How excited are you about the World Cup?

[sullydnl]

Right now I'm not excited at all.

Once it actually kicks in I'm sure it'll grab me more, especially if the actual football is good.

But the timing and moral unpleasantness surrounding it robs it of something. Not good when you hope the WC turns out to be a mess and a PR nightmare for the people hosting it.

 

[redcucumber]

It doesn’t mean other people have made up their figures.

Both figures can't be right. What you're saying is, you prefer to believe the figure Qatar officials are pedalling over those being put forward by independent investigative analysis. It's quite transparent.

 

[Spaghetti]

Both figures can't be right. What you're saying is, you prefer to believe the figure Qatar officials are pedalling over those being put forward by independent investigative analysis. It's quite transparent.

You’ve joined in at the end and missed the point of the post.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

Not at all excited, maybe things change once it starts but I doubt it. It’s at the wrong time, wrong place, too many teams and that’s before you get into the corruption and slavery. I hope it fails massively, whatever that looks like, and everyone involved gets exposed for such a disgusting decision.

 

[Lay]

Apart from holding it in countries with questionable foreign policies and human rights issues, the bigger problem is that international football is also suffering from a bloat. Euro 2016 was the last great tournament as it was 16 teams which created a lot more jepody. The WC was been suffering since 98 with the move to 32 (98 was the only tournament that format worked, which was principally down to a number of smaller nations having had some of their better national teams.)

However, now the Euros have virtually half the teams qualify for it, while the World Cup is going to 48 teams. The Euros consequently only puts on quality games from the quarter final stage and the WC is similar as it is too easy to qualify from the groups and half the teams that do qualify aren't great (in the 48 team WC it will be more like 60-70%.)

It is the same with the CL. The move to add more group games and teams is just diluting the product and is more to do with the heads of UEFA and FIFA playing politics to shore up their support in elections (also with added bribes at times) rather than wanting to put on a quality product.

Euro 2016 had 24 teams.

 

[redcucumber]

You’ve joined in at the end and missed the point of the post.

It's not like I've gate crashed the end of a conversation at the pub! It's quite easy to follow a thread on a forum.

 

[Spaghetti]

It's not like I've gate crashed the end of a conversation at the pub! It's quite easy to follow a thread on a forum.

Sorry, I assumed you hadn’t read it as you missed the point.

 

[redcucumber]

Sorry, I assumed you hadn’t read it as you missed the point.

Are you going to explain why? It might help the conversation, or else we're sort of wasting our time. There are two figures for the number of migrant deaths directly associated with building the stadiums: one that the Qatari officials put out - 3, and one from independent analysis - over 6,500. It's really not that complicated a conversation.

 

[HTG]

Not at all. Not going to watch.

 

[Spaghetti]

Are you going to explain why? It might help the conversation, or else we're sort of wasting our time. There are two figures for the number of migrant deaths directly associated with building the stadiums: one that the Qatari officials put out - 3, and one from independent analysis - over 6,500. It's really not that complicated a conversation.

It is when you summarise it in this way.

The conversation I was having, was that I said that nobody on here made the figures up.

By the way, the independent analysis did not say 6,500, it said 50 in 2020. The 6,500 is from a headline in a distorted, negative, anti-WC article from the Guardian. It was not an independent report and did not say 6,500 workers died in construction (if you take 2 minutes to read the article). 3 is the official figure.

None of these figures were invented by Red Cafe posters.

 

[Judas]

Annoyingly I think it'll probably go ok. I wanted Russia to be a disaster and it wasn't.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's horrible, 48 team WC and 24 team Euros.
Euros of 16 teams was the best just as CL of 16 teams. They keep dilluting it and making it worse and worse.

Couldn't agree more. It's not just that the quality of the football suffers. It also makes it almost impossible to take in the tournament as a whole, the way you could when it was 24 and it was possible to watch every team at least once or twice, get a reasonable impression of everyone. Even if, say, Iran vs Australia might not be a terribly interesting experience in itself, it gives you an idea of what it means if in a subsequent game a team you care about beats one of them 1-0 or 3-1. But with that many teams it's just too much to follow, and once you lose that grip the tournament takes on the character of isolated highlights.

 

[stevoc]

Even the articles that initially published it have a clearer breakdown. “6500 deaths” in the headline, but only 3 were actually whilst working on construction.
It’s like saying “1 billion deaths since the start of covid”, but in the article it says “only” 3 million were from covid.

Stop getting angry at tabloid headlines.

Yes of course, according to the Qatari government anyway.

What do you base it on? Stevoc’s instinct based on what?

'' but only 3 were actually whilst working on construction. ''

What do you base this on?

What is the source for only 3 deaths due to construction work in Qatar?

Probably the full article of the headline you read

So you don't actually know where you got the stat for 3 construction deaths from, but you stated it as fact?

Also which article? And what was their source for the information?

What on Earth are you talking about?

The stat for 3 is the stat that is in pretty much every article I’ve seen. Also in the Qatar official reports, and an interview on The Overlap.

Again, stop reading headlines.

Ah we got there in the end mate, though we should have got there much quicker.

Qatar's official stats on workers deaths are obviously bullshit.

 

[redcucumber]

It is when you summarise it in this way.

The conversation I was having, was that I said that nobody on here made the figures up.

By the way, the independent analysis did not say 6,500, it said 50 in 2020. The 6,500 is from a headline in a distorted, negative, anti-WC article from the Guardian. It was not an independent report and did not say 6,500 workers died in construction (if you take 2 minutes to read the article). 3 is the official figure.

None of these figures were invented by Red Cafe posters.

You keep repeating that line and I've no idea why, seeing as no one ever actually accused you of making any figures up (unless I've missed something).

The report was built using data taken from Nepal, India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka embassies. How is it not independent?

If you read an interview taken from the lead journalist involved, he explains that the official figure of 3 is quite obviously bogus for a number of reasons and isn't to be taken seriously.

 

[Spaghetti]

Ah we got there in the end mate, though we should have got there much quicker.

Qatar's official stats on workers deaths are obviously bullshit.

Based on stevoc’s instinct. Back to the start again.

Listen, I’m happy to think that the deaths were minimal. Some newspaper articles seem to thrive on deaths and will be happier the higher the toll.

I’ll keep my positive attitude, thanks.

 

[Spaghetti]

You keep repeating that line and I've no idea why, seeing as no one ever actually accused you of making any figures up (unless I've missed something).

The report was built using data taken from Nepal, India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka embassies. How is it not independent?

If you read an interview taken from the lead journalist involved, he explains that the official figure of 3 is quite obviously bogus for a number of reasons and isn't to be taken seriously.

The part of the conversation you jumped in on was about people on here making numbers up.

 

[Moston Red]

I’ll watch some games but the fact it’s interrupting the season is frustrating.

 

[redcucumber]

The part of the conversation you jumped in on was about people on here making numbers up.

People were calling complete BS on the official Qatari death toll, no one was accusing you personally of making numbers up, so I don't understand why you've got a bee in your bonnet about it.

 

[Spaghetti]

People were calling complete BS on the official Qatari death toll, no one was accusing you personally of making numbers up, so I don't understand why you've got a bee in your bonnet about it.

I haven’t got a bee in my bonnet at all buddy, I have said nothing out of order, personal or offensive. Odd remark. A poster accused people of making numbers up, I said we weren’t (and that’s the post you quoted).

I’ve just read the interview with the journalist that you posted, interesting read. Thanks.

 

[stevoc]

Based on stevoc’s instinct. Back to the start again.

Nope.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ant-worker-deaths-leaves-families-in-despair/

https://www.ilo.org/beirut/countries/qatar/WCMS_828399/lang--en/index.htm

Listen, I’m happy to think that the deaths were minimal. Some newspaper articles seem to thrive on deaths and will be happier the higher the toll.

I’ll keep my positive attitude, thanks.

Oh is that what you're doing being positive?

Do you believe the official line on every subject from every dictatorship around the world if it's 'positive'?

 

[rimaldo]

some perspective is needed here. i’ve actually spoken to a few of the qatari slaves building the stadia, and they agree that working conditions are awful but they’re thankful they don’t have to play under southgate.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I love the world cup. I'm not a fan of FIFA and their choice of hosts or the circumstances behind it, but I feel the world cup goes beyond those things, at least to me, and I can't wait for it. International football is what I care about the most over club football, which I see more as just a distraction until the next international tournament. There's nothing in club football that gives me more emotion than winning a World cup or a Euro, and I love that even casual or non-football fans get involved when it happens, it definitely feels like a world event compared to most international competitions out there of any sport.

Well no surprise you're excited, you're a PSG fan, we know your principles are flexible

 

[Garethw]

You're basically calling anyone who ever fought for democracy, for freedom, against slavery, against racism etc. a bloody idiot. Guys who fought against the Nazis must be even bigger idiots since they would had not been only threw in jail like that guy but killed.

No offense but who is the bloody idiot now?

I’m not saying anything of the sort! The country has an incredibly backwards way of thinking, but it is their country and their rules.
WW2 was fought because Germany INVADED other countries not because of domestic policies.

Qatar are about 100 years behind the West in their acceptance of homosexuality and woman’s rights etc.Staging a pro LGBTQ protest in their country is going to result in being thrown in jail (best case scenario) or being thrown off a building or cut into small pieces (worst case scenario).

The best way to deal with Qatar and their backwards thinking is to completely ignore them.

 

[EtH]

some perspective is needed here. i’ve actually spoken to a few of the qatari slaves building the stadia, and they agree that working conditions are awful but they’re thankful they don’t have to play under southgate.

Well at least they would be getting paid and have water breaks playing under Southgate.

Feck off rimaldo.

 

[Gio]

Apart from holding it in countries with questionable foreign policies and human rights issues, the bigger problem is that international football is also suffering from a bloat. Euro 2016 was the last great tournament as it was 16 teams which created a lot more jepody. The WC was been suffering since 98 with the move to 32 (98 was the only tournament that format worked, which was principally down to a number of smaller nations having had some of their better national teams.)

However, now the Euros have virtually half the teams qualify for it, while the World Cup is going to 48 teams. The Euros consequently only puts on quality games from the quarter final stage and the WC is similar as it is too easy to qualify from the groups and half the teams that do qualify aren't great (in the 48 team WC it will be more like 60-70%.)

It is the same with the CL. The move to add more group games and teams is just diluting the product and is more to do with the heads of UEFA and FIFA playing politics to shore up their support in elections (also with added bribes at times) rather than wanting to put on a quality product.

Aye, totally agree. Part of me wants to make the most of this World Cup as it'll be the last non-bloated tournament. Nothing worse than turning group stages into a CL-style procession for the stronger countries - where's the jeopardy and tension? The 16-team Euros were consistently excellent.

 

[Strelok]

I’m not saying anything of the sort! The country has an incredibly backwards way of thinking, but it is their country and their rules.
WW2 was fought because Germany INVADED other countries not because of domestic policies.

Qatar are about 100 years behind the West in their acceptance of homosexuality and woman’s rights etc.Staging a pro LGBTQ protest in their country is going to result in being thrown in jail (best case scenario) or being thrown off a building or cut into small pieces (worst case scenario).

The best way to deal with Qatar and their backwards thinking is to completely ignore them.

So for you because it's the rule imposed by evil people we all should comply despite the rule is fecking wrong? How about the people who fought and died against the corrupted absolute monarchies so you can have your democracy and freedom of speech today? Those are all bloody idiots too? Or the very German people who fought and died against the Nazis are all bloody idiots too? There were countless brave people who sacrificed themselves for a better world we have today and you call them bloody idiots?

Being ignorant and a coward yourself is one thing but calling other brave people who dare to stand up and fight against what's wrong idiots is completely out of line. You're on my ignored list now don't bother to reply. Btw how the feck you have a score of 1 and still being a full member

 

[That_Bloke]

Aye, totally agree. Part of me wants to make the most of this World Cup as it'll be the last non-bloated tournament. Nothing worse than turning group stages into a CL-style procession for the stronger countries - where's the jeopardy and tension? The 16-team Euros were consistently excellent.

Truer words were never spoken.

As much as I think that awarding this WC to Qatar was a mistake, I'm going to watch it just because of that. The drop in quality with the Euros formula is astonishing.

 

[Conor]

Based on stevoc’s instinct. Back to the start again.

Listen, I’m happy to think that the deaths were minimal. Some newspaper articles seem to thrive on deaths and will be happier the higher the toll.

I’ll keep my positive attitude, thanks.

I never knew 'positive attitude' was a synonym for 'pure ignorance'.

 

[redcucumber]

I’m not saying anything of the sort! The country has an incredibly backwards way of thinking, but it is their country and their rules.
WW2 was fought because Germany INVADED other countries not because of domestic policies.

Qatar are about 100 years behind the West in their acceptance of homosexuality and woman’s rights etc.Staging a pro LGBTQ protest in their country is going to result in being thrown in jail (best case scenario) or being thrown off a building or cut into small pieces (worst case scenario).

The best way to deal with Qatar and their backwards thinking is to completely ignore them.

Isn't that the crux of the issue? That any gay person in Qatar to do with the World Cup (or not) doesn't have the privilege of ignoring it through fear of persecution?

 

[That_Bloke]

Apart from holding it in countries with questionable foreign policies and human rights issues, the bigger problem is that international football is also suffering from a bloat. Euro 2016 was the last great tournament as it was 16 teams which created a lot more jepody. The WC was been suffering since 98 with the move to 32 (98 was the only tournament that format worked, which was principally down to a number of smaller nations having had some of their better national teams.)

However, now the Euros have virtually half the teams qualify for it, while the World Cup is going to 48 teams. The Euros consequently only puts on quality games from the quarter final stage and the WC is similar as it is too easy to qualify from the groups and half the teams that do qualify aren't great (in the 48 team WC it will be more like 60-70%.)

It is the same with the CL. The move to add more group games and teams is just diluting the product and is more to do with the heads of UEFA and FIFA playing politics to shore up their support in elections (also with added bribes at times) rather than wanting to put on a quality product.

Sorry but while I understand your argument the previous WCs were absolutely unfair towards other continents, especially Africa which always provided talented players and deserved more than just three places. The only thing holding back african teams is their football infrastructures.

 

[stevoc]

I’m not saying anything of the sort! The country has an incredibly backwards way of thinking, but it is their country and their rules.
WW2 was fought because Germany INVADED other countries not because of domestic policies.

Qatar are about 100 years behind the West in their acceptance of homosexuality and woman’s rights etc.Staging a pro LGBTQ protest in their country is going to result in being thrown in jail (best case scenario) or being thrown off a building or cut into small pieces (worst case scenario).

The best way to deal with Qatar and their backwards thinking is to completely ignore them.

Yeah and the guy protesting will have known that but did it anyway. It wasn't so long ago that women had less rights and Homosexuality was illegal in a lot of western countries. That changed as did peoples attitudes because a lot of people stood up for their rights and protested.

If the world ignored backwards attitudes, the world would never change.

 

[Spaghetti]

Nope.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ant-worker-deaths-leaves-families-in-despair/

https://www.ilo.org/beirut/countries/qatar/WCMS_828399/lang--en/index.htm



Oh is that what you're doing being positive?

Do you believe the official line on every subject from every dictatorship around the world if it's 'positive'?

I do not. I also don’t believe clickbait headlines and use them as a reason to get angry and not watch the World Cup.

Those links have nothing to do with the World Cup. At no point did I say working conditions were great in Qatar (I’d not be able to go on holiday, let alone work in 40 degree heat.

 

[kunal18]

This World Cup, there doesn't seem to be any clear favorite and a lot of evenly stacked teams, that in itself should be exciting to watch.
High scoring evenly balanced games in the initial rounds should bring more excitement to the event.Hopefully some new stars will emerge out of it .
As for the non sporting controversies, I'd say those haven't really mattered much to affect the tournament from being hosted, so I'd enjoy the spectacle.
Also there are innumerable platforms to raise protest apart from sports example trade,business etc but that has never happened.

 

[Rood]

Are you going to explain why? It might help the conversation, or else we're sort of wasting our time. There are two figures for the number of migrant deaths directly associated with building the stadiums: one that the Qatari officials put out - 3, and one from independent analysis - over 6,500. It's really not that complicated a conversation.

Ye the Qatari numbers (actually 37 rather than 3) are sure to be a massive underestimate but the 6,500 number that has been widely circulated also comes from a sensationalist headline (certainly not independent analysis) with the reality being only a small proportion of those actually related to World Cup labour :
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...as-anti-qatar-disinformation-expert-says/amp/

Regardless of actual numbers, there is clearly an issue with human rights of migrant workers in places like Qatar - that kind of modern day slave labour has been going on for decades regardless of the World Cup so hopefully this event can shine a spotlight on it and force some change

 

[weetee]

If it weren't for threads like these or some injury news ("...likely to miss the upcoming WC") I mostly totally forgot about it. Hope it stays that way.

 

[slored1]

Probably going to miss most of the games due to not having time and Slovenia is not there, so I'm much less excited than usually. Will probably start watching in the latter stages when it gets more serious.

 

[redcucumber]

Ye the Qatari numbers (actually 37 rather than 3) are sure to be a massive underestimate but the 6,500 number that has been widely circulated also comes from a sensationalist headline (certainly not independent analysis) with the reality being only a small proportion of those actually related to World Cup labour :
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...as-anti-qatar-disinformation-expert-says/amp/

Regardless of actual numbers, there is clearly an issue with human rights of migrant workers in places like Qatar - that kind of modern day slave labour has been going on for decades regardless of the World Cup so hopefully this event can shine a spotlight on it and force some change

How is the Guardian's investigate journalism nonindependent?

On the bolded, isn't it a bit late for that? The World Cup is literally about to start - the spotlight is on Qatar more now than it will be once the World Cup is over, and Amnesty are still saying mistreatment of migrant workers is rife. Why would it improve after the World Cup?

 

[stevoc]

I do not.

Um.

I also don’t believe clickbait headlines and use them as a reason to get angry and not watch the World Cup.

I haven't believed any clickbait headlines, I've provided you 2 links that are not newspaper articles. So why do you keep assuming my opinion is based on newspaper articles?

Those links have nothing to do with the World Cup. At no point did I say working conditions were great in Qatar (I’d not be able to go on holiday, let alone work in 40 degree heat.

Come on now mate let's stay positive here.

What difference does it make if neither of those reports mention the World Cup specifically? (FYI both mention the World Cup)

Are you suggesting the people working on the World Cup stadiums and infrastructure are treated much better than workers on other projects in Qatar?

 

[stevoc]

Ye the Qatari numbers (actually 37 rather than 3) are sure to be a massive underestimate but the 6,500 number that has been widely circulated also comes from a sensationalist headline (certainly not independent analysis) with the reality being only a small proportion of those actually related to World Cup labour :
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...as-anti-qatar-disinformation-expert-says/amp/

Regardless of actual numbers, there is clearly an issue with human rights of migrant workers in places like Qatar - that kind of modern day slave labour has been going on for decades regardless of the World Cup so hopefully this event can shine a spotlight on it and force some change

Well at this stage all we can do is hope but I'm not sure that will be of much comfort to the families of the men that have had to die so a football tournament can take place in a desert.

 

[Garethw]

Isn't that the crux of the issue? That any gay person in Qatar to do with the World Cup (or not) doesn't have the privilege of ignoring it through fear of persecution?

It’s despicable that we are having to discuss this in 2023, but I really don’t know what the answer is. Their religion and laws forbid homosexuality by punishment of death. Until they decide to change this outlook, my advice would be for any homosexual to stay as far away from that horrible place as possible.