Yeah, single handedly carrying a pretty average Argentina side to the biggest prize in football doesn't mean anything, basically the same as winning the Audi cup.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
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Yeah, single handedly carrying a pretty average Argentina side to the biggest prize in football doesn't mean anything, basically the same as winning the Audi cup.
The quality debate was never going to be settled by what they do at 35 and 37, indeed. But the highest achievements debate could be. And it was.
The youngster who replaced Ronaldo vs switzerland scored a hattrick in his first game in the ko stages. Does it really mean that much?
Yes.
Over 4 World cups it does. If they struggled to do it at just one tournament it would likely be anomaly but not over 4.
Its not just that they didn't score even a single goal, they generally struggled too (Messi less so)
The reason for bringing up the goal thing is to compare it the UCL where both have literally made it look easy at times.
I don't think it's a lack of talent obviously, but rather the seismic pressures the world cup puts you under. It's the most challenging football tournament on the planet for me.
The only side you wouldn't have expected Argentina to beat was France its not as if they went past England, Brazil and Spain on the way to the final
It's only the hardest prize in that you get fewer shots at it, the average CL season is much harder to win, which is why even though its every season Real Madrid were the first to retain it in the modern era. Plus I mean OK they did play at 4 world cups but 2006 Ronaldo was a winger, and so was Messi. So it's really 3, if ronaldos hat trick against Spain was in the knockout stage rather than the group how would that make him a better player? He played a team of the quality you'd expect in the later stages and scored a hat trick, but it being in the group makes it not matter?
People definitely have the world cup as the biggest stage because its grandfathered in that way, because its a relic from a time when once every 4 years is the only chance people would have to see Pele or Maradona, whereas now you can watch every game in HD of the best players in the world
Considering the number of leads they lost i never had much faith in this Argentina team. I did expect Portugal to go past Marocco though .
Yeah during the games it was it shaky, but prior to every game you would have expected them to win them, there wasn't any game where they weren't favourites till the final.
I would have expected that as well, though I think people went a bit crazy after they thrashed switzerland, definitely still should have beat Morocco though
Back to being currently the best in the world? Even taking away the WC, he's been pretty spectacular for PSG this season, surely the runaway favorites to win the CL as well which would make his year pretty spectacular depending on how he performs in the CL Ko stages and if they finally win it.
I don't even know why it was locked originally, I think a former Argentinian mod by the name of Marcos may not have wanted Ronaldo to take the lead in the poll since both times it was when he was about to
But yeah, no one was being forced to go into the thread and it's a valid topic
No, it was the opposite reason. When Ronaldo lost his child, the mods locked it.
Fair enough, that does sound right timing wise, the first time it was locked though was when Ronaldo had brought it to 50-50 after the 3rd CL when he was really far behind after the 2015 treble
You're not accounting for the pressure players like Messi and Ronaldo are under to deliver compared to a youngster who's been thrown halfway through the tournament. I'm not saying it's a free hit for someone like Ramos, but it's much less pressure than it is for the very top players.
That said, there is definitely significant amounts of luck in whether you win a tournament that only comes along once every four years, not matter how good you are. Take Ronaldo for example. His peak years came during a time where Portugal didn't have a huge amount of quality in the side, while the beginning and end of his career are signposted by two golden generations. You can't really legislate for that. Or the fact that the 2014 World Cup, which should theoretically have been Messi at his peak at 27, just happened to coincide with the season where he showed probably his worst form between the ages of 20 and 30; and he still dragged his team to the final.
Meanwhile, you have players like James Rodriguez and Ivan Perisic who peaked at World Cups and achieved extraordinary things, but never showed the same level in club football. So perhaps its more appropriate to say rather than these things being down to luck, that they're down to timing.
Sounds like you're dangerously close to giving a feck about a Redcafe.net poll.
Stumbled across this clip of him at 16. His natural talent and footballing intelligence is just astonishing
You are a bitter Ronaldo fanboy.
BTW a blast from the past:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/worlds-3rd-best-player.344408/post-10801493
Your own comment on the workd cup. Goalposts have shifted now.
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Epitome of "born for this"
I can remember reading that Sergio Ramos got a few red cards when they played against each other in the youth teams.
What's still so amusing to me is how he ended the debate at the very last moment. I mean with Ronaldo moving on from Europe just after the world cup, this was the only chance for the debate to really end. If Messi didn't win it we be hearing "not a leader like Ronaldo", "not clutch like Ronaldo" , " can't deliver when his team needs him the most" , "carried by Barcas system". But Messi in 7 games, as ridiculous as it sounds, shut down every criticism that has been put against him. This was really the only tournament available for him to answer those criticisms due to its level of difficulty compared to the tournaments he's involved in with Psg where they are already expected to win it
Final images of Messi lifting the WC wearing a Sith robe and Cristiano being followed down the tunnel crying.
If Messi had the exact same tournament but the only difference was Argentina lost on penalties in the final due to the other players missing he would still have the same doubters.
Haters will find any reason to deny someone's greatness or someone's superiority over another player.
So these debates don't really make sense when one player is far superior to the other one.
I can understand people prefer Ronaldo to Messi however when those people fail to admit that Messi is a far superior player and then those haters then change their mind based off one world cup despite the other 16-17 years to judge them it doesn't really add up.
Since both have played over 1000 games you'd think there already was enough material to draw a conclusion from.
Yeah absolutely, which is why anyone who needed a world cup to have their opinion changed or absolutely certain means they never watched enough of both of them to fully understand what kind of players they are or how they influence their teams.
Everyone has an opinion but people feel the need to express their opinion on others with having very little understanding or knowledge on both of them.
These debates became so tiring over the years as a Messi fan. I'm glad it's over and now we can appreciate both of them for what they achieved.
Winning the World Cup as the best player does a few things:
1. It silences some genuine doubters regarding his greatness.
2. It provides him with a legacy. The world cup is the single most prestigious tournament and winning it as the best just immortalised him.
But. For anyone who watched him since he began playing and doesn't have a bias against him, even without the wc, he already was the best of his generation and arguably the greatest ever.
1. It silences some genuine doubters regarding his greatness.
2. It provides him with a legacy. The world cup is the single most prestigious tournament and winning it as the best just immortalised him.
But. For anyone who watched him since he began playing and doesn't have a bias against him, even without the wc, he already was the best of his generation and arguably the greatest ever.
I can't read that it from the newbies, which means it's probably almost a decade old, I'm 30 now which means 10 years is a third of my life, it would be very odd if your opinions hadn't changed in 10 years from 20 years old to 30, most are probably entirely different people, seems odd to dig up posts from years ago though
Simply a football genius.
I don't know if I agree that winning with psg wouldn't matter, sure the French league doesn't, but if he wins the champions league it'll certainly allay some of the criticisms over the last 5 years where his teams seem to keep crashing out and his head dropped when they needed a leader, I mean really if bayern smash psg in the last 16, well he's lucky his only rival for the ballon d'or is on the same team. Winning the champioms league with psg would be a big achievement, certainly good performances particularly when the last 16 opponent is as strong as bayern Munich, plus likely a tough quarter semi and final would be far more impressive to me than performances against Australia Netherlands Croatia and France
My private opinions remained the same but changed in the public space. I always argued in Cristiano's favour but privately knew that Messi was unquestionably better. That includes the time Ronaldo was at United.
Having said that, I respect Ronaldo’s achievements and do acknowledge him as one of the greatest ever but just not on the same table as Messi, Maradona and Pele.
People saying messi is better than Ronaldo I understand, but when people say he's not in the same league as Maradona and Pele I always find that a bit odd. Even assuming you're old enough to have watched them play, chances are your exposure to them was at the world cup and most of the rest is second hand which is clouded by nostalgia. If you happen to be the rare exception that somehow managed to watch Pele on a regular basis then fair enough, if you've only seen clips from a few world cups then it does seem a strange statement
Going through your posts, it quite obvious that you will always down play whatever he achieves and the goalposts will always shift.
Why do you not say that this Argentina team outside of Messi and the keeper is Inferior to Croatia and much Inferior to France and certainly to Portugal?. It was an average side which relied on great moments from Messi, the keeper and team spirit.
Argentina were second favourites for the tournament behind France when it started painting them as underdogs seems a bit strange. I've not downplayed what he achieved at all, I'm genuinely surprised that so many people don't think that club football is the highest level, I thought it was pretty widely agreed, the world cup is fantastic for messi's legacy, a big achievement and probably will solidify him as the GOAT for many people, but the idea it's a harder level of football compared to the CL is bizarre
Yes Cristiano is one of the greatest but it is based more on his longevity, individual and team achievements, and stats. Where he fails is the eye test. He simply lacked the genius of even someone like Ronaldinho or Luis Ronaldo who I rank below him in greatness but were in their prime better footballers.
That's not really what I said though, however you rank him is fine, ranking him far below players you've likely seen a handful of games of is strange, though not uncommon, plenty of people rate both Messi and Ronaldo below two players they likely saw less than 20 games of in total
They were amongst the favourites for their unbeaten run before losing to Daudi Arabia, not the for the players they had. Argentina players outside of Messi and Di Maria are quite average.
Now who's shifting goalposts? You can argue about the quality of their players, but what's inarguable is they were among the favourites, certainly above Australia, Netherlands and Croatia. Even after they lost to Saudi Arabia, if they'd lost any of their knockout games prior to the finals it would have been an upset
International level is harder for Messi and Ronaldo as they play for weaker teams than at international level (as opposed to Mbappe who doesn't)
Anyway regardless of level - club or international - Messi is clearly the best footballer of this era
Yeah apart from Messi whom id take on a 1 year contract how many from that team would you want at Man Utd. Apart from the guy who is here id only take the keeper.
So why do people who only saw Pele play for a stacked Brazil side, claim he's better than either of them?
I thought the Argentinian team was quite average. I was hoping they would win the world cup for Messi but I felt they were below Brazil, France, Portugal, England and Spain on paper at least.
If that tournament was played again I wouldn't expect them to win it. Maybe I'm underestimating them but I thought the maximum they could do would do would be a semi final if they were lucky.
I wouldn't call them a top team but they definitely fit around Messi much better this tournament which was probably the key to them doing so well and Messi being so influential.
They seemed quite average in 2018 and in 2014 they had a strong defence which carried them to the final with some luck.
I thought Portugal, Spain and Brazil should have made the semi finals and they underperformed. England got knocked out by France which is reasonable.
Overall I would say Argentina gelled very well as a team and got the luck when they needed it to go all the way but i wouldn't have had them in the top 4, i would have put them in 5th or 6th place with Portugal.
If that tournament was played again I wouldn't expect them to win it. Maybe I'm underestimating them but I thought the maximum they could do would do would be a semi final if they were lucky.
I wouldn't call them a top team but they definitely fit around Messi much better this tournament which was probably the key to them doing so well and Messi being so influential.
They seemed quite average in 2018 and in 2014 they had a strong defence which carried them to the final with some luck.
I thought Portugal, Spain and Brazil should have made the semi finals and they underperformed. England got knocked out by France which is reasonable.
Overall I would say Argentina gelled very well as a team and got the luck when they needed it to go all the way but i wouldn't have had them in the top 4, i would have put them in 5th or 6th place with Portugal.
I'm not suggesting pre tournament I'd have picked them, like you say Brazil, England and Portugal underperformed, but they did have a fairly easy run to the final, where they then had a great performance against France, at least for the first 80 min. There wasn't any individual game on the way to the final I'd have expected them to lose though