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Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Maybe the hundreds of millions spent will eventually result in a couple of points more, regardless of the manager? Even then, just look at what he bought for more than 150 million € last season alone: Ben White, Tomiyasu, Odegaard, Lokonga, etc. Ask yourself, which one of these players can actually help you mount a title challenge at some point?
The players that actually make Arteta look remotely competent are all academy players (Saka, Smith-Rowe, etc.) , not the ones he bought. Even then, he managed to criminally underuse Martinelli until he had no choice anymore. They should have stuck with Emery and trusted with him the rebuild. As long as Arteta is the manager I wouldn't ever lose any sleep over Arsenal being competitive.
This is a bit rubbish tbh.
Tomiyasu, Odegaard, Ramsdale all had good seasons. White also had a good season. Tavares and Lokonga were the only real average signings but both were projects anyway.
You can talk about signing players to win titles, but who do you propose we sign? The whole point of this phase of the rebuild was to sign younger players with potential on low wages so we can restructure our wage budget.
We don't and didn't have CL so bringing in world class players would have been tricky. This summer we've signed Jesus and Zinchenko who are a level a bit above those of last summer and also have more experience.
We've gone down the route of signing: Ozil, Alexis, Auba, Laca, even Partey. These guys never led us to a title, or any sort of longer term sustainability or success. So the club are taking a different approach which is sort of similar to Liverpools, but different in terms of age profile.
As for your Martinelli point, it's just a basic view. Martinelli came back from a relatively big injury and he looked quite weak physically whenever he played. You felt he'd just get injured straight away. So Arteta took him out the team and made him work on it, and now he looks far more robust and you feel he can take tackles a lot better now than before.
There is a clear reason Arteta didn't play him much for a period.
You can't look at this kind of stuff outside of the context in which it happens. United had a poor season; Spurs had a poor beginning of the season and fired their manager; Chelsea had the ownership issue. You can't be doing well if you're served something on a silver platter and still can't take it.
In 20/21, Arsenal conceded 39 goals (with xGA 43-44). In 21/22 season they conceded 48 goals (with xGA 47-48). That is clear step backwards.
In fact, in 20/21 people who defended Arteta's work would praise that Arsenal had the 3rd best defense in the PL. You can probably find posts like that in this thread if you go back far enough. They added an expensive goalkeeper and center back and dropped to being the 8th best defense in the PL.
Arsenal signed Ozil and Alexis in 2013, and won 4 FA Cups between the 13/14 season and the 18/19 season. Alexis was the man of the match for the 17/18 win; Aubameyang was the man of the match for the 18/19 win. They lead Arsenal to the only trophies they'd won since 2005. It's a bit misleading to act like signing actually good players is useless.
Liverpool's approach was successful partly because of the age profile; it was a fast approach. They moved fast. Klopp got them back in the CL in his first full season, and into a CL final in his second full season, and then another CL final in his third full season. You can't just take a similar approach but slow it down.
If a tap in merchant like Fabrizio Romano can turn into football world Oracle, and has countless sheep worshipping him, so can Mikel Arteta.
He can become a real tactical genius once he continue to spend money on PR and bought enough good players.
Arsenal will probably never win anything serious under him, maybe some non factor cup/friendly cup, then Arsenal fans read some puff Pr pieces and they will eat it all up and be like "I can see the Progress, Mikel Arteta is a Football god!!!".
He can become a real tactical genius once he continue to spend money on PR and bought enough good players.
Arsenal will probably never win anything serious under him, maybe some non factor cup/friendly cup, then Arsenal fans read some puff Pr pieces and they will eat it all up and be like "I can see the Progress, Mikel Arteta is a Football god!!!".
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Hate to tell you but we've already won something serious under him, unless your 1 of these new age fans that think it's only ever about the league or Champions League?
Yes but we didn't end up winning the league, or becoming a side who could really consistently compete for it either. We won FA cups yes, but it seems like most on here would criticise us for being happy with just FA cups, so not sure how that can be now used as a counter. I rate the FA cup a lot, and I think it's a great thing to win, but the long term goal should be to win leagues.
We need to do something different to go up a level potentially, which in this case is building a strong group together, with a younger profile and a potential higher ceiling. Then hopefully adding a few quality players at the end of it to boost the side.
The approaches are similar in terms of signing less high profile players on lower wages than already world class stars. Liverpools players were more experienced at the time, ours are a bit less experienced. The point is we don't have a Klopp, and there's not really many Klopps around. It would be a bit daft to expect us to just challange for the title this season or last, or next, when we have two of the best sides in PL history with the two best managers in the world competing at their prime.
The aim is to have a group that develops with the manager to get better year on year and eventually get back to that level. I have no issues with us taking that approach, it's logical.
Expecting instant success, which is the approach United took, obviously doesn't seem to work always.
Arsenal had the the poorest start to the season of all 20 teams - so what? Plus, Spurs finished the season with their joint highest points total in the last five years. The idea that last season was some once in a lifetime event where Spurs and United underperformed is rife around here, despite the fact the it really wasn’t anything out that of the ordinary.
This is true. The missing context is that we conceded 9 goals during our first 3 games where we were hit by injuries and COVID. We didn’t actually start our new back line signings (Ramsdale / White / Tomiyasu) until after the international break. Ramsdale actually kept 12 clean sheets in his 34 games which is just behind Mendy. Not brilliant - but also not bad at all.
It’s really not a tough season to decipher. During the run-in we suffered injuries to:
- White
- Tomiyasu
- Tierney
- Partey
- Holding
- Cedric
- Tavares
- El Neny
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All teams can chop and screw their results like this.
"Mikel Arteta has revealed he has been tracking Cedric Soares for a number of seasons after Arsenal pulled off a deadline-day move for the Southampton right-back" - January 2020
" Rob Holding has signed a new long-term contract with us, running until 2024 with an option for a further year. Mikel Arteta added: “Since I started as manager, I have been hugely impressed with Rob’s contribution to the club and the dressing room, on and off the pitch. The quality of his work every day on the training pitches is excellent and he is translating this into consistently high performances in matches. " January 2021
" Midfielder Mohamed Elneny is extending his stay with us. Manager Mikel Arteta said: “Mo is a really important part of the team. He brings endless energy, enthusiasm and commitment to the team and is loved by everyone. He's an important player for us on and off the pitch, a real role model to our younger players and I'm delighted he's staying." May 2022
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Where did you have us finishing last season.
Poor Mikel, betrayed on the pitch by the shit players he *adjusts reading glasses* signed and renewed.
Did you read the very next sentence? It is a specific point made in response to the us buying new defenders but conceding 9 goals more than the season before. I was pointing out that we conceded 9 goals before the new defence ever played together.
All those players have their use in the squad, but they shouldn't be the 2nd choice ones really. Saliba is now 3rd choice CB.
Elneny is still 2nd choice DM, but that isn't too big a deal for me.
Cedric is my worry really. I think he isn't good enough and he will get quite a few minutes too. But equally we have BNC and Walters coming through who are two top RB prospects, so signing another RB this season might not make the best sense longer term when one of those two should be ready next season.
To be fair, selecting the three first, consecutive games of a season isn't chopping much.
You support Real Madrid so you may be unfamiliar with the concept, but sometimes players like:
- Holding (£2m)
- Cedric (Free)
- Tavares (£7m)
- El Neny (£5m)
This is the context that most people seem to ignore.
Are they signing Zinchenko ?
I am starting to wonder if he joined Arsenal to pick up Pep's deadwood
I am starting to wonder if he joined Arsenal to pick up Pep's deadwood
Arsenal finished 8th in 20/21, they were terrible in the first half of the season and began 2021 on 13th place.
So what we are saying here is that if we remove three entire games (8% of all matches) from their 21/22 results, their GA would be the same as the one in a season in which they were bad for half of it. This is not good.
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Real Madrid have a transfer net spend of minus 110 million euros in the last three summers and substituted Dani "not good enough to stay at Arsenal" Ceballos into a Champions League final. They also substituted Jesus "not good enough to even get minutes at Wolves" into a CL semifinal against City. I'm pretty familiar with "making do with what you've got" and not using it as an excuse.
Sums Arsenal fans with Arteta.
Amol, you're better than going down the same illogical route.
Arteta got some initial goodwill with a trophy secured, then with the fact that 20/21 was a Covid disrupted anomaly. 21/22 was a step in the right direction for the most part, but there were some very obvious shortcomings he displayed which will probably prove to be his downfall in the next season or two.
No Arsenal supporter is blind to any of this. The arrogance displayed by United supporters, a side who have struggled as much as us (and have 3-4 cups less to show for that period) is hilarious. You're at our level and suddenly find it galling that "our standards have dropped". I think you'll find we've gone past the entitlement phase. Now it's about good football and another few steps in the right direction before we get to a stage where we challenge - which I don't think is too far off.
Yes indeed, Cebellos coming on for 90 seconds to waste time made him truely a critical player for you last season. And Jesús Vallejo playing 8 minutes over 2 CL games was surely a cornerstone that you had to turn to. Sarcasm mode now OFF.
No, what I’m saying is… what I said.
We conceded the 3rd least goals in 20/21. It was pointed out that we bought a GK, CB and RB and then conceded 9 more goals in 21/22. I provided the context that our revamped back line didn’t play the until our 4th game, by which time we had conceded 9 goals.
What I wrote was relevant to the point that I was replying to.
Also, the first choice defence of Ramdale, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel & Tierney played around 10 league games together, and everyone already admits the replacements aren't good enough.
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Daydreamer, the most important context is that "3rd least goals in 20/21" was never anything to brag about, because Arsenal conceded 39 goals. That's over a goal per game. This is not a good defensive record. There was never a solid defensive base there, which is why adding new defensive players who were ostensibly better didn't actually do much.
On matchday 3 Arsenal played Manchester City away. They only played with 1 player from their first choice defense (Tierney). They conceded 5 goals. That's more than half of the goals they conceded in those first 3 matches.
But on matchday 13 they played Liverpool away. And this time they had 4 of their 5 first choice defenders: Ramsdale, White, Tomiyasu, and Gabriel. And they conceded 4 goals. That is pretty good evidence that having the best defenders unavailable is not the reason why they conceded so many goals in those first matches.
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They are not critical players, indeed: the squad has players that cannot be relied upon, who are not good enough, so they don't play much and the starters play too many minutes. It affects the capability to win titles (for example, falling short on every front in 20/21). This is an explanation, but it's not a weather event. It's not simply a thing that happened. Someone is responsible for it.
The issue here is people keep defending Arteta by saying he had to rebuild a shit squad. But that defense stops being serious when you're also blaming poor results on players he's signed and renewed. It's his squad, and it's very silly to try to blame the squad deficiencies on Arsenal not having enough money.
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Despite the awful quality of football I’m willing to back him this season. Maybe he is actually Pep lite who needs an entire team of his own players to perform after all Pep barely scraped 3rd in his first season at City and only went on to win things when he had his own players and Pep started with a much higher base of player at City than Arteta did at Arsenal.
This has to be the season where the excuses run out. If I was the board I would put a footballing jihad on Arteta : convert this team into an attractive attacking side that qualifies for the CL or die (sacked).
This has to be the season where the excuses run out. If I was the board I would put a footballing jihad on Arteta : convert this team into an attractive attacking side that qualifies for the CL or die (sacked).
Yep.
I'm not even going to bring up Serge Gnabry. Oops, I did.
Not sure what that has to do with Arteta though considering he was still a player when he left.
Was it to highlight your inability to stay on topic?
Topic was Arsenal fans moaning about the players they have to do with and how little they cost.
Still not getting what that has to do with Arteta and the year 2022.
You finished 8th and 8th. At the same time with "the worst manager ever" we finished 3ed and 2ed. Last season was an improvement for you because we had major squad issues and collapsed. Arsenals lowering of expectations from much of the fan base is one of the most bizarre situations in Europe. United's worst ever season in the PL and Arsenal is just one place on top, while you think are improving and going places. Just bizarre stuff.
This thread is all over the place : )
Arteta didn't sign Holding or El Neny. He extended their contracts because that was a sensible thing to do. They're on reasonable wages. Tavares and Cedric cost £7m combined. That's two squad players from previous managers (Holding / El Neny), one raw prospect (Tavares) and a free transfer stop-gap (Cedric). The addition of Zinchenko and the return of Saliba means we shouldn't have to rely on them anymore.
During the run-in we suffered injuries to the areas of our squad where the drop off in quality was the most steep. Had Spurs lost Kane or Son for any amount of time, the wheels would have come off for them because their system relies on them and their replacements are of nowhere near the same quality.
Teams like Real Madrid can both avoid and mitigate the effects of injuries due to the quality of their squad. Holding, Cedric, Tavares and El Neny would not get anywhere near your squad. Me saying you're unfamiliar with the concept of having to "make due with what you've got" was a compliment. Stating that even your time-wasting injury-time subs have 11 caps for Spain proves my point better than I ever could : )
This is a genuine question, why do you care about Arteta so much that you feel compelled to (unsuccessfully) downplay the quality of your squad? I'm an Arsenal fan - I know why I care. But I can't imagine being a Real Madrid fan and being interested enough in Arteta to try and use a late Ceballos substitute appearance as a stick to beat him with. For me, that would be like hanging around in a Brendan Rogers thread. I don't particularly rate Rogers... but I don't care about him either. For real, I'm just interested - I'm seriously not trying to antagonise.
This would be a relevant point if anyone was pointing to our 20/21 defensive record as a reason for sticking with Arteta in 22/23. But nobody was.
Leaving aside the fact that Salah tore Tavares apart that day - this would be relevant if anybody said we only concede goals when our best defenders are unavailable. But nobody did.
This would be relevant if anyone said that this isn't his squad and that our deficiencies are due to a lack of money. But nobody did.
Arteta didn't sign Holding or El Neny. He extended their contracts because that was a sensible thing to do. They're on reasonable wages. Tavares and Cedric cost £7m combined. That's two squad players from previous managers (Holding / El Neny), one raw prospect (Tavares) and a free transfer stop-gap (Cedric). The addition of Zinchenko and the return of Saliba means we shouldn't have to rely on them anymore.
During the run-in we suffered injuries to the areas of our squad where the drop off in quality was the most steep. Had Spurs lost Kane or Son for any amount of time, the wheels would have come off for them because their system relies on them and their replacements are of nowhere near the same quality.
Teams like Real Madrid can both avoid and mitigate the effects of injuries due to the quality of their squad. Holding, Cedric, Tavares and El Neny would not get anywhere near your squad. Me saying you're unfamiliar with the concept of having to "make due with what you've got" was a compliment. Stating that even your time-wasting injury-time subs have 11 caps for Spain proves my point better than I ever could : )
This is a genuine question, why do you care about Arteta so much that you feel compelled to (unsuccessfully) downplay the quality of your squad? I'm an Arsenal fan - I know why I care. But I can't imagine being a Real Madrid fan and being interested enough in Arteta to try and use a late Ceballos substitute appearance as a stick to beat him with. For me, that would be like hanging around in a Brendan Rogers thread. I don't particularly rate Rogers... but I don't care about him either. For real, I'm just interested - I'm seriously not trying to antagonise.
You've been deteriorating for years. Our banter years and we still have 4 cups to show for them, while you're responsible for more people discovering schadenfreude every season.
In my opinion, if it is sensible to renew a player's contract, it is not sensible to blame them for poor performances on account that they're not good enough.