conflate the two issues imo. which is the tone i got from the original exchange but is possible I completely misread it.

I doubt anyone is explicitly requesting people at the poverty line accept going below the poverty line for an indefinite period as an act of sacrifice for the Ukrainians. Mostly I’d think people are just thinking about the average person in the US or UK, who can afford to take a hit to their finances without real harm, along with the large group of above average people who do have excessive wealth compared to the average person in Ukraine, never mind the average person outside of Europe. They’re not intentionally ignoring the substantial number of people in food banks, but it’s not the first thing they think of. Because once you start thinking about them the trade-offs become much more concerning, the solutions become much more complicated, and those opportunities to cleanly win the moral argument with all of the deep satisfaction that comes with it start to diminish. And that’s what internet arguments are all about in the end.

So in that sense I agree that it’s important to separate out the issues, consider them on their own merits, and discuss the complexities of how they overlap. I’m just saying in this case, the guy that triggered the discussion wasn’t arguing from your position at all. And someone arguing from a position of selfish priorities in a comfortable living situation will inevitably trigger moral outrage when that’s weighed up against the situation the Ukrainians are facing.

 

[VorZakone]

By the way, the UK MoD are saying there's also desertions happening on the Ukrainian side.

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[maniak]

When millions start to die because of high oil prices and lack of cereals, it will be because of put-ler's actions. Not because of Ukranians protecting and fighting to death to protect their families and homeland. Not a fecking inch of Ukranian soil should be ceded. Put more pressure on the agressor, provide more arms to Ukraine to defeat the aggressor asap. The world defeated fascism, the world will have to defeat rushism as well.

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

 

[Zehner]

Don't run away from your comments now. You go about acting as if rising gas prices is just an inconvenience on the drive to your golf course. Many Americans are struggling for basic necessities right now and are paying the price for not only Russia's aggression but Europe's incompetence in over reliance on Russia and Zelenskys lack of preparation despite being warned

What you also dont get is I'm an immigrant and have family "back home" that is impacted by the gas prices in ways you couldn't even fathom. While you play geopolitics and cream yourself at probably the first conflict you've ever followed the situation around the world is terrible. Third world countries where people die everyday dont give a crap about Russia Ukraine and who gains what land. Cold hard facts. That should not matter anyways, just from an American perspective is enough.

I have no sympathy for Russia they're playing the same game Israel has been playing but even with Israel in Palestine has had to yield and so has neighboring countries.

As for "get out of jail" cars I see why it got you so agressive. You're afraid of being faced with similar global conflicts that you probably don't give a crap about. You don't want to face the hypocrisy.

Probably texting this franticly on your iPhone or Android phone ethically crafted in China while they decimate the Uyghurs and take their land. Wonder why you can't give up that privileged right.

[/QUOTE]

Mate, come off your high horse. It's cute that you think you're the only one who knows about all the bad stuff that happens around the world but you really aren't. If that's your feeling, maybe you need to surround yourself with other people. It's nothing special to be informed, it should actually be the norm. And just for the record, my grandparents came to Germany as refugees as well and fled from interment camps in Serbia - a genocide (>60.000 dead) that to this date is barely even admitted by the local governments. But it doesn't matter. When injustice goes unpunished it sucks but that doesn't mean that it is okay to look away when another one happens. And you are not bringing these things up because you want to direct attention at them, you do so because you backed yourself into a corner and now try to distract (pretending to care) from a simple fact:

Ukraine doesn't want to surrender. The people actually doing the fighting don't want to surrender. You criticized me as a keyboard warrior, but you are actually the one trying to tell the people on the front what they should do. So put your money where your mouth is and shut up.

 

[Jim Beam]

Bold statement when millions will starve to death.

Yeah, I clearly went too far with it, but just seen scenes and pictures from Mariupul and Severodoneck having serious flashbacks of war which I went through as a kid. The comment was related to regular/average folks in the west who will be hardly affected by it, but still wasn't justifiable and could have put it better.

 

[Water Melon]

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

Donbass is worth everything. Just like defeating fascism was worth everything. There is no way put-ler can go unpunished after what he has done. He is ready to see millions of Ukranians die just as he does not give a f...ck about millions of others who will die because of hunger caused by his actions. Hitler and put-ler are pretty similar to me, just like fascism and russism. Ukraine are a sovereign nation and a sovereign country. They have their own language, culture and are just protecting their homeland. On contrary, put-ler is that very cnut who believes that Russia is still an empire and should dominate over other nations. F..ck him. We all have our motherlands, culture, native languages etc. We all have our families to protect. Stop the aggressor, help the defender. Make sure that the aggressor has no more means to start anything like this in the future.

 

[maniak]

Yeah, I clearly went too far with it, but just seen scenes and pictures from Mariupul and Severodoneck having serious flashbacks of war which I went through as a kid. The comment was related to regular/average folks in the west who will be hardly affected by it, but still wasn't justifiable and could have put it better.

I get it, the gut reaction is there for me too. But then we see pictures from children starving in africa and things aren't as black and white anymore.

Donbass is worth everything. Just like defeating fascism was worth everything. There is no way put-ler can go unpunished after what he has done. He is ready to see millions of Ukranians die just as he does not give a f...ck about millions of others who will die because of hunger caused by his actions. Hitler and put-ler are pretty similar to me, just like fascism and russism. Ukraine are a sovereign nation and a sovereign country. They have their own language, culture and are just protecting their homeland. On contrary, put-ler is that very cnut who believes that Russia is still an empire and should dominate over other nations. F..ck him. We all have our motherlands, culture, native languages etc. We all have our families to protect. Stop the aggressor, help the defender. Make sure that the aggressor has no more means to start anything like this in the future.

When you say everything, you mean a global food crises that will add 47 million people to acute hunger situation (according to WFP), with god knows how many million dead, is an acceptable price to pay? Especially when we (the west) are deciding these things for those who will die.

I've read your posts in this thread and I can't imagine being in your shoes, with people I know and love dying. I'd probably feel the same way. But I feel we're getting to a point where the old "we can't negotiate with terrorists" might mean too high a price.

 

[neverdie]

I doubt anyone is explicitly requesting people at the poverty line accept going below the poverty line for an indefinite period as an act of sacrifice for the Ukrainians. Mostly I’d think people are just thinking about the average person in the US or UK, who can afford to take a hit to their finances without real harm, along with the large group of above average people who do have excessive wealth compared to the average person in Ukraine, never mind the average person outside of Europe. They’re not intentionally ignoring the substantial number of people in food banks, but it’s not the first thing they think of. Because once you start thinking about them the trade-offs become much more concerning, the solutions become much more complicated, and those opportunities to cleanly win the moral argument with all of the deep satisfaction that comes with it start to diminish. And that’s what internet arguments are all about in the end.

So in that sense I agree that it’s important to separate out the issues, consider them on their own merits, and discuss the complexities of how they overlap. I’m just saying in this case, the guy that triggered the discussion wasn’t arguing from your position at all. And someone arguing from a position of selfish priorities in a comfortable living situation will inevitably trigger moral outrage when that’s weighed up against the situation the Ukrainians are facing.

yeah if your only point is how much the price of oil or gas affects you personally, then I agree that it's a non-point and should be called out. the broader issue for me is the idea of a catch-all wealth tax which effectively hits those without any actual wealth to begin with. or even the idea of a wealth tax which is suitable for wars and arms manufacturing but not for domestic social policies. during the last election, as an example, the idea of a wealth tax was roundly savaged with all the news outlets scrambling to feature a representative of the market who would warn about capital flight and magic money trees. now, though, there's a sense of "we must suffer so they can win". that's well and good but where's that spirit when it comes time to end poverty and homelessness? and in that context the two issues clash.

there is or will be massive resentment from enormous parts of the population who are told to suffer more at a time of record inequality when the richest people in these countries and their representatives were at pains to stress how counter productive it would be for them to suffer a wealth tax for the sake of everyone else. that resentment isn't toward Ukraine btw but toward representatives of the richest who lecture the poorest about what it is to be selfless. at which point it doesn't matter how noble your cause is because governments have demonstrated that they don't care about the poorest in their own countries enough to make any substantial sacrifice at all. that is, the people who advocate social spending cuts, like universal credit not so long ago, are the same ones who will say we should do more or there's no limit to what we can do, and that is a massive problem. it takes on the same character of people in highly comfortable living situations telling the rest, a large section of which barely copes with the cost of living, that they shouldn't be "selfish" and that's where I draw a line.

But if your only point is that Ukraine should capitulate because the price of oil is inconvenient, not because of a much broader underlying context of establishment and governmental hypocrisy and greed, then I agree that that's something else completely and laregly irrelevant. likely I misread Zehner's original post either way and don't want to go more off topic here than already done. my point, largely, has nothing to do with Ukraine itself. i don't think they should capitulate and do think there is an obvious argument for arming them within reasonable limits, to the extent that we avoid direct confrontation between Russia and NATO, and also an obvious humanitarian argument in terms of refugee accomodation and the rest. my point is more about the domestic social context and the arguments you hear, from some people at least, about being selfish because you're worried that your own living situation and that of millions of other people is seriously in doubt. and that's no small thing especially when the government and establishment have demonstrated no will to care about the very people I'm speaking of in any context at all.

 

[Water Melon]

I get it, the gut reaction is there for me too. But then we see pictures from children starving in africa and things aren't as black and white anymore.



When you say everything, you mean a global food crises that will add 47 million people to acute hunger situation (according to WFP), with god knows how many million dead, is an acceptable price to pay? Especially when we (the west) are deciding these things for those who will die.

I've read your posts in this thread and I can't imagine being in your shoes, with people I know and love dying. I'd probably feel the same way. But I feel we're getting to a point where the old "we can't negotiate with terrorists" might mean too high a price.

Yes, you do not negotiate with terrorists at the expense of the country being terrorized. It is that simple. Stop the aggressor, the cause of all these problems. Put-ler is blocking the ports, creating concentration camps, encouraging his army to be as barbaric as possible. Ukranians are willing to fight for their land and no leader in the world has any right to tell them stop it. In fact, everyone is supporting them to carry on their fight against the ultimate evil. Put pressure on put-ler not Zelenskyy.

 

[Gehrman]

Are there any surveys about ukraines sentiments on ceding Donbass?

 

[maniak]

Yes, you do not negotiate with terrorists at the expense of the country being terrorized. It is that simple.

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.