Whilst I agree Messi has surpassed Ronaldo, I’d still have Ronaldo in the mix. Arguably Ronaldo could be ahead of Maradonna and Pele. I’m not arguing the case as I don’t know myself. But he should be in the mix.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
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Andd dribbling.
Also, even when it comes to CL goals... Ronaldo isn't exactly streaks ahead. There's only difference of 16 goals. And Ronaldo may very well have played his last CL game.
That's what I find a little confusing about the debate. It's often portrayed as Messi the playmaker vs Ronaldo the goal scorer and giving more weight to Ronaldo's goals. Ignoring the fact that Messi has a higher goal scoring rate. It's bizarre.
The journalist wanted a moment with the trophy
Messi is only behind Ronaldo in total goals by 25 goals but have played 10000 less minutes and for Argentina and midway through his career started dropping deeper simply than being the tip of the spear he managed to run games and keep up his insane goalscoring rate
Ronaldo is a phenomenal player who sacrificed his whole game to keep parity with Messi on goal output and has basically succeeded. In fact in their respective primes I may even give CR7 a 5% edge on pure goal-nabbing ability.
But Messi is a five dimensional player to CR7's barely three dimensions.
They're simply not the same league of footballer. Ronaldo scores because the whole of his CPU is focussed on scoring goals. He's not been a top all around player for 10 years or more.
Messi scores goals almost as an accidental conclusion of his general mastery*. For Messi to average close to a goal a game, he has to sacrifice nothing in the way of dribbling, playmaking, link play etc. In fact quite the opposite, he thrives when involved in selfless link up play as is goals are often part of moves he's been involved in further upstream.
Ronaldo fans usually fall into the category of loving him for his sheer force of nature willpower and longevity, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's inspirational for people with human talents.
But Messi is clearly a world apart as a footballer. He always was. This was true before the WC started and I'm just glad the fact is underlined now.
* I will concede Messi has benefitted from a few pens in this tournament
But Messi is a five dimensional player to CR7's barely three dimensions.
They're simply not the same league of footballer. Ronaldo scores because the whole of his CPU is focussed on scoring goals. He's not been a top all around player for 10 years or more.
Messi scores goals almost as an accidental conclusion of his general mastery*. For Messi to average close to a goal a game, he has to sacrifice nothing in the way of dribbling, playmaking, link play etc. In fact quite the opposite, he thrives when involved in selfless link up play as is goals are often part of moves he's been involved in further upstream.
Ronaldo fans usually fall into the category of loving him for his sheer force of nature willpower and longevity, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's inspirational for people with human talents.
But Messi is clearly a world apart as a footballer. He always was. This was true before the WC started and I'm just glad the fact is underlined now.
* I will concede Messi has benefitted from a few pens in this tournament
Absolutely
I've never thought so (even before the events of this past month) because he is not a complete player. He was more so at Manchester United (and early on with Madrid). If he'd remained that kind of player and still scored 800 goals then he'd have a much better argument IMO. However, I strongly suspect that he wouldn't have been able to score that many goals if he didn't alter his game to become a poacher.
Made exactly the same point on the Ronaldo thread.
If he'd stayed as a winger-type he'd have been a Bale-esq player.
Brilliant but nowhere near the figures
Hi, first post here, been lurking for years but finally decide to join the party.
Even in Portugal, the narrative is changing.
We were always told by the media, coaches, players that Ronaldo is the best ever, but I think that will stop now.
Most of my friends are Ronaldo fans, had lots of discussions with them over the years about the same old arguments, Messi is nothing without Xavi, Iniesta, doesn't produce outside Barcelona, not good for Argentina, etc. and they now concede that Messi is the goat.
I always found it weird, maybe cause I'm a Porto fan, the level of delusion of some Sporting fans about Ronaldo, sure he is from their academy, but he barely played there, his success was abroad.
For me Messi was always better.
Even in Portugal, the narrative is changing.
We were always told by the media, coaches, players that Ronaldo is the best ever, but I think that will stop now.
Most of my friends are Ronaldo fans, had lots of discussions with them over the years about the same old arguments, Messi is nothing without Xavi, Iniesta, doesn't produce outside Barcelona, not good for Argentina, etc. and they now concede that Messi is the goat.
I always found it weird, maybe cause I'm a Porto fan, the level of delusion of some Sporting fans about Ronaldo, sure he is from their academy, but he barely played there, his success was abroad.
For me Messi was always better.
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Finally, a Portuguese fan that makes sense in this forum on a Ronaldo topic, thanks for the objective comment..
There is a whole lot between them.
The only thing Ronaldo has on Messi is he jumps higher and he's faster without the ball. Messi trumps him in everything else.
Ronaldo can't be the 2nd greatest player of all-time when he's got a total of zero goals in the KO stages of the WC, while his fans attest to him being the best goal-scorer of all-time. It doesn't compute. And he's got no Golden Balls at the Euros nor WC.
It's funny, because Gerd Muller is arguably a better goal-scorer than him and he's never brought up in GOAT debates and Ronaldo's goal-scoring feats are often the main argument for his 'GOAT status'. He just lacks a certain artistry with the ball if he's asked to create that weighs him down for me. Can't ignore his incredible goal-scoring volume, but he's a relatively weak dribbler/playmaker compared to other giants of the game. He's still one of the best players ever, but a notch below Pele, Maradona and Messi.
This is what I don't get how can this guy be in the conversation when he cannot even beat Gerd Muller in terms of goal scoring.
Ronaldo is not even a top-100 WC player despite playing in 5 WC editions. And, then people get irritated when he's called a fraud
The amount of PR, social media attention he receives to artificially elevate him even in this forum is unbelievable, the constant manipulations to change the narrative creating an alternative history, really crazy.Had Gerd Muller had the same social media exposure, he would also be considered a top-3 GOAT easily, and he would have a much stronger case than Ronaldo.. Yet, in reality he has always been considered behind Cruyff and Beckenbauer..
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Looking back, the fact that there were actual discussions on here about the value of heading vs playmaking and which of these made you the more complete player is just uncanny.
Ronaldo made the conscious decision to strip down his game too to become purely a poacher and to change the argument into a goals race. I think he was a good dribbler at one point, maybe not Messi/Maradona level, but more than good enough for it not to be a deficiency, but he actively chose to stop doing it as he got older or to develop that side of his game.
Why dribble and pass, when I can be lurking in the box to score became his mantra. Also not pressing for years and avoiding dribbling in tight areas has helped him avoid injuries and burnout and allowed him to play more games than any outfielder ever. But it’s meant that he’s rarely had a game like say Benzema against PSG last year where he was all action and carrying a team like that. He would consider that superfluous work when he could be in the box. For most of Ronaldo’s most trophy-laden years it became ‘Ronaldo did nothing in general play but he scored’, but maybe we should question why he was constantly doing nothing.
He could have played 200 games less and scored 150 fewer goals I think but kept a more rounded game and it wouldn’t have affected his legacy. He still would have had a shitload of goals anyway.
was only last summer Gary Neville was claiming Ron is the greatest because “which player would you rather coming off the bench”
Something that is glowingly hypocritical here is this nonsense that Messi is the greatest playmaker ever while Ronaldo is just some cheap goal poacher. Since Ronaldo has been at Madrid assists are Messi 177, Ronaldo 120. Over a 500 game span Messi will produce 50 more assist or 1 extra assist every 10 games. That is hardly light years of separation in any way. It actually rather insignificant really. I have demonstrated time and again that Ronaldo's final ball ability is as versatile, technically challenging and as visionary as it gets. Messi's role and surrrounding team has always been much more conducive to playmaking where they play the same buildups over and over and Messi is quarterbacking the play. We all know the diagonal outlet pass he plays 20 times a game because of repetition. Ronaldo also plays with much more wasteful players as Messi has had some of the greatest strikers spanning two generations. Messi has so many more passes played, possessions, better finishers etc. that his assist advantage over Ronaldo could be seen as underwhelming.
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Messi is a gifted artist born with huge amount of talents
Ronaldo is more like a dubstep football cyborg
If we're talking about anime (I'm not a weeb)
Messi = Captain Tsubasa
Ronaldo = Santana
Ronaldo is more like a dubstep football cyborg
If we're talking about anime (I'm not a weeb)
Messi = Captain Tsubasa
Ronaldo = Santana
Why do achievements of a team/squad of 11 + support players/staff + everything else that goes into a team performance have any effect on the judgement of one player? its moronic.
I've never said that.
I'm under the impression that you actually didn't read my post and are just ranting and throwing stats left and right to back it up. If you can't see why Messi is what we call a playmaker and Ronaldo isn't that type of player, then let us agree to disagree.
I agree that Ronaldo was not a playmaker. But he wasn't just a "Striker" as you said either.
Ah understood
I just couldn't bear witness to any slight befalling the original greatest of all time!( i think he popularized the term as well bu im not sure.)
Imagine thinking assists are the true reflection of playmaking
Gerd Muller had 102 assists in 568 games, 0.18 per game
Lewandowski 139 assists in 695 games, 0.20 per game
Ronaldo 223 in 949 games, 0.23 per game
Haaland 49 in 201 games, 0.2 per game
Benzema 187 in 765, 0.24 per game
Modric 121 in 687 games, 0.18 per game
Iniesta 163 in 851 games, 0.18 per game
Zidane 138 in 639 games, 0.2 per game
Referring to this Ronaldo fan's logic, one can conclude that Benzema, Lewa, Ronaldo, Haaland are all better playmakers than Modric, Zidane and Iniesta and that Gerd Muller has similar playmaking abilities as Modric and Iniesta... why? because asists
This is what I am talking about when it comes to Ronaldo fans, they are totally clueless, are not even aware of the basic qualities of a playmaker.. cannot process the basic fact that just because of their heavy presence in the penalty box area, most strikers have great assist numbers.. does not understand that playmaking is about passing quality, technique, vision, ball control, creativity... They cannot process that there are basic assists like most in the penalty box area, and there are assists like those made by Messi against Holland and Croatia..
Read below but before take your copium please..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...i-crowned-best-playmaker-decade-makes-20.html
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Then it was poorly worded from me. I've never questioned his footballing intelligence nor reduced him to some Inzaghi on steroids.
Well no it's definitely not a tougher level of competition, I mean look at the teams Argentina and France faced to get to the final this year and try with a straight face to say that the players they faced were as good as PSG or Bayern Munich or atletico or juventus. The world cup is a maximum of 7 games every 4 years playing in a team that you don't regularly train with. That's why I don't consider it to have a huge weight on judging how good a player is, Pele won 3 but even if Messi hadn't won this world cup, what he did over his entire club career matters far more than what Pele did in 21 games that his teams could have probably won without him
Yeah, I didn't actually say the CL was a bigger achievement than the world cup, I said it was a higher level of football and it clearly is, the fact the world cup is only every 4 years obviously makes each one more special than a competition that happens every year but it also means that if you're using it to seriously judge players then you're doing it from a very small sample size even for people with careers as long as Messi and Ronaldo's
clearly the greatest ever. maradonna and pele cannot match messis ability (maradona maybe can) and longetivity
To be fair, you'd be mental not to start the match with Messi.
Despie Messi scoring more off the bench. And Neville deliberately removing some of Messis key trophies like his copa and a cl title.
Imagine thinking assists are the true reflection of playmaking
Gerd Muller had 102 assists in 568 games, 0.18 per game
Lewandowski 139 assists in 695 games, 0.20 per game
Ronaldo 223 in 949 games, 0.23 per game
Haaland 49 in 201 games, 0.2 per game
Benzema 187 in 765, 0.24 per game
Modric 121 in 687 games, 0.18 per game
Iniesta 163 in 851 games, 0.18 per game
Zidane 138 in 639 games, 0.2 per game
Referring to this Ronaldo fan's logic, one can conclude that Benzema, Lewa, Ronaldo, Haaland are all better playmakers than Modric, Zidane and Iniesta and that Gerd Muller has similar playmaking abilities as Modric and Iniesta... why? because asists
This is what I am talking about when it comes to Ronaldo fans, they are totally clueless, are not even aware of the basic qualities of a playmaker.. cannot process the basic fact that just because of their presence in the penalty box area, most strikers have great assist numbers.. does not understand that playmaking is about passing quality, technique, vision, ball control, creativity... They cannot process that there are basic assists like most in the penalty box area, and there are assists like made by Messi against Holland and Croatia..
Read below but before take your copium please..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...i-crowned-best-playmaker-decade-makes-20.html
Your argument would make sense if I were talking about a center forward compared to a playmaker. But no, I'm comparing a left Winger that cuts inside to score/assist to a Playmaker. Have you seen Ronaldo's assists? He made beautiful crosses and beautiful passes from outside the box.
It's not really so much that people think he's the GOAT because he has a WC now. He was anyway. More that his lack of a WC was used as a stick to beat him with before, and now that dumb argument is gone.6 penalties this WC and he's everyone's goat
Maradona’s longevity is not respected enough. He was smashing it up as a 17 year old and was unlucky not to make the 1978 World Cup. He dominated South American football, when world stars were playing there. (Argentina 78 team and Brazil 82 team all played their football there at that time). He came to Baraclona and had a career threatening injury, which he came back from. 1984-1990 he played in the hardest and toughest league in the world when two footed tackles were a norm and pitches that were mud baths. All this was done on a party lifestyle which he was almost forced into by the Italian mafia. This guy deserves so much more credit than his 1986 World Cup and two tiles with Napoli. (Which were a miracle in itself).
Must have missednthat La Liga and Champions League are different sports.
Huh?
That’s also because assists don’t necessarily mean a great pass that unlocks a defence, can be just someone gets on the end of your wayward shot or you lay off to someone.
For example the stats would show Ronaldo had 3 assists in the euros as Ronaldo fans always point out. One was a wayward shot that was knocked in by someone else. Another was a missed shot saved by the keeper that rolled to someone else on the rebound.
How can you compare those assists to Messi’s unbelievable pass against Netherlands that nobody could see to Molina, or Messi beating the best defender in the tournament Gvardiol and turning him inside out against Croatia? Stats are a good guide but also they require context. I can guarantee you that Messi is far better passer and creator than Ronaldo.
It makes no sense to make that distinguishment unless you have an agenda. It is artificial. Maybe such claims make sense when you compare different courts in tennis or so but definitely not tournaments in football that all follow the very same yet of rules.
It is a artificial distinguishment and the only reason you make it is because you believe you can make a case for Ronaldo having more iconic performances in the UCL than Messi. Which again only comes down to titles and goals. Messi for me is a superior football player to Cristiano - far superior actually to the Cristiano that won 5 CLs with Madrid. And he had better performances in the UCL as well, even if Cristiano scored more goals in the knock outs.