Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[RacingClub]

I'm not an Arsenal fan but I'd expect them to build on the points total of last season (69) and for the signings to make up for the squad deficiencies (which was what made them miss out on 4th IMO).

They should have a decent cup run (semis/final of any) to coincide with that too.

Falling into the Europa Conference league for example would be a massive disaster IMO and would/should probably cost him his job.

Scenario A) If he hits 74 points and the threshold for 4th is 78 I'd say that's just bad luck and that he should be given another season.

Scenario B) If he hits 66 and that gets him 4th I would question why the points total dropped even though he's been backed in the summer and would have to assume there's been massive implosions at other clubs which allowed him to sneak in.

In Scenario B (Although I wouldn't sack him) I would be more prepared to think about the long term future with Arteta because (as of right now) I believe there should be probably points 5/6 points improvement, whether that's enough to secure Champions League remains to be seen.

 

[RacingClub]

If anyone thought our squad was on par with Liverpool and City at the start of last season, they are fecking mental. I'm guessing you rate a-lot of your players higher than ours - so there you go. Also, Ole came off a very underwhelming 74 points 2nd place finish.

All true.

We expected a title challenge, because otherwise what is the point?

But considering everything you wrote before .. Worse manager than 3 others , Worse squad than at least 2 others and the fact your 2nd place finish was just 74 points.. Doesn't that sound... Delusional?

Wouldn't someone reasonable who had all that available data say "I don't expect us to challenge for the title, due to XYZ but we should be solidly in the top 4, probably reach a cup final and quarters/ semis of the champions league".

If the purpose of being a football fan is to just blindly expect things that your club should be achieving (ignoring the things you know about you and your competition) then I don't know why the Arsenal fans are called delusional constantly because it seems to be a prerequisite to being a fan of the sport.

 

[Robbie Boy]

But considering everything you wrote before .. Worse manager than 3 others , Worse squad than at least 2 others and the fact your 2nd place finish was just 74 points.. Doesn't that sound... Delusional?

In hindsight, yes.

Fans have every right to get giddy, though.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Still need to ship out Pepe and bring in a right winger to rotate/compete with Saka.

 

[awop]

Still need to ship out Pepe and bring in a right winger to rotate/compete with Saka.

We're going to take a massive hit on him. The only link was Sevilla and it was barely over 20M... They're going to receive the Kounde money soon but i doubt they'll splash a third of it on Pepe after having a taste of Martial.
I think this will end with a loan + option to buy either to them or Marseille with neither able to take up the option.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

We're going to take a massive hit on him.

It is the price to pay for bad transfer/bad scouting. Arsenal has been really bad on this front for the past 10 years.

 

[GoonerBear]

It is the price to pay for bad transfer/bad scouting. Arsenal has been really bad on this front for the past 10 years.

Going from Wenger & Gazidas on borrowed time, to the mixed up regime which had Mislintat and Sanllehi with Emery, then on to Edu & Arteta all within a few years of each other certainly won't have helped.

Think we needed that bit of continuity that Edu & Arteta have provided, just so they're all working to a joined up plan.

 

[OneUnited24]

I'm not an Arsenal fan but I'd expect them to build on the points total of last season (69) and for the signings to make up for the squad deficiencies (which was what made them miss out on 4th IMO).

I just can’t see them bettering last seasons tally. Namely because of the number of games they will have next season. In the second half of the last campaign they played once a week, and very favourable break periods to recover when everyone else around them was playing in a jam packed schedule. I recall in Jan and Feb they played a total of 3-5 games.

Now that wasn’t their fault but it highlights how favourable the conditions were and how they benefited. Next season they have brought in a few more players but i still don’t think they’ll better last season. Mainly because I don’t rate their manager.

 

[Mastadon]

I expect a significant improvement in the quality of football the Arteta era has been painfully boring to watch. If we continue playing his Mourinho lite brand of football then we need success because the only justification for shit football is if it wins trophies. Enough excuses for Arteta he’s been backed to the hilt and he’s been given time and he has the squad to make top 4. So far all he has to show for his time at Arsenal Is an FA Cup that he won thanks to Aubameyangs incredible finishing where he was putting away half chances in games we were dominated in. Expecting him to either deliver or be shown the door this season.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Think we needed that bit of continuity that Edu & Arteta have provided, just so they're all working to a joined up plan.

A plan to finish 8th, 5th, 5th? I doubt Arsenal will make top 4 once again.

I can't wait for more Arteta excuses.

 

[SilentWitness]

A plan to finish 8th, 5th, 5th? I doubt Arsenal will make top 4 once again.

I can't wait for more Arteta excuses.

I think you'd say they've steadily progressed though, no?

You went 6th -> 3rd -> 2nd -> 6th. Despite the 3rd and 2nd placed finishes I don't think you've 'progressed' as a club or squad in the same respects that Arsenal have in that period.

 

[GoonerBear]

A plan to finish 8th, 5th, 5th? I doubt Arsenal will make top 4 once again.

I can't wait for more Arteta excuses.

We've went from 56 points, to 58 points to 69 points. That's some sort of progression at least. So fans and board are generally content if they see progression. So I want to see more progression this year.

If things hit a stalemate, or even worse regress, then yeah, he should go. That's the same with most clubs, no?

 

[cyberman]

I think you'd say they've steadily progressed though, no?

You went 6th -> 3rd -> 2nd -> 6th. Despite the 3rd and 2nd placed finishes I don't think you've 'progressed' as a club or squad in the same respects that Arsenal have in that period.

I don’t think this makes much sense, I’ll be honest. Going from 8th to 5th isn’t better than that run. I think that’s 5th after two 8th place finishes.

 

[GifLord]

We've went from 56 points, to 58 points to 69 points. That's some sort of progression at least. So fans and board are generally content if they see progression. So I want to see more progression this year.

If things hit a stalemate, or even worse regress, then yeah, he should go. That's the same with most clubs, no?

With no European cup competition - no tough away travels. Out of all domestic cups in January and yet he still bottled the top 4 race.

 

[SilentWitness]

I don’t think this makes much sense, I’ll be honest. Going from 8th to 5th isn’t better than that run. I think that’s 5th after two 8th place finishes.

I didn't say it is better though. Progression and better can be two different things.

You could finish 5th and then 6th but have progressed more as a team which gives you a platform for the future. Take Klopp and Liverpool for example, they finished 4th back to back from 16-17 to 17-18. They had less points total in 17-18 but I'd argue they progressed and next year won the CL and the PL the year after.

 

[Red the Bear]

I think you'd say they've steadily progressed though, no?

You went 6th -> 3rd -> 2nd -> 6th. Despite the 3rd and 2nd placed finishes I don't think you've 'progressed' as a club or squad in the same respects that Arsenal have in that period.

I think there's a bit of hindsight going on in this post, would you have said the same last season when we bought 3 new solid players and seemed poise to build on the momentum?

I feel a lot of the same is Goin on with Arsenal at the moment, its basically emperors new clothes, watch them collapse come start of the season.

 

[cyberman]

I didn't say it is better though. Progression and better can be two different things.

You could finish 5th and then 6th but have progressed more as a team which gives you a platform for the future. Take Klopp and Liverpool for example, they finished 4th back to back from 16-17 to 17-18. They had less points total in 17-18 but I'd argue they progressed and next year won the CL and the PL the year after.

Your list has us going from 6th to 3rd to second.
Surely that’s better than 8th to 8th to 5th? Then the argument stands that the fifth came with no European football and one game a week.

 

[SilentWitness]

Your list has us going from 6th to 3rd to second.
Surely that’s better than 8th to 8th to 5th? Then the argument stands that the fifth came with no European football and one game a week.

You're not reading what I'm saying.

You went from 6th to 3rd to 2nd which is better in terms of league position but did you actually progress as a club? I wouldn't say so. You didn't address the central midfield and defensive issues, you didn't address the high wages of your players and extortionate fees you were paying, you didn't address a lot of things in the club or squad. I wouldn't say you have progressed much in that regard at all. In comparison, Arsenal are addressing the issues in their squad with their signings, they have been addressing the elder Kroenke mismanagement etc. They have a very young squad which is full of potential. I do agree that this season for them is vital and key to that progression however. If they don't finish top 4 it will be very disappointing.

ETH looks like he, along with the new backroom staff are trying to do that and make sure the club progresses.

 

[danamann]

When I get frustrated with our transfer business I look at Arsenal and immediately feel better. A bang average coach, buying bang average players for incredibly inflated prices. It’s crazy to me how the arsenal board put all their trust and money in a completely unproven and underperforming manager.

 

[cyberman]

You're not reading what I'm saying.

I do? You don’t go from 6th to 3rd and Second in the Klopp / Pep era (which includes a CL winning side in Chelsea finishing behind us as well) without a huge jump in quality and progression from that initial 6th placed finish.
Unless the argument is Arsenal looked less calamitous than normal and that’s somehow better?
I just don’t see it with this Arsenal side.
I’ll try to explain it better this way. 8th place was so bad for them (twice!)that any sort of improvement in any area would see them slightly raise up their level. That’s not really progression, that’s just being slightly less shit than their usual and being allowed to keep their stars fit with 1 game a week.
Utd will be a good example of this. We were so bad last season that the slightest bit of coaching that follows on from a found out Ole to a director of football should see us becoming less of a meme side next season. People will laud Ten Hag for it but it will simply be a result of still not doing what we need to do to a high level, just that little bit less.
Everton will be a shining example of this as well. You only look up from rock bottom.

 

[SilentWitness]

I do? You don’t go from 6th to 3rd and Second in the Klopp / Pep era (which includes a CL winning side in Chelsea finishing behind us as well) without a huge jump in quality and progression from that initial 6th placed finish.
Unless the argument is Arsenal looked less calamitous than normal and that’s somehow better?
I just don’t see it with this Arsenal side.
I’ll try to explain it better this way. 8th place was so bad for them (twice!)that any sort of improvement in any area would see them slightly raise up their level. That’s not really progression, that’s just being slightly less shit than their usual and being allowed to keep their stars fit with 1 game a week.
Utd will be a good example of this. We were so bad last season that the slightest bit of coaching that follows on from a found out Ole to a director of football should see us becoming less of a meme side next season. People will laud Ten Hag for it but it will simply be a result of still not doing what we need to do to a high level, just that little bit less.
Everton will be a shining example of this as well. You only look up from rock bottom.

That's fair, progression is a subjective thing. Better in terms of league position is factual. Time and hindsight will tell what happens with Arsenal but I think they're making the right movements and even if Arteta fails I think they've put themselves in a good position for the next manager to take over. With United each manager is having to come in and completely change the squad/style of play.

 

[GoonerBear]

With no European cup competition - no tough away travels. Out of all domestic cups in January and yet he still bottled the top 4 race.

He did make a domestic cup semi final of course, your wording suggests he got pumped out of both early doors.

Like I said, it's progression. If there's not further progression this year even with European football then he'll quite rightly be under big pressure. No different from anyone else.

Edit: By the way, how do you measure if a manager 'bottles' top 4?

 

[GifLord]

He did make a domestic cup semi final of course, your wording suggests he got pumped out of both early doors.

Like I said, it's progression. If there's not further progression this year even with European football then he'll quite rightly be under big pressure. No different from anyone else.

Edit: By the way, how do you measure if a manager 'bottles' top 4?

You were out of all cups at the end of January meaning while other clubs were fighting for top places and were still in european competitions your manager was complaining about match congestion despite only having the league to play for.

Were you not 2 points ahead of spurs with 5 games to go? And then lost 2 games in a row one being a north London derby.
In March you were 6 points ahead of them with a game in hand

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I don't know if Utd bottled it like this i'd be fuming yet Arsenal fans seem content.

 

[GoonerBear]

You were out of all cups at the end of January meaning while other clubs were fighting for top places and were still in european competitions your manager was complaining about match congestion despite only having the league to play for.

Were you not 2 points ahead of spurs with 5 games to go? And then lost 2 games in a row one being a north London derby.
In March you were 6 points ahead of them with a game in hand

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I don't know if Utd bottled it like this i'd be fuming yet Arsenal fans seem content.

Spurs the only team we were really competing against had what, 1 FA Cup game in February & 1 in March. Didn't have European football after December either.

I still don't know how a manager bottles it though, you didn't quite explain? The players bottling it, perhaps. In then end our squad just wasn't good enough. Spurs added 2 significant players, we let players go and didn't replace. Lessons need to be learned, sure. Hopefully squad depth is 1 of the issues we are trying to resolve this window.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

You were out of all cups at the end of January meaning while other clubs were fighting for top places and were still in european competitions your manager was complaining about match congestion despite only having the league to play for.

Were you not 2 points ahead of spurs with 5 games to go? And then lost 2 games in a row one being a north London derby.
In March you were 6 points ahead of them with a game in hand

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I don't know if Utd bottled it like this i'd be fuming yet Arsenal fans seem content.

And I have no explanation as to why, beyond the fact that he's massively lowered standards because it was a completely nothing season. That they express hope for the future and the coming season makes complete sense of course, I totally get that, but I have no idea why they try to paint last season as anything else than completely underwhelming, especially considering how things were going around March/April.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I don’t know how he thinks he’ll outcompete city by signing all their spare parts. Looks like he is buying and building for top 4 rather than a title run.

 

[GoonerBear]

And I have no explanation as to why, beyond the fact that he's massively lowered standards because it was a completely nothing season. That they express hope for the future and the coming season makes complete sense of course, I totally get that, but I have no idea why they try to paint last season as anything else than completely underwhelming, especially considering how things were going around March/April.

I don't get why people say Arteta has lowered standards. Arsenal themselves in their performances over the last 6 or 7 years has lowered standards. We haven't finished top 4 for what, 6 or 7 years now? That's not all on Arteta. We want to get back in the Champions League, we nearly done it last season, but failed at the last hurdle. Let's see if he can improve the team and squad further to try and go at least 1 better. If not he'll be under pressure, the way it should be.

Ultimately though, 2 big clubs are going to miss out every year. That's the reality, well of course 1 if that 5th spot opens up most seasons.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I don't get why people say Arteta has lowered standards.

I mean... the past couple of years and this thread is a pretty comprehensive explanation of that.

 

[GoonerBear]

I mean... the past couple of years and this thread is a pretty comprehensive explanation of that.

But like I said, standards were lowered before that. We've not won a title in coming up for 20 years, not even competed for 1 in 15 years. Not made top 4 even for 6 or 7 years.

 

[Amarsdd]

But like I said, standards were lowered before that. We've not won a title in coming up for 20 years, not even competed for 1 in 15 years. Not made top 4 even for 6 or 7 years.

I suppose by "lowering standards" what everyone means here is that even during Emery's time Arsenal fans were expecting to get top four or at least targetting that but since Arteta that no longer seems to be that. When Arsenal finished 8th under Arteta (the full season) playing horrible football, I don't think there was a huge outroar for him to get sacked and there were always excuses that the team is young and what not. Even last season, finishing 5th (after having total control of the 4th spot for a long time and no european football) most Arsenal fans saw it as a "good" season, a season of improvement. And this season, do the Arsenal fans have a minimum expection of getting a top four finish? I don't see it, they just want to be challenging for that. So, in that sense, standards went from playing good football and at least getting top four to now playing alright football and challenging for top four.
Again, this is from the pov of a United supporter, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Irwin99]

Last chance for him surely. I can't imagine Arsenal fans being any more patient if he goes through a bad run of form this season. He needs to have a very good start to the season and to maintain it.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Sometimes fans expectation may not be realistic. As of now given the resource Arsenal has and also the teams we are competing with, Arsenal is just a team fighting for a 4th spot.

 

[Bale Bale Bale]

It’s crazy to me how the arsenal board put all their trust and money in a completely unproven and underperforming manager.

Unproven yes but by what metric is he underperforming?

Arsenal have four clubs (City/Liverpool/Chelsea/Utd) who all have a stronger claim to finish top four and one(Spurs) who have a roughly equal claim. 5th/6th is where their resources dictate they should finish and they finished 5th so on that basis he's performing at the level expected/if not slightly better. Of course they shouldn't be content with that and will want better but there are five other clubs in the race, two of them have to miss out. They've steadily accrued more points each season and their underlying numbers(if you put much stock into them) are also on an upward curve.

I'm not saying this as a Spurs fan who just wants them to keep Arteta but unless they visibly regress next season then I don't see what they would stand to gain by sacking him, unless an elite manager was to become available perhaps.

 

[AshRK]

I suppose by "lowering standards" what everyone means here is that even during Emery's time Arsenal fans were expecting to get top four or at least targetting that but since Arteta that no longer seems to be that. When Arsenal finished 8th under Arteta (the full season) playing horrible football, I don't think there was a huge outroar for him to get sacked and there were always excuses that the team is young and what not. Even last season, finishing 5th (after having total control of the 4th spot for a long time and no european football) most Arsenal fans saw it as a "good" season, a season of improvement. And this season, do the Arsenal fans have a minimum expection of getting a top four finish? I don't see it, they just want to be challenging for that. So, in that sense, standards went from playing good football and at least getting top four to now playing alright football and challenging for top four.
Again, this is from the pov of a United supporter, so take it with a pinch of salt.

This is a very good post. People come with lame point that people who critique him hates him. People like me are just astounded how the same set of fans who hounded wenger and Emery are making excuses.

No one is saying everyone should say sack him but to keep on saying, yeah it's fine to miss out on top 4 because we have other 4 clubs better is just wierd. Maybe there is a reason people are not putting Arsenal in top 4 is because of the manager you have. If you had Conte or even Poch maybe you will be looked higher. Maybe if you had some other manager, you would have finished 4th last season.

 

[GoonerBear]

This is a very good post. People come with lame point that people who critique him hates him. People like me are just astounded how the same set of fans who hounded wenger and Emery are making excuses.

No one is saying everyone should say sack him but to keep on saying, yeah it's fine to miss out on top 4 because we have other 4 clubs better is just wierd. Maybe there is a reason people are not putting Arsenal in top 4 is because of the manager you have. If you had Conte or even Poch maybe you will be looked higher. Maybe if you had some other manager, you would have finished 4th last season.

But who is saying it's fine missing out on top 4 every season? I've stated a list of things I want to see a page or 2 back. I want progression, I want a higher points totals that hopefully will enable is to qualify for top 4 and so did the other Arsenal fans on here. At least 1 even wants rid of him right now.

 

[Donaldo]

This is a very good post. People come with lame point that people who critique him hates him. People like me are just astounded how the same set of fans who hounded wenger and Emery are making excuses.

No one is saying everyone should say sack him but to keep on saying, yeah it's fine to miss out on top 4 because we have other 4 clubs better is just wierd. Maybe there is a reason people are not putting Arsenal in top 4 is because of the manager you have. If you had Conte or even Poch maybe you will be looked higher. Maybe if you had some other manager, you would have finished 4th last season.

Great, I see we're back to the point in the cycle where the idiots start quoting strawmen.

 

[Daydreamer]

I don’t know how he thinks he’ll outcompete city by signing all their spare parts. Looks like he is buying and building for top 4 rather than a title run.

That's probably because we are.

 

[Donaldo]

That's probably because we are.

One more season of EL football for United and you'll hopefully start seeing some humility on here. Wont cross my fingers though.

 

[Daydreamer]

Unproven yes but by what metric is he underperforming?

Arsenal have four clubs (City/Liverpool/Chelsea/Utd) who all have a stronger claim to finish top four and one(Spurs) who have a roughly equal claim. 5th/6th is where their resources dictate they should finish and they finished 5th so on that basis he's performing at the level expected/if not slightly better. Of course they shouldn't be content with that and will want better but there are five other clubs in the race, two of them have to miss out. They've steadily accrued more points each season and their underlying numbers(if you put much stock into them) are also on an upward curve.

I'm not saying this as a Spurs fan who just wants them to keep Arteta but unless they visibly regress next season then I don't see what they would stand to gain by sacking him, unless an elite manager was to become available perhaps.

I think it's really come to something when I'm in full agreement with the Spurs fan...

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

One more season of EL football for United and you'll hopefully start seeing some humility on here. Wont cross my fingers though.

By December:

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