Nuance and context is everything.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
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Nuance and context is everything.
Nadal also has an incredible PR, as do all the biggest figures of sport, we aren't talking about mediocre athletes that nobody cares about.
And measuring talent in Tennis is more difficult, so it all comes to personal preferences at the end, I've heard tennis connoisseurs say that Nadal is more hard work and Federer more pure talent, and also in vice versa too.
The problem with these ridiculous sports debates is that people just straight diminish one athlete to praise the other.
Ronaldo or Messi? "Messi, Penaldo is a tap-in merchant"
Jordan or Lebron? "Jordan overrated, wouldn't hack it in modern NBA"
Messi or Maradona? "Diego obviously, Messi wouldn't be playing football without the hormones"
Seriously, people need to learn to just enjoy top athletes instead of diminishing their accomplishments to praise others.
The argument always had to do with Argentina; Messi would never be seen the same way as Maradona if he didn't also win them a World Cup.
It's not really the same compared to Haaland.
It is really hard for a player to get in the level of Messi/Pele/Maradona without international success and has been so forever. The only reason why Di Stefano is not on that tier (or that Maradona is rated higher than him) is his lack of international success.
I don’t think a player has to win it, but he either has to win it (with very good performances) or have awesome performances and reach final stages (e.g., Cruyff in 1974). Ronaldo did neither which is why he belongs in the second tier, with awesome company like Di Stefano, Cruyff and potentially Beckenbauer and Platini.
I think that if Ronaldo would have done what Zidane did in 2006 (not win the title, but reach the final while dominating the World Cup), he would have been rated considerably higher. (Messi did something similar in 2014, but it was just being great, not ‘historically’ dominating it, which is why he doesn’t get much love for 2014).
No ban for Sporting, not a chance, keep him for comedy sake.
Nations league more competitive than Copa.
If Ronaldo was Brazilian and won the Copa he'd dish NL like a worst competiton ever but the fact Ronaldo won it makes it far bigger.
Yeah, WUM master.
@AlvaritoMorales: "Messi has only one World Cup, and they say he is the best in history. Pelé laughs, Pelé has three WCs. Messi is a failure because he has only one WC... Cristiano Ronaldo is still the best, he won a EURO which is more difficult than the WC and has more UCL."
pathetic people like this have votes for balon dor…..
pathetic people like this have votes for balon dor…..
You have no argument, you've just repeated yourself.
I am not a yank so I don't care about those other sports, however you're just asserting that these people can compete in the modern day without any evidence nor a methodology. Why would I take your word for it when my eyes tell me that football was slower and far lower quality back in the 60s, as evidenced by the video I showed Garrincha's best ever performance in 1962, where the standard is terrible.
Furthermore, I assert that as we no longer see alcoholics with physical handicaps make it professionally, let alone the pinnacle of the sport, then the standard must be much higher. It's basic stuff but people like to be pretentious and believe championing old players is a higher value opinion.
You're going to have to actually buttress your argument with some evidence, because at the moment there's nothing to engage with.
Awesome post. Add to that, the pool of players is now much higher, and players start training when they are younger, in turn making them better/more refined years earlier than in Pele’s generation.
Honestly, checking web footage from back then, the quality is Sunday-league football.
You can't compare Messi to Pele and Maradona. Different eras and the champions of today is better than the champions of yesterday.
The best footballer for me is more than just scoring goals. Look at Haaland, even if he breaks several of Ronaldos records it does not make him a better footballer. For me it's the hole package. Creativity, Passing, Goalscoring, Flair, Set pieces, Assists, Dribbling etc.
And Messi is at the very top.
The best footballer for me is more than just scoring goals. Look at Haaland, even if he breaks several of Ronaldos records it does not make him a better footballer. For me it's the hole package. Creativity, Passing, Goalscoring, Flair, Set pieces, Assists, Dribbling etc.
And Messi is at the very top.
People are actually saying Ronaldo is absolute crap and not even top 10 or whatever, I mean in this forum
I’m going to have to call you out here if you’re saying that.
Find me two “people” who have said Ronaldo isn’t in top 10. People have slammed him (more so because of his disrespect to our club) but let’s not exaggerate things.
People may have stupidly labelled him a fraud, which he absolutely is not, but I don’t think I’ve read a comment here stating that he doesn’t squeeze into the top 10 somewhere.
The whole idea is a bit silly and just subjective but if Brady shouldn't be there then whoever the heck Hamilton is shouldn't be there either (no idea what sport that even is). Football is the only worldwide team sport. Sports like tennis and the Olympic sports are played around the world. Modern UFC and MMA is more worldwide than boxing too.
I read one post calling him a fraud and now it’s become a “thing” on here. Unless I’ve missed many others?
Depends on the criteria. If we are talking peak only, then Cristiano might not make my top 10 depending on what mood I'm in for defenders like Baresi and Maldini. For career (since I take into account the structural advantages Cristiano and Messi both had - that players in the 80s and earlier did not) I'd say Cristiano squeaks in around 7-10.
Exactly, that's why it's more remarkable that Messi has dominated for 15 years in this era rather than in previous ones. To add to Garrincha's alcoholism, spine and leg deformities, and losing his virginity to a goat, he also only started playing professionally at 19-years-old - even someone with Messi's talent wouldn't have been able to perform in a top league, let alone dominate a World Cup in modern times with those conditions (it took him several attempts without those disadvantages).
Players like Stanley Matthews could compete in the 60s until he was 50 years old because he was dedicated to the sport. Cristiano Ronaldo, for all his Patrick Bateman style dedication with a whole team optimising his health using modern science, will not be able to because the standard is higher now.
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we can easily compare nadal/federer/djokovic because they played against each other a lot and federer has got worse h2h against both. he doesnt really hold any big records anymore either.
people may like him or his style of tennis more but hes objectively worse. his h2h would be a lot worse if he wasnt scared playing on clay more. props to djokovic for not backing off against nadal there.
Maradona's '86 WC campaign is the highest a footballer has peaked for me. I'm aware of the relatively small sample size though.
If we did peak performances for an entire season, I think all 3 have a very strong argument.
A strange argument to make when Ronaldo has played more games than any outfielder in history, going back since records began. Ronaldo has played 400 more games than Matthews.
Ian Callaghan for example played from 1960 to 1982 and Ronaldo has surpassed him for games played. By that logic it’s easier to keep going in the modern day than it used to be.
I'd say it's stranger to conflate appearances with age.
By your logic, if Ronaldo decided to only play 15 games a season then he would be able to perform at the top level until he was 80 years old
Enjoyed reading that, cheers.
He made his first team debut nearly 20 years ago though, he’s gone on way longer than 95% of elite players at a higher level with more high intensity games than anyone, it’s just a weird example to pick for it to show the strength of the modern game that Ronaldo can’t hack it at almost 38 as a sign of strength, when 40 years ago it would have been even stranger to see a player that age to not have retired well before that. Modric, Thiago Silva, Pepe played at the World Cup too. A great player is a great player no matter what era.
That's because footballers are far better athletes in this day and age and need to take care of themselves or they cannot compete at the elite level. They also have the benefit of modern nutrition and sports science which has really developed since the turn of the century.
Stanley Matthews was an example of a footballer from the 50/60s who also took better care of himself than his peers and it allowed him to compete at 50 years old. Even with all the marvels of modern sports science; Modric, Pepe, Thiago Silva and Ronaldo will not be competing at 50 years old.
Stanley Matthews though was a one-off though and wasn't standard for the time or any time of football. The oldest outfield internationals for England are Matthews in 1957, Compton in 1950, Pearce in 1999, Pennington in 1920, Finney in 1958, Sheringham in 2002, Lampard in 2014, Keown in 2002. I.e. they're all spread out, doesn't suggest it's any easier or harder to play at the top level nowadays than it was.
Ronaldo would be considered as same level as Gred Muller and van Basten.
No where near the Goat level. People only rate high on player who have very good dibbling skill
No where near the Goat level. People only rate high on player who have very good dibbling skill
I get it if you think CL is the highest level of football, which BTW messi is not a scrub there either.
But let me put this question to you. If it was so much harder to perform in the UCL, why has in your opinion the best UCL player in CR7 never scored or assisted in any knockouts in a weaker and lower level competition aka the world cup?
It is as if somehow magically, the GOAT of UCL became actual shit in a weaker competition. Perhaps, maybe, that weaker level competition is actually tougher to perform in eh?
By the eyes of all close observers of the game, Pele (1960s), Cruyff (1970s), Maradona (1980s), Matthaus (1990s), and Ronaldo I (2000s) would be as dominant today as they were in their eras -- eras so long ago in your eyes.
Ronaldo I would absolutely destroy everything in his path were he transported in time to today, no question whatsoever. But you might argue he played only 20 years ago so that's not fair. Ok, how about Matthaus, who played 30 years ago? Who today blows Matthaus away? No one. Still not long enough ago for you? Ok, how about Maradona, who would without any question terrorize defenders today as he did in the 1980s? Would not Maradona walk into club or NT squad today? Of course he would. Fine, let's go back to Cruyff in the 1970s...known as the inventor of modern football (a bit of an exaggeration but the point has merit), Cruyff would walk into any club of NT today and terrorize any defender unlucky enough to face him.
All you've got left is Pele, the alleged abuser of alcoholics and cripples -- basically a weekend tap-in merchant and flat track bully -- who is regarded by all except you as one of the greatest footballers of all time. If you go with Messi over Pele, that's reasonable. Messi and Ronaldo both over Pele, fine. And even if you argue Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona, that's reasonable enough. But you'd have a hard time making the case that there are dozens, or even just five footballers who are greater than Pele.
Muhamad ali says hi!
(Or Joe Luis for that matter)
you’re right, my bad.
The thing is that it was only an excuse to put Messi and not the other one.
It's because it's relative. Messi and Ronaldo have mostly played with average teams especially compared to their super clubs so for them it's a huge challenge. On the other hand for Spanish, French and German footballers their NT is usually every bit as good if not better than clubs and sometimes it's an easier stage than club football too.
Exactly! This is why it is not correct to say UCL is a bigger achievement than WC in football. Higher level yes, but it is also extremely luck dependant on the group of players you play with and your coach.
The exceptions for Messi and Ronaldo on their average teams are the 2010 Argentina version and the 2022 Portugal version, both stacked. However Cr7 is 38 and that Argentina had maradona as their head coach…
However to not score or assist a single goal or have a single MOTM in a WC knock out (correct me if I am wrong), CR7 has seriously underachieved at this stage
You mean training at a professional club from younger which you could argue, takes out the individualism from some players, football though is an easy cheap sport to play most greats of any era would be playing from young ages, even if it wasn’t with an actual football, don’t think there’s much change in that.
I've said it before, and I will say it again...
Messi is the greatest ever La Liga player and CR7 is the greatest ever Champions League player. If you want to compare their international careers, Ronaldo has 118 goals, Messi has 98 goals, but Messi has a world cup and Ronaldo only has a Euro. Truth is there really isn't a whole lot between them. Sure, they're different players, but if you are more worried about proving which one is better then you probably missed out on just enjoying the fact that for 15 years we got to watch the 2 greatest players of all time (yes, of all time) play each week and go head to head on several occasions...
Messi is the greatest ever La Liga player and CR7 is the greatest ever Champions League player. If you want to compare their international careers, Ronaldo has 118 goals, Messi has 98 goals, but Messi has a world cup and Ronaldo only has a Euro. Truth is there really isn't a whole lot between them. Sure, they're different players, but if you are more worried about proving which one is better then you probably missed out on just enjoying the fact that for 15 years we got to watch the 2 greatest players of all time (yes, of all time) play each week and go head to head on several occasions...
He's a great poster and very insightful aside from his obvious bias in favor of Ronaldo. He's been baited in this thread and couldn't help himself but to take it.To be fair to the Sporting fellow, from whatever little I have followed the caf, he has been a polite nuanced poster for the most of it. I haven’t seen him downplay Messi’s achievements too often. Never seen him act snobbish either about Ronaldo’s supposed supremacy.
That said, the last few days have really brought out the worst in him (and a lot of others admittedly). I can slightly empathise, as I used to myself harbour delusional levels of obsession about Rooney at one point that would often kill my powers to be objective and fair. Probably when the dust settles, he would warm up to the fact it is still an exceptional achievement for CR to be in the discussion for the top 5 all time players. Anyone denying this is also being unfair and has a fair amount of recency bias. Just like our Wazza, people may slightly look past the red mist a few years from now when thinking about Ronnie. Probably forgive his indiscretions and stupidity with the interview etc. Or may be I will get pelters for saying this
For the record, Messi is the best player I have seen, by a mile at that.
Yes and it will always be. But I also think that Messi will ascend to true godhood when he retires and the next greats will be compared to him, just like Maradona and Pelé did.
There's a reason why playmakers are so highly valued and considered essential to a team, even more than strikers. Why there're so often found in the GOAT discussions. While I agree with a lot of what you say, without supply there's simply no goal or even a chance to score one, no matter how good a striker's movement or abilities are. The latter is the tip of the spear not the hand that throws it. The intelligence and ability to see and make a decisive pass, it doesn't even have to be an assist, is something that only few possess. That's the reality of the game and has always been, be it in a counter-attacking team or a possession based one. If you want something else, watch another sport.
That right there is utter tripe and you know it. He started on the wing, just like Ronaldo before being moved to the middle, which is even more packed. Both of them never tracked back and had others doing the dirty work for them. You're also deliberately downplaying Messi's pace, stamina and lower body strength. You can't repeatedly go past 3-4 or more opponents during a game without a healthy dose of them, added to his other skills. He was also as skilled to position himself where he could receive the ball in any part of the pitch, in and out of the box, and used to start his runs from the middle of the park. Granted he's not the player he was 5 years ago but even then a big guy like Gvardiol who's about 15 years younger than him bounced off him in this WC, and he wasn't the only one. His playmaking ability allowed him to play deeper as time went by, as he slowly lost his pace and couldn't run at defenses the way he did before, which is why he could produce his stellar performances in this WC despite being at the twilight of his career.
I'm all for recognizing the greatness of both without rewriting history or downplaying their respective achievements and those who do so are rabid cultists and quite frankly, idiots. Try to not fall into that category.
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Messi’s playmaking is where the gap really grows. And Ronaldo has been abysmal in world cups, messi on the other hand redeeming himself this year. Ronaldo is the second best player of his generation but the gap between him and Messi was bigger than you might think. And it was long before Messi won this World Cup.
But its not just about goals. No one thought Raul was the greatest ever when he held the cl scoring record. Its just about being the best at football.
There can be no question anymore. Messi ist the GOAT
Yeah, right.
There's no debate to be had. They were the best of their respective generations. Three different eras, therefore impossible to compare them objectively. Once you enter their realm, it will always come down to a personal and subjective preference.
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Thanks for saying it again. But Messi is clearly the better footballer.