Arteta has them playing some nice stuff, but they are desperately fragile and don't have the stomach for the big games. It's weird how clubs can retain a "culture" through numerous managerial changes and complete squad overhauls. You could apply that description to basically any Arsenal team of the last 15 years.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
More than any other team I've seen. The mood around the club can quickly turn. I was talking to a Arsenal fan mate after the game yesterday and he was spouting off about how clueless Arteta was, saw more of that on twitter in the evening, so the anti-Arteta sentiment is always bubbling nicely under the surface ready to explode if they have a bad run of results.
And includes two newly promoted sides and a Leicester in total shambles. Fair dues, winning 5 on the trot, even against shit teams, is good, but maybe hold off on declaring them "back" until we're further along and they've played a few decent sides.
He definitely has an air of David Brent about him when the camera pans to him in the dugout.
I would say there were some good moments from them yesterday. That first 15 mins in the second half was really good. It was very similar to United in the first 15 mins in the first half. So fair play on that.
However, for a manager who has been in the league for now close to 3 years , he still makes rookie mistakes and that too very naive one. Eth basically out did him tactically in that final 35 minutes.
Anyways I still predict them to finish in top 4. They are much ahead in terms of progress in comparison to say United or Spurs. And Chelsea are having a mare, so far. Top 4 should be bare minimum this season.
However, for a manager who has been in the league for now close to 3 years , he still makes rookie mistakes and that too very naive one. Eth basically out did him tactically in that final 35 minutes.
Anyways I still predict them to finish in top 4. They are much ahead in terms of progress in comparison to say United or Spurs. And Chelsea are having a mare, so far. Top 4 should be bare minimum this season.
Think that his team is playing good football, and have tools to beat the smaller teams. They have pace upfront, if Jesus can continues playing that good as a number 9, and a good number 10 in Odegaard who inserts well between the line.
I also think that they have a good defense, bar the right back. with Zinchenko coming as a 3rd midfielder it create spaces in midfield and basically liberates an extra man upfront.
But I think that his limitations are his players. Yesterday the individual quality played a role in our win. Bruno and Eriksen with a pass, a control, a run were creating they bright moment for us. Martinelli, Saka, Odegard are good players, but they are maybe lacking the talent to go a level higher.
As for the top 4, I am not sure they will be in it. Think it will be basically between City, Pool, Chelsea and Spurs.
I also think that they have a good defense, bar the right back. with Zinchenko coming as a 3rd midfielder it create spaces in midfield and basically liberates an extra man upfront.
But I think that his limitations are his players. Yesterday the individual quality played a role in our win. Bruno and Eriksen with a pass, a control, a run were creating they bright moment for us. Martinelli, Saka, Odegard are good players, but they are maybe lacking the talent to go a level higher.
As for the top 4, I am not sure they will be in it. Think it will be basically between City, Pool, Chelsea and Spurs.
Has built a good side with a structure of play that is quite noticeable with Martinelli and Saka taking on their full backs but the key is the middle. The first 15 mins of the second half Zinchenko, Samba, Xhaka, Odegaard with Jesus dropping deep created number of options for their players through the middle and massive overload.
His failure to adjust to the Ronaldo and Fred subs cost them the game as the overload was neutralized
His failure to adjust to the Ronaldo and Fred subs cost them the game as the overload was neutralized
What makes you think Chelsea will be in it, but Arsenal won't?
Chelsea have been terrible for about 9-10 months now. (relative to a big club)
Against PSG Ole got it spot on.
I was impressed with Arsenal for long periods yesterday. They are playing well under Arteta. There's no reason why they shouldn't continue to improve, and make top 4 this year.
However i worry a bit about the Europa league (for them and for us). It's a gruelling competition which usually negatively impacts weekends.
However i worry a bit about the Europa league (for them and for us). It's a gruelling competition which usually negatively impacts weekends.
Let alone the few issues they had this season, but I think that they have a better manager than Arsenal, and an overall better team.
Having added Fofana, Cucurella, Koulibaly, Aubameyang and Sterling, I think they are strong enough to stabilize their team and fight for 3rd with Spurs.
As for Spurs, once again I think Conte will prove a better asset than Arteta at the end
I wonder if there is a frowny face on the brain and heart drawings at training today 
I find it really odd that any of Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs or United would be considered heavy favourites over any of the others. They're all good sides but not great sides.
Spurs and Chelsea have two advantages in their favour - they're already top 4 sides, and they have proven elite managers, and managers proven in this league. They also finished top 4 whilst playing in Europe which Arsenal didn't have.
Arsenal have a manager who's never managed before Arsenal and who's best achievement to date is an 8th placed finish and a 5th placed finish. They also have added european fixtures to contend with this season.
United have an exciting prospect but one who's come from a lower domestic level and completely new to the league.
In terms of the quality of the squads, I honestly don't think there's big gaps between them.
Spurs seem to be getting a heavy push from a lot of people to be nailed on 3rd - although they have a couple of elite players in kane/son I really don't look at their team and think it's on another level to the rest of the contenders. I assume it's just because they have Conte and got their business done before the season started that people have such faith in them.
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"Okay guys, listen. I will you tell what they problem is. You didn't play like a potato. You played like what, a squishy tomato and this cannot be. We cannot do this. We cannot play like squishy tomatoes and expect to win football matches. But this is my fault, I will take responsibility in front of the cameras and I will prepare for you a training session and things will become so clear for you and next week you play like potato warriors. Understood? Okay let's go and have a fecking good training session"I wonder if there is a frowny face on the brain and heart drawings at training today
Do they have depth to rotate a lot for Europa league?
Tierney, Tomiyasu, Holding, Lokonga, Vieira, Smith-Rowe, Nketiah all likely to feature in the Europa League.
It doesn’t look enough to me.
I thought you were excellent for large spells yesterday and had a look at your squad earlier just out of curiosity to see if Arteta had the means to fully rotate to help maintain that level over the next few weeks but I’m not convinced.
You might have half of your strongest XI playing Thursday, Sunday through that period and if you start to pick up injuries it will only get more difficult.
are they really though? really?
Arteta has shown that he can play good football with his best team on the pitch. The thing is, alot of managers are able to do this when they have a core of 9 players they can call upon every week.
Its when the managers need to rotate and the team continues to play the same way, shows how good the manager is.
We have seen Klopp and Pep do it, even Conte struggles, which is why his European record is so poor.
Having a small squad, building a seige mentality is what has got Arsenal to this point, its when he gets a bigger squad and players not happy not playing, he will be tested.
Its when the managers need to rotate and the team continues to play the same way, shows how good the manager is.
We have seen Klopp and Pep do it, even Conte struggles, which is why his European record is so poor.
Having a small squad, building a seige mentality is what has got Arsenal to this point, its when he gets a bigger squad and players not happy not playing, he will be tested.
I think it will be enough for the group stages. If we can beat Zurich on Thursday, win the home games, that's enough to see you through the group. More than enough quality in that group to do that.
If you bring in all 7 of the players you mentioned above for the Europa games, who do you think makes up the numbers for your XI? Will it be youth or players from the first XI? If it’s youth then I could see you making hard work of the group stage.
This is just a guess, not sure how Arteta will play it. But wouldn't be surprised to see him go something like this.
Turner
Cedric
Tomiyasu
Holding
Tierney
Xhaka
Lokonga
Vieira
Smith-Rowe (if fit)
Nketiah
Marquinhos
Fair enough. I’ve not seen Marquinhos play before admittedly but the lack of cover for Saka and Martinelli, given their ages, would be a bit of a worry.
That team is barely better than the team Zurich will put out to be honest. I doubt Arteta will rotate that heavily.
That's a good enough depth. Should be able to rotate easily between first team and rotation players.
Ah, so you know how good Zurich are? That Arsenal team has got 2 of last seasons first choice back 4, & the other 2 Cedric & Holding have plenty experience. Then Xhaka & Lokonga both played vs Man Utd, & Vieira cost £30M, needs minutes and played Champions League football last season.
Smith-Rowe played plenty last season (although I think he might be injured), Nketiah finished last season as Arsenal's first choice striker, and Marquinhos is the wildcard but started well for the Under 23's scoring a few goals.
That team is good enough to breeze past the groups, lets be honest. Its all about the coaching, if Arteta can get those players playing in the same way as the first 11, there should be no reason why they can't easily win that group.
Its when the first team players gets injuries and the backup options have to play 2 games a week, then it becomes more of an issue.
Also, people talk about Thursday, Sunday like its impossible. Surely, if you want to play CL as a player, you should be comfortable playing 2 games a week.
Liverpool, City have shown you can, rotate 3/4 players a game and keep it going.
Slight tongue in cheek comment but in all seriousness, I don't think Arteta will rotate that heavily. I don't think the team you listed will breeze through the groups. He'll have to mix it with regular first team players for that.
I know. We've had 1 season out of Europe in about 25 years and all of a sudden playing European football we are novices.
He might play a couple more of the senior players, I was just showing the next XI.
I'll be shocked if he starts say 8 or 9 of the team that started the weekend though.
I agree, we didn’t work your Keeper enough for the pressure we put you under. That was an issue against Fulham and Villa, but you had the quality to make us pay.
I couldn’t agree more about the subs. Not only did it make us more vulnerable at the back, it also blunted us going forwards. We no longer had enough players in deeper positions to build our attacks. And as you we defending fairly deep, all we achieved was making our forwards easier to mark.
Also, psychologically we handed you the advantage. Completely ripping up the plan reduces your faith in what you’re doing. Pep, Klopp, Zidane, Ancelotti etc all make minor tweaks in the late stages - I think engenders a spirit of confidence in the way their teams play.
Yeah, you just can't roll the dice like that with almost 30 mins of football left to play. And spot on regarding the top coaches. Fair enough, when you're chasing the game, you gamble more. Maybe you take off your No.10 for an additional striker, or bring on something different, but for the large part these teams barely change the approach play.
Madrid gave us an exhibition in chasing games many times last season. Stick to the game plan and be clinical when the chances come. I don't really recall them properly going nuts and throwing the kitchen sink at it. Maybe City at home, but even then it felt controlled.
It's crazy how much praise Arsenal are getting for apparently dominating the game, I'm getting flash backs to all them years Wenger got lauded for playing the best football every year despite finishing 4th. If the aim of the game is to keep possession and struggle to create chances we would of kept Van Gaal
In fairness, they have made great progress. But against us who are under ETH less than three months, they couldn’t create real chances. I don’t know how far they can reach. My feeling is that we will finish in front of them this season.
You’d be surprised. And if you haven’t watchedit, it’s hard for me take in your point of view I think.
Fair play. You guys won fair and square. Mind you the Arsenal criticism is a bit over the top. We were growing into the game in the second half and Saka's goal was a long time coming, but United's second was completely against the run of play, a massive sucker punch. We were way too aggressive chasing the winner, as soon as we leveled, we should have dropped 10 yards.
Dont quite understand the Arteta criticism. ETH had set you up deep and to play on the counter on your own ground. A de-facto admission your not ready to contest the ball with Arsenal. Thats Arteta's doing, only Liverpool and Man City will seek to challenge us for the ball. All other teams will surrender possession to us home and away. We will therefore get more time on the ball, more touches in the final third increasing the chances of scoring. Saliba and Odegaard also missed sitters inside the box. We did enough to win the game, but the execution just wasn't there, at the front and back.
Arteta wasnt naive, he was too aggressive, and we overreached. We were playing Man United at Old Trafford, not Bournemouth at home. Yet the way we pressed, and the line position would have you think it was Bournemouth at the Emirates. But there was no naivety about Arteta. He is a strongheaded manager with no indecisiveness. He has a very clear vision of how his teams want to play. He wanted to win that match, not settle for the draw, but he wanted ot too much.
We will get on the ball and look to dominate the other team, starting with Everton at home this week. Everton and PIckford wont replicate that performance against Liverpool. We will score at least 3 against Everton this week. Then we will go to Brentford the week after and play the same way & its up to Brentford to cope and deal with it.
Dont quite understand the Arteta criticism. ETH had set you up deep and to play on the counter on your own ground. A de-facto admission your not ready to contest the ball with Arsenal. Thats Arteta's doing, only Liverpool and Man City will seek to challenge us for the ball. All other teams will surrender possession to us home and away. We will therefore get more time on the ball, more touches in the final third increasing the chances of scoring. Saliba and Odegaard also missed sitters inside the box. We did enough to win the game, but the execution just wasn't there, at the front and back.
Arteta wasnt naive, he was too aggressive, and we overreached. We were playing Man United at Old Trafford, not Bournemouth at home. Yet the way we pressed, and the line position would have you think it was Bournemouth at the Emirates. But there was no naivety about Arteta. He is a strongheaded manager with no indecisiveness. He has a very clear vision of how his teams want to play. He wanted to win that match, not settle for the draw, but he wanted ot too much.
We will get on the ball and look to dominate the other team, starting with Everton at home this week. Everton and PIckford wont replicate that performance against Liverpool. We will score at least 3 against Everton this week. Then we will go to Brentford the week after and play the same way & its up to Brentford to cope and deal with it.
What are you talking about? Saliba and Odegaard missed sitters. We had a goal chalked off. DDG had a great save to deny a Martinelli header.
The irony us you beat us and Liverpool more convincingly that you did Southampton and Leicester City. The problem here is most teams you play will sit back and look to play on the counter. What happens when United need to get on the ball and get players forward? Crystal Palace away will be a tough game. They sit deep and attack on the counter. Eventually ETH will need to evolve beyond a low block counter attacking game. We say what happened at Brentford when you tried to play out the back and play a more adventurous game. You will have to face these demons again. Your defenders will eventually have to play a higher line. Because getting into arm wrestles looking for 1-0 wins is not viable over the long run.
Ok! Arsenal is awesome!
I feel pity for you that you somehow think the world is static. Anyway, you have every right to think in any way. Not a problem.
Oddngaard's was no sitter. Saliba is a CB. How many chances did you create for Jesus your main goalscorer? How many did we for Rashford? Rashford's two goals - now those are real sitters.
These parts in bold are hilarious. ETH is 6 games into a new job taking over a car crash of a team. He's taken them from their spill over from last season free fall to four wins in a row. Every moron knows you can't transform a Jose and Ole team over night. Nobody can do it, not Pep and not even Sir Alex. Certainly Mikel I won the FA cup once Arteta wouldn't be able to.
And anybody with a functioning pair of eyes knows that we aren't set up to play a 'low block counter attack style'. As with the Liverpool game we dominated the early parts of the Arsenal game as well being basically parked into the opponents half. But with our personnel still being better suited to hitting teams with pace and ferocity, and A LOT of work and reparation to be done to make them half decent at possession football, eventually we tend to give up ground.
Good thing we smashed you on the counter regardless.
Well if you're over aggressive against an opponent who will rip you up on the counter then that is naivitety. Unless Arteta is happy to lose football matches of course. If he believes that he can beat teams like us deftly hurling everyone towards attack then he is naive. He's free to come to OT next year ans try. We'll carve you open and take three points again. Probably getting even more possesion than this year given ETHs team will be better formed. That isn't even his style, he did it because he was desperate which is poor judgment.
As for the second bit, what the feck?
Calm down, you're not managed by Pep himself. You played Chelsea twice last season. Both times thr away team won. Both times they had around 65 per cent of possession. The season before that they had 55 and 65 per cent of possession against you. Last year in the crucial top four decider Spurs had 58 (granted you got a red) and 56 per cent of the ball and they are not a possesion based team.