balaks
Full Member
Some of this just feels like people grasping at anything that could in any way be perceived as negative to jump on Rowling for, whether it has any basis in reality or not.
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I responded to complaints that a character had a Chinese and Korean name. So I have to assume the point was that it should be either purely Korean or purely Chinese? And thus mixed ethnicity characters are problematic? I don't think anyone means anything racist by it, but I think some people are caught up in looking for reasons to be offended they lose sight of the bigger picture.Do you really think that is what has happened here?
Actually, of course you don't. You know nobody is saying that. You're resorting to arguing in bad faith.
I don't think she did stuff intentionally but I think it's also your job as a writer to make sure things are accurate and it's a problem when you use lazy stereotypes consistently or give a chinese character two korean surnames. Simple research would solve this.Some of this just feels like people grasping at anything that could in any way be perceived as negative to jump on Rowling for, whether it has any basis in reality or not.
Remove the time constraint and Redcafe is still nowhere to be seen, yet here we are talking about it. Which 95-05 foras and message boards would you expect to show up on a 2023 duckduckgo search?I'd expect these topics to show up on my search engine if they were indeed always there?
Well, of course that's what it is.Some of this just feels like people grasping at anything that could in any way be perceived as negative to jump on Rowling for, whether it has any basis in reality or not.
Ok but I'm sure you could say the same about literally thousands of writers. What's the big deal?I don't think she did stuff intentionally but I think it's also your job as a writer to make sure things are accurate and it's a problem when you use lazy stereotypes consistently or give a chinese character two korean surnames. Simple research would solve this.
You wrote: "People have been talking about these things since the books came out.", not Redcafe specifically. And if I do remove the time constraint plenty of articles about antisemitism show up. Hence my point of hindsight.Remove the time constraint and Redcafe is still nowhere to be seen, yet here we are talking about it. Which 95-05 foras and message boards would you expect to show up on a 2023 duckduckgo search?
Because it's just a made up name of a character of Asian descent which isn't a particularly good look for a white writer? Because it exemplifies laziness and reverts to stereotypes of names of people from that region? It's objectively a wrong name. If there are writers doing the same then call them out because it's lazy and poor. It's commonly thought that 'Cho Chang' is a Chinese character but even that is dubious because of the name being so unfortunately wrong and I think that is a problem. It's difficult to identify with a character that has such a confused heritage/origin because well, there isn't really one due to the made up name. In regards to the overall point then as @phelans shorts says it all adds up. One or two things you can perhaps forgive the laziness but when it becomes 2 or 3 every single book then it's clearly an issue.Ok but I'm sure you could say the same about literally thousands of writers. What's the big deal?
It’s more straws and camels backs. If there’s one of these things it’s not good, but oh well. Two, ok, you need to do better. Three and it starts to get real difficult to defend.Some of this just feels like people grasping at anything that could in any way be perceived as negative to jump on Rowling for, whether it has any basis in reality or not.
Would any of this matter if you didn't know anything about her opinion on trans (which you don't agree with clearly)? Or would many people care about it?It’s more straws and camels backs. If there’s one of these things it’s not good, but oh well. Two, ok, you need to do better. Three and it starts to get real difficult to defend.
Add that and her now known horrible opinions on certain sections of the population and it paints a picture that isn’t complimentary of her. It’s all context.
No, not Redcafe specifically, but we are here now on Redcafe talking about it and places like this won't show on searches. I said that people have been talking about it since the books came out, which they have, but because it's ordinary people duckduckgo won't notice. Jon Stewart and Pete Davidson will show on those searches, random people won't.You wrote: "People have been talking about these things since the books came out.", not Redcafe specifically. And if I do remove the time constraint plenty of articles about antisemitism show up. Hence my point of hindsight.
Sure, somewhere on the internet there's always someone, who talks about something. But you can't find that for a reason, because barely anyone cared. Now, 20 years later, it's a topic? Why? What has changed? The books have been there for 20 years. They haven't changed. It's the opinion that people hold of the author that changed, for statements, however offensive they may have been, totally unrelated to the content of the books.No, not Redcafe specifically, but we are here now on Redcafe talking about it and places like this won't show on searches. I said that people have been talking about it since the books came out, which they have, but because it's ordinary people duckduckgo won't notice. Jon Stewart and Pete Davidson will show on those searches, random people won't.
Here's a 2011 article, predating Rowling's heel turn by about a decade: https://www.jta.org/2011/08/26/ny/is-harry-potter-anti-semitic
The Rabbi concludes that the depiction isn't antisemitic, just like tons of people today conclude, but he didn't invent the question. He was asked. He also references another article about the same topic, because it was and has always been a thing.
If you like you can do a similarly restrictive search about Harry Potter and nazism, where you'll find few relevant hits. That doesn't change the fact that Voldemort and the death eaters are obviously inspired by Hitler and the nazis, and that this has been acknowleged since the books came out as well. This was something we talked about in like 6th grade at school, but DuckDuckGo doesn't seem to register that.
Well yes it clearly would. As has been mentioned these criticisms have been there for a long time.Would any of this matter if you didn't know anything about her opinion on trans (which you don't agree with clearly)? Or would many people care about it?
It makes no sense as a name. Yes, names can be made up but when you are creating characters from cultures and backgrounds where the names matter and have meaning and definition to that culture, it becomes a problem.Cho Chang is alliterative same as Pansy Parkinson or Luna Lovegood.
No doubting that literally no more thought went into her name beyond that. And why should it have?
Yes, the film. In 2011. So it can't have been because of the trans stuff, and the person writing in didn't solely focus on visual cues.Sure, somewhere on the internet there's always someone, who talks about something. But you can't find that for a reason, because barely anyone cared. Now, 20 years later, it's a topic? Why? What has changed? The books have been there for 20 years. They haven't changed. It's the opinion that people hold of the author that changed, for statements, however offensive they may have been, totally unrelated to the content of the books.
Also the article you've linked literally starts with: "When I saw the latest Harry potter film", not book.
And for what it's worth, when I change the search to "harry potter nazi" with the same time parameters, the first hit is an article that starts with:
"JK ROWLING made the "chilling" discovery that villains in her books used the same twisted logic as the Nazis when she visited a Holocaust museum, the author has revealed".
This is not an attempt at a gotcha or anything, but who actually did that? Who called it deliberate antisemitism? Are you talking about people in this thread, or reactions you have seen elsewhere on the internet? I originally brought up the movie goblins as having too many classical antisemitic tropes, both physical and behavioral, but never called J.K. Rowling an antisemite.They’re very clearly based on the way goblins have always been portrayed on print/film beforehand!
Now maybe, just maybe, Rowling should have demanded to have been involved in the art direction and insisted that the goblins were portrayed in a way that was visually different from the way goblins have always been represented, in case viewers got the wrong impression?
Whatever, spinning her failure to do so as deliberate antisemitism on her part is an outrageous stretch.
Names have meanings and definitions in every culture, nothing special about Chinese or Korean names. There's no problem at all with it, doesn't have to make sense or be culturally accurate.It makes no sense as a name. Yes, names can be made up but when you are creating characters from cultures and backgrounds where the names matter and have meaning and definition to that culture, it becomes a problem.
It does make senseAs a wanker I am offended at this unfounded association with goblins.
Are you referring to the interviewer, who began the piece with " When I saw the latest Harry potter film" or the interviewee, who responded with "Whoa there! Calling Harry Potter anti-Semitic is downright sacrilegious." and "If every grotesque, undersized, shriveled fictitious being were assumed to be a Jew, that would also mean that Yoda, Jewish would be, and E.T. would stop in at shul before phoning home.".Yes, the film. In 2011. So it can't have been because of the trans stuff, and the person writing in didn't solely focus on visual cues.
That article you mention is from seven years after the first book came out, which means that it's seven years after people noticed the obvious parallells to nazism. The reason you find that article is because Rowling herself talked about it.
You think people complaining, because some Asian supporting character's first name is technically a last name or the author may have committed the sin of pairing a Korean name with a Chinese name is a normal concern for stereotypes? Have you watched any Hollywood movie or TV show ever? Very few will hold up to that level of scrutiny.There are several reasons why people might talk more about it now than before. Obviously Rowling is more controversial now than ever before, so she's talked about more as a person rather than just a writer. Also the world is more online now, and thanks to things like social media things that normal people talk about will easier reach out. Also people are more aware about stereotypes than they used to be, and more people care than before. The Lord of the Rings came out 70 years ago, and now suddenly people are talking antisemitism? Why? What has changed? Not the books, that's for sure.
That’s the thing, right? I’m sure kids of Chinese or Korean descent felt similar emotions reading about a character who was similarly relatable. Even if clumsily named. That’s why inclusivity matters. And it was rare enough in that era, especially in books of that genre.Agreed. I'm East Indian and seeing the names Parvati and Padma Patil in the books felt...I dunno, cool. Or something. It's hard to find a good word for feelings I'm trying to recall 20 years after the fact, but it definitely made a positive impression on me. The only weird part was when they dressed both in saris for the Yule Ball (in the movies) when the books have them dressed like all the other kids in wizard "dress robes". While that seemed jarring to me, I'm sure that whoever made that decision was intending to highlight diversity in some way.
My point here being that one can look back, edit out some points, emphasize some others, and create an unreasonable narrative about racism.
I see what you did there.It does make sense
If you're trying to add inclusivity then you should do it correctly otherwise it doesn't come across well and has the opposite effect.That’s the thing, right? I’m sure kids of Chinese or Korean descent felt similar emotions reading about a character who was similarly relatable. Even if clumsily named. That’s why inclusivity matters. And it was rare enough in that era, especially in books of that genre.
All of which makes it incredibly mean-spirited (and, obviously incorrect) to try and spin these less than perfect efforts at inclusivity into the author being a racist bigot. It couldn’t be more obvious what’s going on here and it’s got very little to do with her opinion on people with a different ethnicity to herself.
There is no interviewer or interviewee, a columnist is answering a question from a reader. And I'm referring to the person who saw the depiction as antisemitic, so the reader.Are you referring to the interviewer, who began the piece with " When I saw the latest Harry potter film" or the interviewee, who responded with "Whoa there! Calling Harry Potter anti-Semitic is downright sacrilegious." and "If every grotesque, undersized, shriveled fictitious being were assumed to be a Jew, that would also mean that Yoda, Jewish would be, and E.T. would stop in at shul before phoning home.".
You think people complaining, because some Asian supporting character's first name is technically a last name or the author may have committed the sin of pairing a Korean name with a Chinese name is a normal concern for stereotypes? Have you watched any Hollywood movie or TV show ever? Very few will hold up to that level of scrutiny.
And ignoring the notion that 70 years ago is comparable with 20 years ago: I wouldn't have posted if all people was saying was that the goblins in the movies are pretty close to antisemitic caricatures or stereotypes, they clearly are. But neither would I necessarily blame an author for what the art department of a film adaption produces, nor does the hunt for reasons to be offended end there.
Nah, it really doesn’t. Definitely not in this instance. There’s no way that one clumsily named character somehow has the opposite effect to inclusivity. But more to the point, it sure as shit isn’t racist or bigoted.If you're trying to add inclusivity then you should do it correctly otherwise it doesn't come across well and has the opposite effect.
It's not necessarily bigoted on its own, no, but we already know that Rowling is somewhat bigoted and ignorant. It's another possible small piece of the puzzle, and I don't quite understand why some people are being so gung-ho about defending her every move.Nah, it really doesn’t. Definitely not in this instance. There’s no way that one clumsily named character somehow has the opposite effect to inclusivity. But more to the point, it sure as shit isn’t racist or bigoted.
Nobody should agree with it, it's abhorrent if you actually look into what she's saying and who she associates herself with.Would any of this matter if you didn't know anything about her opinion on trans (which you don't agree with clearly)? Or would many people care about it?
What era, and what genre? Fantasy books released around 2000? It really wasn't rare, and certainly not rare enough to give anyone credit just for including a minor character of a different ethnicity or background.And it was rare enough in that era, especially in books of that genre.
It would also be dead if people weren’t pretending that Rowling a) created this particular Jewish stereotype or b) ensured that it appeared in a movie based on her book. Neither of which actually happened. Obviously.There is no interviewer or interviewee, a columnist is answering a question from a reader. And I'm referring to the person who saw the depiction as antisemitic, so the reader.
I think you'll find that people tend to point out stereotypes in Hollywood movies and in TV shows, yes. A lot of them don't have a Rowling defense force, and without the objections there's not much to talk about. This thread would be dead pages ago if people weren't denying the Jewish stereotypes.
Fantasy books released ever. And there’s been three characters mentioned in the last couple of pages of this thread. I’m sure there’s more overall. I haven’t read the book.What era, and what genre? Fantasy books released around 2000? It really wasn't rare, and certainly not rare enough to give anyone credit just for including a minor character of a different ethnicity or background.
she named a Chinese kid cho chang?
The really funny bit is when people claim this makes her a racist bigot.she named a Chinese kid cho chang?
You say you haven't read Harry Potter (I haven't either, just watched the films), but have you read much fantasy other than that? Because I have, and I did when Harry Potter was being released back in the day, and I don't think it's anything special. She's not particularly bad about it, like some fantasy writers were, but I don't think she deserves any particular credit either.Fantasy books released ever. And there’s been three characters mentioned in the last couple of pages of this thread. I’m sure there’s more overall. I haven’t read the book.
Just visit any positive thread about arsenal.I think this is the most repetitive I've seen of you.
It's not just one clumsily named character. The video @Scandi Red posted shows that.Nah, it really doesn’t. Definitely not in this instance. There’s no way that one clumsily named character somehow has the opposite effect to inclusivity. But more to the point, it sure as shit isn’t racist or bigoted.
Fair point. I don’t even like J.K. Rowling. I’ve only read one of her books and she seems like a bit of a dick. I’m just way too argumentative. Combination of that and the death of nuance on social media being one of my pet hates. Just winds me up the way everyone we disagree with has to be so completely one dimensional. I’ll take a break from the thread now. Like you say, I may have made my point enough times by now!The thread would probably also be dead if you took a rest Pogue
I think this is the most repetitive I've seen of you.
Though this is probably just because I use the cafe in short binges. Those 120k posts must have come out of somewhere