Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[Chesterlestreet]

Honest question, have you guys who wanted Kane etc to take the yellow actually ever done something like that in your field of work?

Would I have chosen not to stand up for something I considered an important principle in order to avoid what ultimately has to be considered a minor punishment (I wouldn't have lost my job, nowhere near it) administered by someone other than my actual employer? No, I can assure you that I would not have done that.

Have I actually found myself in that position? No, I have not. I doubt many people have - because it's a very unlikely scenario. In fact, offhand I can't think of anything that's even remotely analogous. I can think of certain more extreme hypothetical scenarios, where the employee might actually risk something major if they chose to stick up for what they believed in - but those are not analogous.

 

[Pintu]

Not sure of your overall point, tone or why you’re so bothered?

Are you trying to defend qatar’s suitability to be holding an international sporting event that consists of far more culturally progressive nations?

Also, qatar’s treatment of gays - making what they are born as illegal and punishable by beating and conversion camps - is directly comparable to Nazi Germany. Sorry if that bothers you, but it’s true.

Of course, it is going to sound like someone is defending Qatar when you equate it with the Nazi regime... I believe Stalin was far worse than Syria's Assad. Does that make me an Assad apologetic ? I hope not...

Qatar is a very bad WC host for many reasons, including the non football related ones you mention. The Europeans should never have taken the bribes and should never have voted for Qatar. But I also believe that most of the countries that can host a WC, with the very high standards that it requires nowadays, are no angels at all. The country that lost to Qatar was the USA, hardly a flawless country. The country that organized it in 2018 was Russia, certainly not a nicer regime than Qatar.

Spoiler

The treatment of gay people in Qatar is disgusting and despicable. But it is not comparable to Nazi Germany. Gay people in Qatar are de facto forced to hide their sexuality, but for those who accept that condition, life is pretty much as normal as it could be. (Not excusing this, just stating the fact people do not come out, just like we have this closet culture in many communities in the West, including the football community).

There is nobody rounding up gay people and putting them in concentration camp. Police involvements with gay people in Qatar is not the phenomena you are trying to make it out to be. There are definitely many more hate crimes and violence against LGBT people in progressive countries than there is in Qatar.

I think the biggest problem here is the symbol. Qatar having these archaic laws written, even though they are very rarely implemented.

Even though it is nowhere near a democracy, the citizens of Qatar (this probably includes a good portion of the closeted LGBT community there) seem to be content with the deal they got with their regime. Limited individual & political freedoms, but unlimited access to both free education and top-notch health care and welfare system. They have one of the highest living standards in the world... it is somewhat similar to us westerners. Enjoying many privileges, and ignoring what our regimes may be doing to other populations somewhere else in the world (only difference is most of the victims of the Qatari regime live close by.. While the majority of our victims are thousands of miles away)...

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Honest question, have you guys who wanted Kane etc to take the yellow actually ever done something like that in your field of work? Roy Keane is talking shite, he would not have done anything either.

Realistically, the footballers simply don't care. Its the FA chiefs making the decisions for them and the likes of Kane have to agree because its easier than disagreeing but I highly doubt many of them care that much. And you know what, and this is going to trigger some in here....the fans (English) don't really care either. Any regular match going person can tell you how homophobic English crowds are. Theres a reason not a single active PL player has come out yet.

And still no one has answered this..

I used to work for a small computer firm. A little business that was run by a guy and his wife. There was me who went out to jobs and there was a girl that worked the phones. I was very rarely in the office, but when I was I that the guy was abusive as feck towards his wife. Like he would just blow up at her for the slightest thing she did wrong. One day, my last day, he slapped her, knocking her off her chair. He then went in and started slapping the feck out of her. I stepped in, as Im sure many here would do, and beat the ever living feck out of him. Destroyed a couple of keyboards on his skull. I took a sacking and risked an assault charge because feck wife beaters. Ive walked out of two other jobs while they were really busy, one a night club and the other a restaurant because the managers were abusing the staff by not letting them take breaks and working past their shift for no pay.

And Im just some asshole. No one is looking to me to be role model, believe that. These footballers are all millionaires. They are the top of their profession and the reason that so many people watch football. They can do whatever they want and face nothing but empty threats by corrupt pieces of shit in Fifa. Without the players, there is no football. If they all walked, that would be the end of the tournament. They have power, far more than any one on here has in their dime a dozen 9 to 5. What you mean to say is that YOU wouldnt do anything. And it makes you feel better to see everyone else that way. Lots of people do stuff every single day. And they get shit for it. People with no safety net like these footballers have.

As for homophobia in football in general, yeah. It's a problem. But it's not a country arresting and jailing people for who they love. It's a few pricks with self esteem issues picking on a minority to make themselves feel better about being worthless trash. It is not a government with "death sentence" on the books as a form of punishment for being gay. It's bellends who call people names to give the illusion that they are better than those people.

 

[dumbo]

Honest question, have you guys who wanted Kane etc to take the yellow actually ever done something like that in your field of work? Roy Keane is talking shite, he would not have done anything either.

Yes, I can think of two occasions, one where I was receiving direct pressure from my employers (rather than petty threats of minor disciplinary action), in a job I needed to keep (I didn't have footballer money to fall back on), in a situation where I didn't have a community of support behind me. The other time I faced being socially ostracised. I hated doing it both times, I wasn't making some massive statement and it wasn't going to have any tangible impact but I felt strongly enough about the point I was making. I wasn't a martyr or hero, I wasn't even being a good person, I was doing the bare minimum of living by my convictions, so that I could look back at myself knowing I didn't fold like a sucker.

These fecking cowards were putting next to absolutely nothing up, they were at no personal risk, and yet still they collapsed in a heartbeat.

No one has to do anything, that is for everyone's own conscience but having spoken about taking up the challenge of representing, then to turn around and throw everone in the gutter, is fecking shite.

Southgate is now talking in interviews about moving on and concentrating on football, just like the Fifa crooks, and the oppressive Qatar organisers demanded.

Also if you were to ask me have I ever done what the Iran players did, then the answer is a definite no! That is some seriously scary, committed statement making. I would hope to have that courage but I don't know myself that well.

 

[Roane]

I actually agree with you on the virtue signalling. I don't like it either. It's dishonest.

However in the same fashion you're reluctant to clear up where you(not Islam or a book) stand on these matters. It's not a good look when you can't give a straight answer to basic questions. Or when you go a bit arbitrary with rules on drinking and being gay.

Especially when you're voluntarily in a thread discussing LGBTQ issues. I wouldn't question you on this for any other reason than you being here in this thread.

For me its tricky to take your opinion on board when I'm unsure if you think homosexuality is immoral or if you think it should be illegal.

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

 

[RoadTrip]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

But then why would you be engaging in discussions on these topics? You can’t possibly pass any opinion on them.

 

[bk1991]

The backing down from the European nations certainly reflects badly on them, only willing to take a stand for LGBTQ+ rights if there are absolutely no negatives consequences. I would imagine there will be some form of protest at the final group stage game if some of them will be going home regardless, will ring a bit hollow though.

Ultimately though it is FIFA and Qatar at fault here. Qatar for their retrograde view on who people love and FIFA for awarding the competition to them.

 

[Dan_F]

Again, willing to take a yellow for cheating in the game. Not willing to take a yellow to stand up for abused people. Is your hero worship so clouded your eyes that you can’t see the issue? Black Lives Matter as long as it’s ok. LGBT people can go feck themselves though, because starting a match with a yellow is just too much. Millionaires shitting themselves to take a stand because if a fecking game. And no, getting pushback on twitter from racist arseholes is not systemic bigotry. It’s not even fecking close. ”boo” like at a fecking pantomime? Oh yeah, scary stuff.

Harry Kane could have taken a rule book out on to the pitch and then throw at the ref saying “point to where it says wearing a rainbow arm band is a yellow card offence?“. And then every fecking player should have walked off if the yellow card was still produced.

Footballers, for whatever dumb reason, are seen as role models. But instead of the national team being those role models, Alex Scott stepped up and did it for them. Their money, their status, their ambition for a fecking game was more important to them. feck the lot them. feck fifa as well, but feck them right along side. Pathetic, self serving, pieces of shit.

Hero worship? I barely like the England team and certainly don’t care about Harry fecking Kane. Stop going on about Alex Scott please. I applaud what she did but it just isn’t the same thing.

I’m not even sure what your point is on BLM. Racism on twitter isn’t systemic bigotry, but racism in every day life is, which is what BLM is all about?

I’ll leave you to it and continue the conversation elsewhere, which is exactly what the armband was supposed to do. Raise awareness and open discussions about it.

 

[Roane]

But then why would you be engaging in discussions on these topics? You can’t possibly pass any opinion on them.

I think you've misunderstood the conversation. It happens if folk don't see the entirety and just come in at specific points.

I can't even remember how I joined this one. It then developed. It happens in conversation.

This particular case, as I understood it was to put my religion aside and give my opinion. My opinion is based on my religion and that is what I have and said

 

[The Boy]

Says it all really. We really should have stood up for this issue instead of bowing to the pressure.

What kind of value is it to deny people basic human rights?

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What annoys me most about this is that universal human rights are suddenly being re labelled as western values.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drawn up by the UN and all member countries took part. The representatives that encoded it were from different legal and cultural bckgrounds and included all the world's major religions. It is not some back of a fag packet document drawn up in London, Rome or Sydney, it is universal, it is the world's values.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

But I also believe that most of the countries that can host a WC, with the very high standards that it requires nowadays, are no angels at all. The country that lost to Qatar was the USA, hardly a flawless country. The country that organized it in 2018 was Russia, certainly not a nicer regime than Qatar.

The issue with Qatar is that the main problem, worker exploitation, was a direct necessity of them hosting the World Cup. The situation is quite different than from other countries, the level of involvement, the moral calculus, it is not the same.

 

[Gehrman]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

 

[VorZakone]

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

Bizarre, ain't it.

 

[Gehrman]

Bizarre, ain't it.

It's a fine way to avoid the question. "I'm brainwashed and rather not say I agree with my religion that homosexuality is immoral and should be punished rather brutally."

 

[The Boy]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

This is what I do not understand though.

If Islam spoke with one voice on all issues then this would make perfect sense. But it doesn't, like all major religions there are millions upon millions of Muslims with different ideas, different cultures and different interpretations of religious texts.

You have chosen a conservative interpretation, that's your right, I personally disagree, but that's neither here not there. But that interpretation is your choice and to label your it as the only understanding of Islam is basic misinformation.

EDIT: In other words it is entirely your own opinion of those texts that guides your choices.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

That's a yes on 'is homosexuality is immoral' by any reasonable standard.

 

[Moby]

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

That's what indoctrination does.

 

[matherto]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

That's just laziness and passing the buck.

You're allowed to be an individual and still be a Muslim, you know that right?

 

[RoadTrip]

I think you've misunderstood the conversation. It happens if folk don't see the entirety and just come in at specific points.

I can't even remember how I joined this one. It then developed. It happens in conversation.

This particular case, as I understood it was to put my religion aside and give my opinion. My opinion is based on my religion and that is what I have and said

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

 

[SilentWitness]

The words from Van Dijk pretty much confirm that football comes before anything else for the players. Sad but not surprising.

 

[The Boy]

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

To condone Qatar's stance.

 

[Gehrman]

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

Cause probably if his opinion contradicted the Islamic Canon then he would be afraid of incurring gods wrath.

 

[Rocksy]

The words from Van Dijk pretty much confirm that football comes before anything else for the players. Sad but not surprising.

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

 

[Bole Top]

Is it really that unexpected, though?

Most of these campaigns serve the purpose of clout for them.

Taking the knee for BLM, rainbow armbands, MeToo movement.

of course it's not, very few are genuinely surprised. but they're also being expectedly called out now, which they entirely deserve. that's what happens when you're so vocal about certain cause but your support collapse at the first sign of any kind of consequence.

several teams refused to wear armbands and made their stance clear a while ago. they are now joined by every other nation who will also not wear them, but only couple of them were exposed as full of shit hypocrites. if they can accept praise, they should accept criticism as well. that's how it goes.

Qatar played this brilliantly it seems. people are enjoying games under their rules, players and managers behave just as they want it and other nations will face criticism after all those talks and big words because they backed down under the threats of yellow card. Qatar will remain the same as they've always been, but from now on, every strong support talk from players and managers will be met with doubt and ridicule because all of that have been tested and proven to be just empty words.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football?

Because when you want social change, you need people to support it, and footballers are people. Not very complicated.

 

[SilentWitness]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

Because they aren't just footballers, they're people who are members of our society and I'd like to live in a society that supports their fellow humans in the ways they need and deserve to be supported.

 

[BD]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

Cause it'd be nice if they'd use their power and visibility to push for some good change? It's not an obligation of course - they could just show up and play football. But then don't act as though you care, only to drop all idea of support when there's a bit of pressure.

 

[dumbo]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

“I play in a position where a yellow card is not useful. I became a football player and I want to play these kind of tournaments.
“There are people who say we don’t have a backbone, but that’s not how it works,”
“We just want to play football. I would have loved to play with that band, but not at the expense of a yellow card.”

It’s out of our control as players. I’m sure the FA and Fifa will continue those discussions but most importantly today we focused on the game and got a great result.”

"I think every coach now deserves the right to be able to focus on the football and we understand there are a lot of issues that people want to want us to speak about,"
"We've done that for 12 months, but this is a World Cup. We won't refuse to speak and we won't refuse to answer any questions otherwise answer anything. But the predominant part of my energy has to be on preparing the team."
"Actually, I do understand FIFA's situation in that you can set a precedent and it's very difficult then, where do you draw the line? I think in an ideal world, that would have been a much clearer situation earlier."
"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

tbh I don't know what people expected here. There isn't a single player in the major football leagues that is out of the closet. There have been multiple cases of players refusing these type of gestures in their own country's leagues. They did not fold because they lack backbone, they folded because support for these measures isn't actually all that widespread among them, and many of them are homophobes.

 

[BD]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

I hadn't actually bothered to find quotes from them, but they're actually worse than I might've thought.

Southgate: "I do understand FIFA...where do you draw the line?". feck off you gobshite

 

[SilentWitness]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.

"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.

 

[Lecland07]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it the decision they have made.

In the end, I think the focus is in the wrong area. The decision to hold a world cup has no direct impact on lgbt, but it did directly contribute to the deaths and mistreatment of migrant workers. That is where the focus should really be as that is something football could have done something about.

 

[SilentWitness]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it.

You seem to think that them doing this is to try and change the opinion of people in Qatar? It's bigger than that.

 

[Abizzz]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it the decision they have made.

In the end, I think the focus is in the wrong area. The decision to hold a world cup has no direct impact on lgbt, but it did directly contribute to the deaths and mistreatment of migrant workers. That is where the focus should really be as that is something football could have done something about.

If that is true it kills every argument for having a WC in Qatar at all.

 

[Roane]

This is what I do not understand though.

If Islam spoke with one voice on all issues then this would make perfect sense. But it doesn't, like all major religions there are millions upon millions of Muslims with different ideas, different cultures and different interpretations of religious texts.

You have chosen a conservative interpretation, that's your right, I personally disagree, but that's neither here not there. But that interpretation is your choice and to label your it as the only understanding of Islam is basic misinformation.

EDIT: In other words it is entirely your own opinion of those texts that guides your choices.

That's just laziness and passing the buck.

You're allowed to be an individual and still be a Muslim, you know that right?

Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.

Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.

In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.

I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

 

[tomaldinho1]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

Hand on heart did we expect anything else? Characters in football are about as meek as they come now, scared of doing anything remotely ‘different’.

There’s a lot of people will never look past Maradona as the goat because he was actually a human being, he’d not been brought up in luxury and as mental as he was he was just like all of us would be if we were crazily talented and then had the world at our feet.

Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.

"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.

Yeah surely if he’s going to not say anything positive he can just say ‘no comment, obviously we are not in agreement but I can’t say any more’ or something. It’s not a good look but it’s better than the waffle he’s coming out with.

 

[The Boy]

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

That's fine and I'm glad you admit that not all Muslims agree with you.

I find it interesting to finally hear that you choose to believe in something that oppresses approximately 10% of the world's population for what they are rather than choices they have made.

I also think it is really important for everyone here and elsewhere to understand that not all Muslims believe this and Islam is not an inherently homophobic religion. Like Christianity and other major religions, some sadly choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin but many others do not and instead believe that inclusivity, justice and love for all humanity are far far more important.

 

[matherto]

Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.

Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.

In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.

I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

So you're for all the nasty stuff in there too?

 

[Manncunian]

What annoys me most about this is that universal human rights are suddenly being re labelled as western values.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drawn up by the UN and all member countries took part. The representatives that encoded it were from different legal and cultural bckgrounds and included all the world's major religions. It is not some back of a fag packet document drawn up in London, Rome or Sydney, it is universal, it is the world's values.

This in spades.

And it’s working somewhat. Even some of those in the West are now convinced basic human rights are purely Western values and simply part of our culture, hence shouldn’t be part of every nation’s culture.

Labelling basic human rights as “values” or “cultural issues” enables it to become a battle between the West and the rest. This is just so wrong. Every human on the planet deserves access to basic human rights, and if any culture/belief/religion/politics says otherwise, it deserves absolutely NO respect from anyone. It should be called out and criticised until we are blue in the face.

However, it does feel very much like fighting a losing battle.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Says it all really. We really should have stood up for this issue instead of bowing to the pressure.

What kind of value is it to deny people basic human rights?

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This is why FIFA’s approved No Discrimination armband as a replacement for OneLove is a load of rubbish. It’s doesn’t mean No Discrimination to All, because the narrative from FIFA and Qatar this entire time has been “Don’t discriminate against our way of life that allows us to persecute the LGBT community.“

FIFA have really fecked up. And any time they try to spout shit about how inclusive they are from now on these images and videos will be thrown back at them.