Argentina NT | WC Discussion

[Doracle]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

 

[croadyman]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

They could consider it now it's not Brazil

 

[DrRodo]

Yup. It was one of those explosive matches which I do like. It's all become too placid nowadays.

Totally agree!

This match just needed a couple of red cards to become the best quarter final in ages

 

[Spiersey]

I was at the game last night. Dutch players were awful for every Argentina penalty, multiple players harassing the taker before and after they were taken. I think Argentina reaction was pretty justified.

Lahoz was awful though, he lost control of the match early needlessly and he never recovered it. Everyone in the stadium spent the entire time having no idea what he had actually whistled for and who it went to. I’d imagine the players had the same reaction and lost the heads.

 

[arnie_ni]

Because it was. The stoppages didn't add up to the time he added on. Three of the subs came on at the same time and took one minute. The big 'fight' near the end took one more minute. The time from Netherlands' goal to kick off was like 40 seconds. Argentina's goal lost one minute. Even accounting for the new approach to added time, 10 was on the generous side.

I'd ask why not even one additional minute was added on in the first half of extra time. Did all those stoppages just cease to happen from then on? There were two stoppages for subs in the second half of extra time and he only added on an extra minute. So the sub breaks were the only thing to delay the game in that period? There were no fouls, no moments where he spoke to players, no set pieces? If he's going to be pedantic as feck with timekeeping in one half, it's quite strange that he wouldn't carry that over for others, no?

I agree with your last part. The issue was no time added on in ET, not the 10 minutes. Argentina were wasting time at every opportunity they got.

I love the new directive and hope its applied throughout world football after this.

 

[the_cliff]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

No way.

Have you not watched them this tournament ?

Everything good they create in attack is down to Messi. Their whole tactic is defend for our lives and hope Messi opens the other team up. This is how they won the Copa America, Messi carries this team, without him they'll lose, even to a bad team never mind Croatia.

Can understand why the Argentina players were pissed off, considering all the talk pre game by Van Gaal, Van Basten, Van Der Vaart etc... The Netherlands weren't exactly respectful...

 

[alexthelion]

Really good bunch. Didn't fall for the dirty tactics of the Netherlands. After Brazil were knocked these are now clearly the team I root for.

White text?

 

[arnie_ni]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

Not a chance. All their attacking play goes through him.

 

[IFC 1905]

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the grandma saga

 

[Flanders Devil]

I was at the game last night. Dutch players were awful for every Argentina penalty, multiple players harassing the taker before and after they were taken. I think Argentina reaction was pretty justified.

Lahoz was awful though, he lost control of the match early needlessly and he never recovered it. Everyone in the stadium spent the entire time having no idea what he had actually whistled for and who it went to. I’d imagine the players had the same reaction and lost the heads.

This is interesting context, and not visible on TV. Only through some of the videos that emerged afterwards and people like you who were at the ground reporting, can you see it.

Clearly no love lost between the two teams. I'm not going to judge either way, but I do think if you dish it out you gotta take it.

 

[alexthelion]

So you justify ten subs running into the pitch to fight the opponents, ok.

In those circumstances, easily.

Argie was being a cnut, deserved anything he got.

 

[alexthelion]

yes

No

 

[Pocho]

In those circumstances, easily.

Argie was being a cnut, deserved anything he got.

Violence ok
Mockery bad
Got it

 

[KirkDuyt]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

 

[tenpoless]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

They can do that but they'll be risking losing it.

 

[alexthelion]

Violence ok
Mockery bad
Got it

Mockery?

He booted the ball at the Dutch bench for no reason.

He should have got a straight red.

 

[carvajal]

They have grown a lot during the tournament. Mac Allister, Enzo, yesterday I liked Nahuel and De Paul is playing with more confidence. Solid in defence and very committed.
In any case I don't understand the complaints with Mateu.

 

[Pocho]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

too much rivalry between Argentina and Netherlands. Both teams played with passion and that’s it.

 

[phelans shorts]

Can Messi play 3 games at such a high level in 9 days? He looked out on his feet yesterday in ET - very fortunate to get a couple of free kicks where he gave the ball away.

Could they risk leaving him out of the starting 11 for Croatia and relying on one of their other stars like Dybala instead, so Messi is fresh for the final?

No

 

[Pink Moon]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

It seems like the Argentina team were annoyed by van Gaal before the game even started so maybe that.

Although having watched Paredes for his entire career, I don't think anything prompted it. He's just an idiot. Every time I see him coming on for Argentina I get nervous because I know it's likely he'll do something batshit insane that will screw the team over.

 

[IFC 1905]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

paredes is an idiot, that’s the only explanation

 

[the_cliff]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

Judging by Van Gals comments pre game I actually think it was a part of his tactic. He said pre game:

"For penalties we have practiced on our shooting technique but also on how to get the opponent out of their game", seems like LVG instructions. Unfortunately, it backfired.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Fair enough, my issue was far more with your GK trying to act like a tough guy for no reason to De Jong and the kicked ball at the bench.

that was lame and to be honest I have stated many times that there definitely was behavior from Argentina that I didn’t like at all. And if anything if they just focused on football maybe they see out the 2-0 instead of getting both sides riled up.

It was also weird because none of the prior matches this tourney do we see them acting so aggressively.
And our gk is definitely a cnut I can’t defend that at all

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Emberrassing for us to lose the penos now it's clear how cnutish we were during them

Still not entirely sure what prompted Paredes to smash the ball into the dug out after hacking down Ake.

He’s an idiot. All of our subs outside of di maria were terrible

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

I agree. I had said that it would feel like a miracle, if they got that far. They started the tournament very badly and they gradually found their footing. They're not anything special (but, tbh, who is in this WC?), but they managed to strike a good balance between a team carried by Messi and a team that does all it can to help Messi do his thing. I also believe that winning the Copa America in Brazil lifted a huge burden off their shoulders.

I feel that LvG should be given credit for not giving up and throwing everything at them to turn the game around. But he was forced to do so because Scaloni had read the game very well this time. He knew that the Dutch would hit them in transition, that they would use the central channels to do it and that they would target Messi as the weak link in Argentina's defensive transition. So, he went with three at the back, he shut up shop in the middle and he basically had de Paul operating as Messi's bodyguard.

People like to talk about the shithousery, but this has become this team's biggest strength in the tournament. They don't let you play, they hunt you down and they put tremendous pressure on the ball. Yes, they play dirty at times (and i guess there's a lot of trash-talking going on, too), but this is their way toward the trophy: To be very aggressive off the ball.

Which brings me to your observation. I think Scaloni should stop playing with 10 men behind the ball to protect a lead. It may feel like the most secure thing to do, but it removes his team's biggest asset (besides Messi) off the equation. He did it very early against Australia, too, and they almost paid the price again against a vastly inferior opponent. It's a thing they need to work on. More so, when we know that the Croatians are excellent at making the few chances they create count.

Anyway, all the talk should be about THAT assist. On a podcast we have here, they showed a still frame (from an angle facing the Dutch goal) just before Messi hit the ball. You shouldn't be able to see that pass and you shouldn't be able to play that pass, either. It defies logic. But that's how you create a clear-cut chance with one hit of the ball in a 3v6 situation. And with this pass he surpassed Diego as the player who has created the most chances in the history of WCs. And it's moments like this when i realize how much i am going to miss him and what a privilege it has been to have watched his career in its entirety.

Superb post, agree with everything you said!

Scaloni’s subs need a lot of work. Di Maria should have come on sooner. We had the same panicky vibes against Australia. We’ll play good defense for 70 minutes and then turn into CL Barca (cl badca now, not 2011 ) for the other 20.

If Argentina go to the final and go that against France, England or Portugal they’ll get smacked.

but nice props to scaloni on his tactics. Croatia will be interesting because their midfield will dominate ours and I wonder how Argentina will respond to that

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

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Translation anyone? I'm sure it's not the ref.

it was to wegghorst. He was crap talking a lot during the PK’s.

 

[RoyH1]

I think the Argies overreacted at the end. They almost don’t seem like a team that won a game.
That said, the trash talking strategy of the Dutch was really misguided

 

[dinostar77]

Argentina arent a great team, dont have the legs to press but they have Messi. Just like Brasil 94, not a great team, but they had romario. That was enough. Maybe Messi will be enough....

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Superb post, agree with everything you said!

Scaloni’s subs need a lot of work. Di Maria should have come on sooner. We had the same panicky vibes against Australia. We’ll play good defense for 70 minutes and then turn into CL Barca (cl badca now, not 2011 ) for the other 20.

If Argentina go to the final and go that against France, England or Portugal they’ll get smacked.

but nice props to scaloni on his tactics. Croatia will be interesting because their midfield will dominate ours and I wonder how Argentina will respond to that

Cheers. The final is a single game, anything can happen. And you still have the best player in the history of the sport in your starting line-up. You won't get smacked by anyone.

Just to be clear, by saying "nothing special", i didn't mean to downplay Argentina's efforts. But i believe that in the 36 years that have passed since 1986, i have seen better reincarnations of your national team in WCs. Even in 2014, when you had a simple plan (some would say boring, but, who cares), you executed it to perfection and you came one Higuain shot away from taking the trophy to Buenos Aires. But this side may be the one that will go all the way. Another example is Italy in 1994 or Germany in 2002. Nothing special, but they found their talismans in Baggio and Ballack, they based their game around them and managed to play all 7 seven games in the end.

Scaloni has to work on his subs and on his plan when his team goes up a goal (or two) in the final stages of your games. I believe that against Australia he decided to park the bus and then he started to bring on the pitch the main culprits of the Saudi Arabia debacle... and after that the strangest things started to happen. But he also deserves credit for fixing things to make his team highly competitive. That little diamond he tries to create in the midfield has become almost immaculate in terms of positioning. What you lack is creativity on the flanks (i bet that whenever Messi plays his signature pass to the left side, he just closes his eyes and hopes that he'll see Jordi Alba instead of Acuna) and a good finisher to make the best of Messi's work between the lines (you can hope that Lautaro got a boost in morale after scoring the decisive penalty yesterday).

I think you'll go through. Brazil may have more options than you (both in transition and against set defences), but Croatia didn't suit them at all. They even defend well, but one thing they don't do as well as you is regaining possession. Croatia thrives on having possession, they get on the ball and they slow things down knowing that, even if they are a goal behind, they'll get their chance. If they manage to survive being hunted down by your players, kudos to them. But you'll have to convert your own chances and not allow them to stay in the game. Oh, and not drop to a low-block, if you're 1-0 up.

Anyway, keep singing your song. It sounds beautiful, and the lyrics are wonderful.

 

[VorZakone]

They desperately need their other forwards to share the responsibility with Messi. Alvarez, Lautaro, Di Maria etc have to do more.

 

[Pocho]

Cheers. The final is a single game, anything can happen. And you still have the best player in the history of the sport in your starting line-up. You won't get smacked by anyone.

Just to be clear, by saying "nothing special", i didn't mean to downplay Argentina's efforts. But i believe that in the 36 years that have passed since 1986, i have seen better reincarnations of your national team in WCs. Even in 2014, when you had a simple plan (some would say boring, but, who cares), you executed it to perfection and you came one Higuain shot away from taking the trophy to Buenos Aires. But this side may be the one that will go all the way. Another example is Italy in 1994 or Germany in 2002. Nothing special, but they found their talismans in Baggio and Ballack, they based their game around them and managed to play all 7 seven games in the end.

Scaloni has to work on his subs and on his plan when his team goes up a goal (or two) in the final stages of your games. I believe that against Australia he decided to park the bus and then he started to bring on the pitch the main culprits of the Saudi Arabia debacle... and after that the strangest things started to happen. But he also deserves credit for fixing things to make his team highly competitive. That little diamond he tries to create in the midfield has become almost immaculate in terms of positioning. What you lack is creativity on the flanks (i bet that whenever Messi plays his signature pass to the left side, he just closes his eyes and hopes that he'll see Jordi Alba instead of Acuna) and a good finisher to make the best of Messi's work between the lines (you can hope that Lautaro got a boost in morale after scoring the decisive penalty yesterday).

I think you'll go through. Brazil may have more options than you (both in transition and against set defences), but Croatia didn't suit them at all. They even defend well, but one thing they don't do as well as you is regaining possession. Croatia thrives on having possession, they get on the ball and they slow things down knowing that, even if they are a goal behind, they'll get their chance. If they manage to survive being hunted down by your players, kudos to them. But you'll have to convert your own chances and not allow them to stay in the game. Oh, and not drop to a low-block, if you're 1-0 up.

Anyway, keep singing your song. It sounds beautiful, and the lyrics are wonderful.

great great post

 

[gerdm07]

I agree with your last part. The issue was no time added on in ET, not the 10 minutes. Argentina were wasting time at every opportunity they got.

I love the new directive and hope its applied throughout world football after this.

It has to be done consistently though. 1 minute for the first half, 10 for the 2nd, and, I think, no added time for ET. That doesn't make sense and Argentina should feel the 10 was excessive and not right. I've watched other matches and with the same time wasting antics it's been 3, 5, 7 or 10 extra time.

 

[gerdm07]

I was at the game last night. Dutch players were awful for every Argentina penalty, multiple players harassing the taker before and after they were taken. I think Argentina reaction was pretty justified.

Lahoz was awful though, he lost control of the match early needlessly and he never recovered it. Everyone in the stadium spent the entire time having no idea what he had actually whistled for and who it went to. I’d imagine the players had the same reaction and lost the heads.

Thanks for sharing. Both teams have egg on their faces but the passion of the WC is so immense. Are you going to any more matches?

 

[BayernFan87]

...
same crap as neurs disrespectful “we know how to handle Messi” back in 2015

That answer to an interviewers question on how they plan to stop Messi is so disrespectful to you that you complain about it 7 years later?

Wow you Messi fanboys are really something else.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

That answer to an interviewers question on how they plan to stop Messi is so disrespectful to you that you complain about it 7 years later?

Wow you Messi fanboys are really something else.

“we will beat Argentina and Brazil” “if it goes to penalties we have the advantage”

and watch how Dutch were acting during PK’s

 

[Conor]

That answer to an interviewers question on how they plan to stop Messi is so disrespectful to you that you complain about it 7 years later?

Wow you Messi fanboys are really something else.

The Argentinians in general seem to take great offence to fairly innocuous comments made by opposing teams, I was waiting to hear some really out of line stuff when querying what the Dutch had said to cause so much offence, some posturing about being able to win and comments on Messi's lack of work defensively wasn't what I was expecting.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

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@Regulus Arcturus Black Dutch were acting like massive cnuts. Argentina weren’t angels but Dutch were real POS during this

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@Regulus Arcturus Black Dutch were acting like massive cnuts. Argentina weren’t angels but Dutch were real POS during this

Ah, makes sense.

 

[thekman]

I always felt that Messi is technically better than Maradona, but lacks in toughness, aggressiveness and leadership. But today's game starts to change my opinion of him. The next potential hurdle would be if an opponent scores first, whether he can keep up his performance instead of lowering his head.

Really hard to compare them technically because Maradona played on worse pitches in a more violent era, I would argue they are probably about the same talent-wise in that department. Both genius passers of the ball, Messi probably a more natural goalscorer in any era, Maradona vastly superior leader however.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

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@KirkDuyt