Why has the French national team been so good since 1998?
- Thread starter horsechoker
- Start date
When France beat Denmark (1984, 1998, 2000, 2018 and now potentially 2022) they always go on to lift the trophy right? Not that it has any bearing on tomorrow but I love stats like that !
I work with several French people (it’s especially fun during World Cups working with people from such a wide range of countries), and their knowledge of European football is incredibly good. They can effortlessly summarise the strengths and weaknesses of Everton, the Dutch national team etc. Speaking more and more to people like this who know their football (far more than I do) has made me often not bother to watch the ‘state the obvious’ studio analysis of games on TV.
I work with several French people (it’s especially fun during World Cups working with people from such a wide range of countries), and their knowledge of European football is incredibly good. They can effortlessly summarise the strengths and weaknesses of Everton, the Dutch national team etc. Speaking more and more to people like this who know their football (far more than I do) has made me often not bother to watch the ‘state the obvious’ studio analysis of games on TV.
We actually didn't beat Denmark in 2018!
When you take points against Denmark. (which you failed to do in 2002)
Thanks for some reason I mixed up the Denmark and Peru games in the group stage.
So as another poster said, when France do not lose to Denmark, they go on to lift the trophy.
To be honest, I don't think they even were that good. I mean, they produce great players in large quantities but performance-wise, they aren't really all that impressive. IMO they weren't the best team in 2018 and in 2022 they've also been quite underwhelming. Spain 2008-2012 would have wiped the floor with them I believe. And Brazil 2002 was also better.
The immigration part is relevant, although tend to agree with those who think it's largely a motivational aspect (embracing opportunities, striving to make it big, etc).
Disagree on the stealing talent angle. African countries are actually getting better through having more of their players in Europe + a significant amount of their NT playets are European born and bred.
The thing is though, we aren't just seeing better defenders, attackers, or athletes. We are seeing strength in depth across the board and I'd argue that has more to do with how the league focuses on developing young players. Also, I don't think it is coincidental that Clairefontaine was set up in 1988 and many such centres opened thereafter.
Disagree on the stealing talent angle. African countries are actually getting better through having more of their players in Europe + a significant amount of their NT playets are European born and bred.
The thing is though, we aren't just seeing better defenders, attackers, or athletes. We are seeing strength in depth across the board and I'd argue that has more to do with how the league focuses on developing young players. Also, I don't think it is coincidental that Clairefontaine was set up in 1988 and many such centres opened thereafter.
That's one of the key things that always gets overlooked about French Football. The high level of organisation at grassroots means kids with an ounce of talent are normally scouted and not lost in the system. Someone I knew who played semi-pro in France was telling how even if you don't make it at a big academy, there's still a pathway for players to start off at the 3rd/4th division and work their way up. That was the case for the likes of N'golo Kante and Tanguy Ndombele, who both played in the Championnat Nation (3rd Division).
On top of this, I think access to pitches in France is very good, when compared to the UK for example. I remember this interview from Mahrez Youtube link, who talked about the lack of kids playing football outside in England (ie in the streets), compared to the area he grew up in the Ile de France region. Where I grew up, from my experience, access to places to play football was quite minimal. You normally had to go to the park. If you lived in an estate, most of them had the infamous 'no ball games' sign and many didn't have a cage to play football in. I think this makes a huge impact on the type of talent that is produced when comparing France to the UK for example. Whenever I watch France, the player just seem to have a natural feel for the game, that many of our players here lack.
It's not even something anyone can agree or disagree with, it's just factually wrong. The immense majority of french players were born in France, no talents were poached or stolen and the fact that someone even tried to make this argument is absurd.
Of course it's relevant. What's puzzling is those who get so touchy about it. It can be true AND also be true that France have an excellent talent identification and training system.
People are touchy about it because the interpreration made about the role of imigration is often really wrong, borderline (if not fully) racist and this thread is a good exemple of that, lots and lots of nonsense.
The grit part is probably true, for a lot of poor kids, football is one of the only way up. Parents will push them hard (sometimes too hard) because they don't have a lot of hope they'll get a decent degree. Being a professionnal football player isn't a carreer that a lot of middle class parent would support for their kids and some of them don't even want their kids to play football so they don't mix with poor kids. Imigrants don't have these stupid principles so if the kid is good, they'll let him go for it and will be proud about it.
The fact that you asnwered "Yup its a huge factor." to a post that said that france is poaching all the best players shows how little you understand about what's going on in France. There's a LOT of players born in France who play for african countries while there's virtually no player who plays for France after being born in an african country.
I've met at least three French people in my life and none of them were cnuts, so that might be why they're so good at football.
To be fair I've also been friends with three Germans and none of them were cnuts either, but one of them was fecking mental.
Every Scots I've ever met has been a cnut, yet every English person I've met isn't a cnut. Maybe my logic is flawed...
To be fair I've also been friends with three Germans and none of them were cnuts either, but one of them was fecking mental.
Every Scots I've ever met has been a cnut, yet every English person I've met isn't a cnut. Maybe my logic is flawed...
Yeah, feck it. It's because of the cheese.
Worth noting that the French also have this "non, feck you too, haw hee haw hee haw" approach to life. Don't like the elite? feck protesting, just kill the feckers whilst wearing silk frilly gowns. Frilly gowns are now out of fashion? Just protest and burn some houses. Americans are fighting an impossible war against the largest Empire for a thousand years? Let me get some of that sweet action. fecking RISE, cuntos.
British Empire are colonising the world? Hold my wine glass (and redact the atrocities our Empire caused like the British do). The largest invading force since Genghis Khan destroy our country twice and hold us under totalitarian occupation whilst the British promise to help but sit on their arses for a year? Secret spy network of mercenaries, bitches. Our farming land is now completely fecked? Don't give a shit, have some of the best food and drink in the world because we're French and we bend reality to our will. Not giving us a pay rise? Put a high vis jacket on and burn some cars Iol.
The French are nuts. If they're not shagging 24/7 they have to put their focus into something otherwise they'll just start a revolution.
British Empire are colonising the world? Hold my wine glass (and redact the atrocities our Empire caused like the British do). The largest invading force since Genghis Khan destroy our country twice and hold us under totalitarian occupation whilst the British promise to help but sit on their arses for a year? Secret spy network of mercenaries, bitches. Our farming land is now completely fecked? Don't give a shit, have some of the best food and drink in the world because we're French and we bend reality to our will. Not giving us a pay rise? Put a high vis jacket on and burn some cars Iol.
The French are nuts. If they're not shagging 24/7 they have to put their focus into something otherwise they'll just start a revolution.
Last edited:
It's lauding people like Harry Maguire is part of the problem with the English mentality. All compassion and mental health bollox. Just go out and win the match.
English commentators have been saying Maguire has been one of the best defenders at the World Cup. The rest of the world are laughing at them. He's useless.
France seem to have more common sense. The position change of Griezman has been a revelation. Mbappe is brilliant. They're a joy to watch.
English commentators have been saying Maguire has been one of the best defenders at the World Cup. The rest of the world are laughing at them. He's useless.
France seem to have more common sense. The position change of Griezman has been a revelation. Mbappe is brilliant. They're a joy to watch.
I challenge you to pull any post up in this thread that's borderline or fully racist. The racist line is suggesting or insinuating that French citizens who are descendants of citizens from elsewhere, are less than French, or second class. That has not been said (by me at least) so stick it, and stop being touchy about things not being said.
I don't think France is poaching people from outside the country.
Turns out, it's way more efficient to
1. Create a shit-ton of colonies (draw random lines on a map that make no fecking sense and claim the parts that are given to France)
2. Leave them in destitute conditions when you "graciously" grant them independence
3. Become a prime destination for migrants looking to leave said former colonies (torn apart by coups (some backed by France, by the way), economic mismanagement, ethnic strife (guess who planted the seeds of that... Remember random lines from 1))
4. Benefit from the huge talent pool augmented by the children/grandchildren (who are 100% actual French citizens, just as legit as citizens who have their roots and trackable ancestry in France) of those migrants
5. Claim that those former colonies should actually be grateful for the French citizens who choose to play for the countries of their ancestors, ignoring points 1-4
Can't ignore the excellent grassroots system in France, Ligue 1 being an excellent incubator of talent, and Clairfontaine of course. All countries should look to replicate this (ship's sailed on the colonialism part)
Now, good sir, help me fill in the gaps. Did I miss anything?
Good post. Also, I have another theory (just pulled it out of my ass). Football is a sport for the working class, nurtured by rich fans. Your country can have a decent NT if you only have one of them, but you need both elements to have a great NT.
A local amateur side have toured France a couple times going back decades, and they were blown away by the pitches and facilities. Admittedly their pitch is literally a muddy slope, but they were blown away by what they experienced and have been every time
The situations aren't very different. Spain won their last international trophy ten years ago.
It took France 18 years to win another international trophy since the Euros 2000 win, and 10 years to reach another final since 2006 WC.
France were bad in 2002 WC (out in group stages), passable in 2004 Euros (out in QFs to Greece), bad in Euros 2008 (out in group stages), bad in WC 2010 (out in group stages), mediocre in Euros 2012 (out in R16), good in 2014 WC (out in QFs). There is no amazing consistency over 30 years here, just two great generations instead of one.
Last edited:
Benzema - Algerian
Zidane- Algerian
Mbappe - Cameroon / Algerian
Dembele - Mali/Senegal
Upamecano - Guinea-Bissau
Kante - Mali
Pogba- Guinean
Makelele- Congo
Desailly- Ghana
Vieira - Senegal
Tigana- French Sudan
Fekir- Algerian
Then there is the French West Indies mix of ethnicity.
Thierry Henry
Varane
Martial
Anelka
Lemar
Payet
Thuram
Wiltord
Coman
Saha
Gallas
Their mix of ethnicity is simply amazing and then they also have better ways of growing up and playing, studying football than players that simply grew up in Africa or West Indies.
Zidane- Algerian
Mbappe - Cameroon / Algerian
Dembele - Mali/Senegal
Upamecano - Guinea-Bissau
Kante - Mali
Pogba- Guinean
Makelele- Congo
Desailly- Ghana
Vieira - Senegal
Tigana- French Sudan
Fekir- Algerian
Then there is the French West Indies mix of ethnicity.
Thierry Henry
Varane
Martial
Anelka
Lemar
Payet
Thuram
Wiltord
Coman
Saha
Gallas
Their mix of ethnicity is simply amazing and then they also have better ways of growing up and playing, studying football than players that simply grew up in Africa or West Indies.
Here is one:
As has been pointed out, the players in the French national team were born in France. So either, the poster assumed the birthplace of players due to their name and ethnicity, or the poster is referring to a group of unnamed players born in Africa, trying to play for the French NT instead of African NT, and not making the cut.
There's also your post:
This kind of stuff is not borderline racist, but it is questionable.
The definition of talent pool is (per the Cambridge Dictionary): "the suitable, skilled people who are available to be chosen to do a particular type of job."
This definition fits well if we are talking about African football players who migrate to France. They are suitable, skilled people (they know how to play football at high level) and "available to be chosen to do a particular type of job" (can obtain nationality through some connection to French colonies in some way).
But this definition does not fit 'children of immigrants born in France.' Babies are not suitable, skilled people: they have no skills. Skills are learned.
Hence, the phrase "the talent pool is augmented by the grandchildren of those migrants" does not make much sense, unless we are talking about skills that aren't taught. In which case, we are just saying "Africans are genetically better at playing football."
If we are not talking about this, then the phrase is meaningless. There would be no difference between saying "the talent pool is augmented by the grandchildren of migrants" and "the talent pool is augmented by the grandchildren of non-migrants." In which case we are not talking about immigration. We are just talking about demographic growth and population size. The only role immigration would have there is in changing the trends for France relative to the rest of Europe.
Last edited:
Yeah there’s never been any players born in Africa who went on to be successful with France. Definitely not Umtiti, Evra, Mandanda, Vieira, Desailly, Makelale or even Just Fontaine.
87% of France’s 2018 World Cup winning squad were either immigrants or the children of immigrants. But yeah, it’s definitely racism to point this out.
Saying second/third generation immigrants belong in any way to Africa ("their players") is definitely a traditional racist talking point, especially in France.
There's a reason French players themselves pushed back against this notion in 2018, and it isn't because they suddenly forgot about the notion of cultural heritage or being binationals.
I didn’t say second or third generation players belong to Africa? I said some players born in Africa have chosen to represent France instead. That’s just a fact.
That's some scouting from the French
To see the potential in 2, 1, 2, 8, 4 and 4 year olds is special!Fontaine is the only one who was "nabbed" from your list.
That's not where the racist talking post is.
On top of that, it has nothing to do with France "nabbing the best players" since pretty much all the players you mentionned arrived in France when they were too young to walk, let alone know they'd ever be professionnal football players. (Umtiti was 2, Desailly was 4, Makelele was 5 etc.). Them coming to France has NOTHING to do with their football talent.
You said "France always nabs [Africa's] best players."
This is completely different than saying that players born in Africa have chosen to represent France instead.
I wonder if Higuain regrets not picking his country and instead playing for Argentina.
Same goes for Koulibaly.
Well you didn’t literally think I was accusing them of kidnapping did you?
You've been told why what you wrote is nonsensical, and yet here you are playing dumb again.
And the Germanic tribes were Scandinavians who came south, and the Scandinavians were a mix of the old Western Hunter gatherers and a semi-unknowm people moving in from what is now northern Russia. The Western hunter gatherers mostly died out when the indo-europeans moved in, except for the Basque, whose language is one of the few "native" languages which survived the arrival of the indo-european warrior societies.
And so it goes on - the more we understand how to interpret DNA, the more silly this whole blood and soil stuff becomes.
Mous @kouroux i know the immigration line is brought up a ton, but here’s my uninformed opinion.
Africa produces some of the most naturally gifted footballers around - on top of great athleticism. The biggest drawback is usually the lack of infrastructure, nutrition, coaching at grassroots (& other) levels due to poverty and well, being poor.
Add this natural ability - both technically and physically (west Africans as an example, tend to be bigger than sun-Saharan Africans as an example) to elite youth coaching setups in France and there’s a fantastic contributor/pipeline for France to develop/choose from. Not diminishing anything the French federation has done at development level btw. Just my uninformed opinion being here down south on the continent. Thoughts?
Haven’t read the thread, so apologies if it’s been covered. FYI @JPRouve
Africa produces some of the most naturally gifted footballers around - on top of great athleticism. The biggest drawback is usually the lack of infrastructure, nutrition, coaching at grassroots (& other) levels due to poverty and well, being poor.
Add this natural ability - both technically and physically (west Africans as an example, tend to be bigger than sun-Saharan Africans as an example) to elite youth coaching setups in France and there’s a fantastic contributor/pipeline for France to develop/choose from. Not diminishing anything the French federation has done at development level btw. Just my uninformed opinion being here down south on the continent. Thoughts?
Haven’t read the thread, so apologies if it’s been covered. FYI @JPRouve
You imply that there's a "natural ability" or "natural gift" that players from africa are supposed to have.There's absolutely no evidence it exists.
One could wonder if physically, african players carry some DNA that would make them more suited for professionnal football. This argument is discussed for decades in the USA and has mostly been rejected by scientists. The slim genetic differences between whites and blacks (to sum it up) can't account for the gaps in performances.
The main reason why players with african origins are more successful in sport in western countries is that society presents them with few other options.
Oly already made the point, but it bears repeating: France did not "nab" players because they were not players, they were children.
There is nothing inherently wrong with suggesting that immigration has something to do with France's success. It's a hypothesis, and it can be true or false. Based on the evidence, it looks false. No biggie.
The problem is that people, including you, are not talking about immigration. You are not talking about the talent pool. You are talking about the gene pool.
It is annoying, to listen to what is essentially race science, couched as a critique of colonialism. You cannot leftistly use calipers to measure skulls.
Last edited:
We can debate semantics all you like. The point I was originally making was this: the France national team has benefited more than most from the immigration of people into France, some of whom go on to be very good at kicking a football. I didn’t mean to imply you literally “nab” players from other countries right before they make their debut for some other nation. I wasn’t trying to imply this should dilute their success either. I don’t really see how this is at all controversial really.
One reason that hasn't been mentioned is the French academies put much more emphasis on developing technique and speed of movement with and without the ball compared to other nations.
For example the English EPPP's principles are:
- Increase the number and quality of home-grown players gaining professional contracts in the clubs and playing first-team football at the highest level
- Create more time for players to play and be coached
- Improve coaching provision
- Implement a system of effective measurement and quality assurance
- Positively influence strategic investment into the Academy System, demonstrating value for money
France clairfontaine principles:
- Making the player's movements faster and better
- Linking movements efficiently and wisely
Using the weaker foot
- Weaknesses in the player's game
- Medical factors
- Physical tests (beep test)
- Technical skills
- Skill training (juggling the ball, running with the ball, dribbling, kicking, passing and ball control)
- Tactical (to help the ball carrier, to get the ball back, to offer support, to pass the ball and follow the pass, positioning and the movement into space)
The English use a lot of words, but nothing touches on what type of players they're trying to develop. In comparison the the French federation specifically outline improving technique and movements.
This also explains why France have produced some of the best coaches too I.e. Wenger, Deschamps etc. In France there is more specificity towards the type of players they're developing.
For example the English EPPP's principles are:
- Increase the number and quality of home-grown players gaining professional contracts in the clubs and playing first-team football at the highest level
- Create more time for players to play and be coached
- Improve coaching provision
- Implement a system of effective measurement and quality assurance
- Positively influence strategic investment into the Academy System, demonstrating value for money
France clairfontaine principles:
- Making the player's movements faster and better
- Linking movements efficiently and wisely
Using the weaker foot
- Weaknesses in the player's game
- Medical factors
- Physical tests (beep test)
- Technical skills
- Skill training (juggling the ball, running with the ball, dribbling, kicking, passing and ball control)
- Tactical (to help the ball carrier, to get the ball back, to offer support, to pass the ball and follow the pass, positioning and the movement into space)
The English use a lot of words, but nothing touches on what type of players they're trying to develop. In comparison the the French federation specifically outline improving technique and movements.
This also explains why France have produced some of the best coaches too I.e. Wenger, Deschamps etc. In France there is more specificity towards the type of players they're developing.
Natural ability isn't a thing when it comes to technique. Africans don't have a magical gene that allow them to control or dribble a football, some may be better athletes but most aren't.
Fundamentally the technical side of things is the same for everyone and the countries that develop good technicians have one thing in common, Football is heavily played and learned in the streets, with dodgy footballs and dodgier playing fields. That's true for everyone whether you are talking about white eastern europeans a while ago, Argentines, Brazilians, Spanish, French and of course millions of African kids. The other thing is to play a lot of Football, by that I'm talking about playing at least 5 or 6 hours of Football per day as a kid during holidays or when you don't have school(Wednesday, Saturday or Sunday).
Technique, agility and gaining a certain understanding of how to play individually isn't a natural ability, it's the product of thousands of hours of practice. In some countries kids are too glued to screens or only play very organized Football, they miss a lot of practice time.
It just clicked in 1998 at the world cup stage. Being at home helped a lot
Before the team were very talented as well: Platini & co in the 80s, Papin, Cantona & co in the 90s
Luck was involved in the 80s with both semi final against Germany were very close
And Deschamps is the master of luck and is the common point of world cup 1998, 2018 and Euro 2000. And I hope 2022
Before the team were very talented as well: Platini & co in the 80s, Papin, Cantona & co in the 90s
Luck was involved in the 80s with both semi final against Germany were very close
And Deschamps is the master of luck and is the common point of world cup 1998, 2018 and Euro 2000. And I hope 2022