Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[Powderfinger]

People were talking in a similar way about Spurs under Pochettino after a couple of "title races" and the run to the CL final, then the wheels came off completely.

Even Klopp's Liverpool found themselves scrambling for a CL spot the year after winning the title, and finishing fifth last season.

It could obviously go either way, but it's not like it's complete conjecture to think they won't amount to too much based on the respective records of Arteta as a manager and Arsenal as a club.

Any club can have a season totally derailed by injury. And until Arsenal win something big, there will always be questions about getting over the hump.

But I think Arteta is a far better manager than Pochettino and that Arsenal as a club are much more invested in a long term project than Spurs were at the time. Arsenal's 22-23 season was akin to Spurs 16-17 in that a mid 80s point season came a bit out of nowhere and depended on everything clicking with a group of young players. Spurs reacted to that "leap" season by selling one of their best players (Walker) to a rival and then the following summer not buying a single player. Arsenal reacted to their "leap" season by buying Rice, Havertz, Raya, and Timber and by all indications we will be aggressive again in the market this summer.

Still need to win things and still could have it all fall apart. But the club is much more serious than Spurs ever were about actually trying to win.

 

[Egalitard]

yes in that respect spurs' stadium project couldn't have come at a worse time for them. hehe

 

[Mike Smalling]

People were talking in a similar way about Spurs under Pochettino after a couple of "title races" and the run to the CL final, then the wheels came off completely.

Even Klopp's Liverpool found themselves scrambling for a CL spot the year after winning the title, and finishing fifth last season.

It could obviously go either way, but it's not like it's complete conjecture to think they won't amount to too much based on the respective records of Arteta as a manager and Arsenal as a club.

Of course, no-one can ever predict what will happen. I'm just saying Arsenal seems to be in a fundamentally good place to progress from.

And I don't really buy the whole thing about Arsenal's history. Yes, they had some bad years under Wenger and after, but even then they got a few cups - even Arteta has one. Liverpool came out of their terrible spell by first coming pretty close under Rodgers and then stepping up with Klopp. Don't see why Arsenal couldn't potentially do the same.

 

[Changeisgood]

The new stadium was not a good thing looking back or at least the timing of it. It's all hindsight because they couldn't really have predicted everything that would happen. It stopped us from getting and keeping the players we needed to compete at a time where Chelsea and then later City were coming in to just splash unearned (at least by the club) moneys around. It did make us uncompetitive for quite a while and the additional stadium revenues were nowhere near the explosion of potential revenue streams generated from merchandising/advertising and tv.

Took us the greater part of a decade to make our way back...Not sure how Arteta would have done in the last ten of the Wenger years. I do think although still a work in progress, he is tactically superior already but I really loved our brand of football under Wenger.

 

[Alex99]

Of course, no-one can ever predict what will happen. I'm just saying Arsenal seems to be in a fundamentally good place to progress from.

And I don't really buy the whole thing about Arsenal's history. Yes, they had some bad years under Wenger and after, but even then they got a few cups - even Arteta has one. Liverpool came out of their terrible spell by first coming pretty close under Rodgers and then stepping up with Klopp. Don't see why Arsenal couldn't potentially do the same.

Dalglish won a cup with Liverpool during their worst spell. I'm just not putting much stock in Arteta managing one FA Cup win.

As I said, it could go either way, I just don't think it's a mystery why some people are predicting it's not going to go very far, even if they look in a good place at the moment.

Any club can have a season totally derailed by injury. And until Arsenal win something big, there will always be questions about getting over the hump.

But I think Arteta is a far better manager than Pochettino and that Arsenal as a club are much more invested in a long term project than Spurs were at the time. Arsenal's 22-23 season was akin to Spurs 16-17 in that a mid 80s point season came a bit out of nowhere and depended on everything clicking with a group of young players. Spurs reacted to that "leap" season by selling one of their best players (Walker) to a rival and then the following summer not buying a single player. Arsenal reacted to their "leap" season by buying Rice, Havertz, Raya, and Timber and by all indications we will be aggressive again in the market this summer.

Still need to win things and still could have it all fall apart. But the club is much more serious than Spurs ever were about actually trying to win.

Can't say there's much separating Pochettino at Spurs and Arteta now, for me.

I also think it's a bit unfair to say Spurs weren't committed to a long-term project. Pochettino was sacked in his sixth season at the club. Transfer strategy was obviously botched at Spurs, but they did spend £40 million on Davinson Sanchez and £25 million each on Aurier and Moura, the season after the "leap" so it's not like they didn't invest, even if they did lose Walker. They also reached the CL final the season they didn't buy anyone, then chucked £55 million at Ndombele, and a further £50 million on Bergwijn and Sessengon. It's important to remember they were in the process of moving stadiums at this time, and lord knows we heard enough from Arsenal fans about how their move from Highbury affected their ability to spend. We're also yet to see how Arsenal and their players react to interest from other clubs.

I also think it's unfair to say Spurs weren't serious about trying to win (or at least that Arsenal are "much more serious" about it). The Mourinho hiring was quite literally an attempt at using Pochettino's foundations to achieve success as quickly as possible. It was a bad strategy to achieve that goal, but the goal was the same nonetheless.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Spurs has higher revenue than Arsenal at the moment. I remember it is about 100 million more. Their wage to revenue ratio is also below 50%. They are well managed.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Any club can have a season totally derailed by injury. And until Arsenal win something big, there will always be questions about getting over the hump.

But I think Arteta is a far better manager than Pochettino and that Arsenal as a club are much more invested in a long term project than Spurs were at the time. Arsenal's 22-23 season was akin to Spurs 16-17 in that a mid 80s point season came a bit out of nowhere and depended on everything clicking with a group of young players. Spurs reacted to that "leap" season by selling one of their best players (Walker) to a rival and then the following summer not buying a single player. Arsenal reacted to their "leap" season by buying Rice, Havertz, Raya, and Timber and by all indications we will be aggressive again in the market this summer.

Still need to win things and still could have it all fall apart. But the club is much more serious than Spurs ever were about actually trying to win.

Looking back at their squads now, Poch did brilliantly to still finish 3rd and 4th despite spending nothing after that leap year until the wheels finally came off in his final season, after the CL final heartbreak. That has to be a testament to the work Poch did there, despite being hamstrung by a terrible owner and structure.

 

[Powderfinger]

Looking back at their squads now, Poch did brilliantly to still finish 3rd and 4th despite spending nothing after that leap year until the wheels finally came off in his final season, after the CL final heartbreak. That has to be a testament to the work Poch did there, despite being hamstrung by a terrible owner and structure.

Yeah, that was also the time when Pep and Klopp's projects were really revving into gear (and also one really good year for Mourinho before his usual implosion) so the competition was serious too.

I don't rate Poch that highly but Levy screwed him for sure.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Looking back at their squads now, Poch did brilliantly to still finish 3rd and 4th despite spending nothing after that leap year until the wheels finally came off in his final season, after the CL final heartbreak. That has to be a testament to the work Poch did there, despite being hamstrung by a terrible owner and structure.

Spurs has a new stadium, new training ground, live within their mean, without external investment, currently fifth in the table, higher revenue than Arsenal and Chelsea, only behind City, United and Liverpool in EPL. If this is a terrible owner then so be it.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Spurs has a new stadium, new training ground, live within their mean, without external investment, currently fifth in the table, higher revenue than Arsenal and Chelsea, only behind City, United and Liverpool in EPL. If this is a terrible owner then so be it.

It's a terrible owner for a manager who has title ambitions. You know perfectly well what that poster meant. There's being reasonable and living within your means, and then there's Levy. Let's not suddenly make out like he's a good owner to work with as a manager.

 

[Donaldo]

Spurs could have dropped into West Ham uncertainty very easily, tbf. That they didn't was down to some long term thinking.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

It's a terrible owner for a manager who has title ambitions. You know perfectly well what that poster meant. There's being reasonable and living within your means, and then there's Levy. Let's not suddenly make out like he's a good owner to work with as a manager.

As a head coach you work with what you have in the first team/club. Just like Xabi Alonso in Leverkusen, Emery in Aston Villa, De Zerbi in Brighton, Conceicao in Porto, and Inzaghi in Inter. There is always constraint for head coach in most of the clubs.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Laughable takes on Levy, seriously. The best part is that they're coming from Arsenal fans!

 

[mu4c_20le]

Aye Levy's been great, kept them well fed and sheltered all these years.

 

[The Corinthian]

Laughable takes on Levy, seriously. The best part is that they're coming from Arsenal fans!

They're a weird bunch. It takes some doing to outdo Scouse delusions, but these Arsenal fans are doing it.

 

[WeePat]

Of course, no-one can ever predict what will happen. I'm just saying Arsenal seems to be in a fundamentally good place to progress from.

And I don't really buy the whole thing about Arsenal's history. Yes, they had some bad years under Wenger and after, but even then they got a few cups - even Arteta has one. Liverpool came out of their terrible spell by first coming pretty close under Rodgers and then stepping up with Klopp. Don't see why Arsenal couldn't potentially do the same.

This current version of Arsenal under Arteta has nothing to do with Wenger era Arsenal to be honest. Emery was the buffer between the two eras and he tried to make it work with the leftovers from Wenger's team while Arteta has been allowed to dismantle the squad as he saw fit and rebuild it in his image. This is his team and he's done a damn good job of it.

There was a time where I had convinced myself he was a dud but you have to respect the job he's done. He's overhauled the entire squad and he's a built a young, super talented and hungry team that is capable of challenging for the title. Whether he wins the title or not is a different question. He's up against Pep and City. Even Klopp has only managed it once in 7 years and he's considered one top 2/3 coach in the world with a legendary reputation. People often forget this is Arteta's first managerial job. He's only 4 years into his career. It's basically as good a start to his career that any manager could hope for considering the context and circumstances he walked into.

I have family and friends are still not convinced by him. I spend most weekends arguing with them about him where I'm the one defending their manager

 

[Wengerista]

Don’t believe the accusations based on history. Sure Arteta is a bit jumpy, but I can’t see him disrespecting someone’s family?

Porto manager also accused Tuchel and Pep by the way.

I reckon all both Spanish coaches just said 'hijo de puta'

Somebody could spin it as ''he called my mother a bitch/whore'' if they wanted to be a bad faith drama queen, but it's really more a generic insult.

But no idea about Tuchel as he doesn't really fit with the theory...

 

[Egalitard]

This current version of Arsenal under Arteta has nothing to do with Wenger era Arsenal to be honest. Emery was the buffer between the two eras and he tried to make it work with the leftovers from Wenger's team while Arteta has been allowed to dismantle the squad as he saw fit and rebuild it in his image. This is his team and he's done a damn good job of it.

This is completely correct, and it's also why most Arsenal fans' analysis of Emery is quite unfair. He wasn't right but he actually did pretty well given that we ended up having to pay 8 or 9 of those players to go away. Arteta was given the time and resources to totally overhaul the squad and as you say, has done a great job of that (with a fair amount of help from Edu et al). Most managers don't get that. It'll be very interesting to see how he gets on in his next job, where the circumstances might be different.

 

[jeff gurr]

Spurs has a new stadium, new training ground, live within their mean, without external investment, currently fifth in the table, higher revenue than Arsenal and Chelsea, only behind City, United and Liverpool in EPL. If this is a terrible owner then so be it.

I agree. The Spurs fan base have been very critical of the ownership & management group but in truth, they are in very good shape financially while being in top four contention. A lot of clubs could learn from them !!

 

[Donaldo]

Laughable takes on Levy, seriously. The best part is that they're coming from Arsenal fans!

Couldn't care less about Levy, always found him a smarmy little corporate at worst. He outlived his usefulness at Spurs a while ago so I'm happy they continue to be the nearly theres because of that inaction.

 

[Egalitard]

Since then it's been basically an upward trajectory to becoming one of the best teams in Europe.

hmm

Well we'll easily beat Porto and then let's see who we get in the quarters.

idiot

I want to eat some humble pie - the Champions League is a different beast. I had forgotten - or I'd just not paid attention for 7 years and the level is just insane now. I watched Atletico-Inter last night and found the thought of us playing either of them a bit stomach-churning.

We've got a really good team but it's very young and inexperienced. One of the best in Europe? Alright, I'll back down. Nope. (Not yet anyway...)

 

[Grande]

hmm


idiot

I want to eat some humble pie - the Champions League is a different beast. I had forgotten - or I'd just not paid attention for 7 years and the level is just insane now. I watched Atletico-Inter last night and found the thought of us playing either of them a bit stomach-churning.

We've got a really good team but it's very young and inexperienced. One of the best in Europe? Alright, I'll back down. Nope. (Not yet anyway...)

I take my hat of (before I’ll eat it).

I think it’s important as well that the feel and style of playing in Europe is different than that of the PL. It takes getting used to, which is part of why the same teams do well in particular European cups year after year often not corresponding to how they do in their home leagues.

Sevilla’s knack of winning the Europa league is just a very cute and weird example of that. If you look at so many of the teams they have beaten in their different EL romps (Klopp’s Liverpool, United several times, Conte’s Inter etc etc), many teams have had every tight to beat them looking at Sevilla’s league form and their own from comparable leagues. It just doesn’t work like that.

Arsenal beating Porto on pens really isn’t more impressive than United losing to Villarreal on pens, but it’s that learning experience that will take the current Arsenal lot closer and closer to the confidence and street smartness teams like Liverpool and Atletico show in that tournament.

 

[Grande]

This is completely correct, and it's also why most Arsenal fans' analysis of Emery is quite unfair. He wasn't right but he actually did pretty well given that we ended up having to pay 8 or 9 of those players to go away. Arteta was given the time and resources to totally overhaul the squad and as you say, has done a great job of that (with a fair amount of help from Edu et al). Most managers don't get that. It'll be very interesting to see how he gets on in his next job, where the circumstances might be different.

Arsenal seem to me two or three years ahead of United in that respect, whereas Solskjær was ahead of Arteta for most of his reign. The difference seems to be the sound processes coming from the top at Arsenal, whereas this is only now starting to happen at United.

 

[Blood Mage]

He was likeable as a player, not sure why he turned into such a cnut as a coach.

 

[Egalitard]

Arsenal seem to me two or three years ahead of United in that respect, whereas Solskjær was ahead of Arteta for most of his reign. The difference seems to be the sound processes coming from the top at Arsenal, whereas this is only now starting to happen at United.

Agreed. I made the point in the Ten Hag thread that the culling of players is something Arsenal were ruthless enough to do, but not United. Maguire is one example, United wanted to get rid of him but baulked over £7m (if reporting was accurate). Compare with Arsenal who wrote off a £72m player in Nicolas Pepe, rather than having him take up space on the fringes of the squad. United might get there eventually but Edu's "shock doctrine" approach of paying off Pepe, Ozil, Aubameyang, Sokratis, Mustafi, Mkhitaryan, Bellerin, Kolasinac and Willian* has helped us to exchange a short-term financial hit for a much lower wage bill and a squad moulded by the manager.

*Unaccountably, Cedric Soares has survived multiple attempts to remove him. He is like Rasputin or something.

 

[AndrewMac]

He was likeable as a player, not sure why he turned into such a cnut as a coach.

Generally comes across as very nasty and mean spirited. Something wrong there, because as you say as a player he was quite a calm relaxed guy.

 

[Donaldo]

Comes across as Scrappy Doo more than Dick Dastardly. The manager equivalent of Jack Wilshere.

 

[Grande]

Agreed. I made the point in the Ten Hag thread that the culling of players is something Arsenal were ruthless enough to do, but not United. Maguire is one example, United wanted to get rid of him but baulked over £7m (if reporting was accurate). Compare with Arsenal who wrote off a £72m player in Nicolas Pepe, rather than having him take up space on the fringes of the squad. United might get there eventually but Edu's "shock doctrine" approach of paying off Pepe, Ozil, Aubameyang, Sokratis, Mustafi, Mkhitaryan, Bellerin, Kolasinac and Willian* has helped us to exchange a short-term financial hit for a much lower wage bill and a squad moulded by the manager.

*Unaccountably, Cedric Soares has survived multiple attempts to remove him. He is like Rasputin or something.

Yes, and this requires a board/ceo/dof with a clear footballing idea, alligned with a head coach/manager they believe in and who see eye to eye. We will never know if Solskjær had that potential (working in tandem with Carrick/McKenna), it could be argued either way. Most of us didn’t believe Arteta was that coach for Arsenal after consecutive no eight finishes, but the board/edu saw his potential day to day, stuck to him, and were right. At United we hire coaches we don’t believe in when results are bad and fans and media get restless and cranky, because the leaders know nothing about football. It’s full backing one season, no backing the next. We need to get out of that rat hole by having knowledgeable people who can see the potential of the right manager, support his needs and stick to him through the tough periods despite idiots like us (fans) and the knee jerk ex-player know-it-alls who say ‘we didn’t do it like that in the nineties, and see where it brought us’ (Scholesy, Keano, Gaz The Dragon, Rio - I’m looking at you guys!).

I have my fingers crossed.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I take my hat of (before I’ll eat it).

I think it’s important as well that the feel and style of playing in Europe is different than that of the PL. It takes getting used to, which is part of why the same teams do well in particular European cups year after year often not corresponding to how they do in their home leagues.

Sevilla’s knack of winning the Europa league is just a very cute and weird example of that. If you look at so many of the teams they have beaten in their different EL romps (Klopp’s Liverpool, United several times, Conte’s Inter etc etc), many teams have had every tight to beat them looking at Sevilla’s league form and their own from comparable leagues. It just doesn’t work like that.

Arsenal beating Porto on pens really isn’t more impressive than United losing to Villarreal on pens, but it’s that learning experience that will take the current Arsenal lot closer and closer to the confidence and street smartness teams like Liverpool and Atletico show in that tournament.

Fair enough. In general, what was said in response to your posts (and maybe other Arsenal fans) in relation to being "one of the best teams in Europe" due to current performances and underlying metrics and the such, is that it's a bit premature for this side. Proving year after year that you're running for titles is where you prove this. There's a good core in the team, whether or not they'll fulfil their potential as a league/titles winning team remains to be seen, and it's not posturing on an online forum that will have any effect on that.

 

[SilentWitness]

hmm


idiot

I want to eat some humble pie - the Champions League is a different beast. I had forgotten - or I'd just not paid attention for 7 years and the level is just insane now. I watched Atletico-Inter last night and found the thought of us playing either of them a bit stomach-churning.

We've got a really good team but it's very young and inexperienced. One of the best in Europe? Alright, I'll back down. Nope. (Not yet anyway...)

I was hoping you lost so I could come in and laugh but that's some good self reflection.

 

[Teja]

but I really loved our brand of football under Wenger

I think this is generally true for every side - football was more fun before the Pep revolution. Now it's just robots doing the same things over and over again. I hope the Brazilian school of thought wins out here and kills positional play.

 

[Teja]

We've got a really good team but it's very young and inexperienced. One of the best in Europe? Alright, I'll back down. Nope. (Not yet anyway...)

The bookie odds do a pretty good job at capturing if you're the favorites or not and certainly they think Arsenal has more of a chance to win the thing than Inter / Atleti.

 

[Grande]

Fair enough. In general, what was said in response to your posts (and maybe other Arsenal fans) in relation to being "one of the best teams in Europe" due to current performances and underlying metrics and the such, is that it's a bit premature for this side. Proving year after year that you're running for titles is where you prove this. There's a good core in the team, whether or not they'll fulfil their potential as a league/titles winning team remains to be seen, and it's not posturing on an online forum that will have any effect on that.

Is it possible you answered the wrong post(er) here?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Is it possible you answered the wrong post(er) here?

Yes

 

[mathrait]

https://theathletic.com/5395284/2024/04/12/playing-against-arsenal/

Interesting read on other coaches experience playing Arteta's team. Highlights how crucial Rice is to the system.

 

[TheReligion]

Absolute cowards

 

[Toshey]

He'll bottle it again won't he

 

[Mike Smalling]

Spoiler: Heart and brain

Did he misplace the special drawing? Arsenals have been missing something today.

 

[100]

Watching some of the running the likes of Odegaard has been doing this season never looked sustainable. Eventually showed in that second half.

 

[Scandi Red]

Spoiler: Heart and brain

Did he misplace the special drawing? Arsenals have been missing something today.

Is that the original? Very meme-able format.