ETH: "We want to be the best transition team in the world"

sullydnl

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[The messages I am sending to my players are] that we want to do it in the United way. What is the United Way? So what is our identity? And we want to be really successful in that particular style.

"So we really looked into the history of Manchester United and we really looked also into the qualities of our players. And then you can say, so what do we want to be? That is, we want to be the best transition team in the world. We want to surprise. We want to play dynamic [football], we want to play with speed and we want to play aggressive out of a very good team spirit. So that is United.
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This is probably a key quote in terms of how we can expect the team to develop this season. Emphasis on transition, not possession.

Having always been a dangerous team on the counter, that in effect means the primary area we should be seeing improvement this season is in our pressing and counter-pressing.

Of course strength in transition and possession aren't mutually exlusive, but rather complementary. Klopp's Liverpool were known for their strength in transition but in their best years were still only second to City in terms of average possession in the PL. And of course City while being seen as a possession side are excellent in transition. The best teams are elite in both regards, with one aspect aiding the other. And with our team being far from the finished article, we can expect further development beyond this season. There's a reason the bookies have us finishing fourth this season, nobody expects us to be the finished article yet.

But for this season the "we want to be the best transition team in the world" quote is probably telling in terms of how we should judge stylistic improvements. And this aligns with our transfer business and team shape, with the addition of Mount (whose biggest strength is his off the ball work) and the younger, hard-working Hojlund in advanced areas no doubt giving us the personnel to improve.
 
Hopefully that doesn’t mean being a mediocre possession team.
 
Carl Anka did an interesting video regarding this quote this morning on TifoIRL

 
So like Liverpool under Klopp as opposed to Peps tiki taka?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Hopefully that doesn’t mean being a mediocre possession team.
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The two are not mutually exclusive. You even have to be a good possession team to be a great transition team. Or you'll run out of gas always trying to retrieve the ball.
When people hear transition, they often think it's about how quickly you move from a low block to the final third but it's not. It's simply how fast you move the ball from the back line to having a shooting opportunity.
ETH wants the block as high as possible so that when we win the ball back, we can transition as quickly as possible.
 
jderbyshire said:
Carl Anka did an interesting video regarding this quote this morning on TifoIRL

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Telling graph from that:

Screenshot_20230805_145303_Chrome.jpg
 
Transition exploits space and disorganization from winning the ball back in different areas of the pitch.

Players have to make the right runs and understand where to be. Positional play and vertical play are hallmarks of EtH.

You can still have these principles when in possession. The shape and pace of play when pinning the opposition within their half is something United have shown they can do under EtH.
 
What he means by that is new signings need to bed in quickly during their transition period.
 
Hugh Jass said:
So like Liverpool under Klopp as opposed to Peps tiki taka?
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Yes. His Ajax team were always more like Liverpool than City. Don't know where the Pep comparison came from.
City are also very good at transitions, mind you.
 
Adisa said:
The two are not mutually exclusive. You even have to be a good possession team to be a great transition team. Or you'll run out of gas always trying to retrieve the ball.
When people hear transition, they often think it's about how quickly you move from a low block to the final third but it's not. It's simply how fast you move the ball from the back line to having a shooting opportunity.
ETH wants the block as high as possible so that when we win the ball back, we can transition as quickly as possible.
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Which is why he wanted Onana, so it is starting a lot further forward rather than on our own goal line. Also Onana can start the attacks rather than DDG rushing his passes at the back and our defenders then being under pressure again.
 
Hugh Jass said:
So like Liverpool under Klopp as opposed to Peps tiki taka?
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I mean City are great on the transition as well. But I remember when ETH was being touted as United manager, some were saying you could put his style in between Klopp and Pep. He likes positional play, but he also wants to win the ball back and create a chance as quickly as possible.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Which is why he wanted Onana, so it is starting a lot further forward rather than on our own goal line. Also Onana can start the attacks rather than DDG rushing his passes at the back and our defenders then being under pressure again.
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Yes, ad the calls for Onana to drop deeper foolish.
 
Sounds good and could already been seen at times last season.
 
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
 
Hopefully translates to something like our 92-95 period.
 
noodlehair said:
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
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He wants to play more like Liverpool did when the won the league. Really regressive stuff that.
 
noodlehair said:
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
Click to expand...
I’d argue you 100 percent have to play into the history of the club otherwise you get what you have now with fans (as an example) shitting on Antony because he isn’t this tricky winger taking players on. It’s not what attracted a fan to the club so they’re a lot harsher and everything behind that is harder to implement.
De Gea to Onana is another prime example. Fans are already shitting themselves over a pre season game
 
noodlehair said:
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
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This is one of my 2 concerns. This happens too much to us imo, unlike say Arsenal. That's either because our counter pressing is not quite there get or because we lack a Saliba/VVD type who handles this stuff better?

The other big concern I have right now is our build up from the back, defense is excellent with that but I see serious problems in progressing the ball because of a lack of proper midfielders.
 
noodlehair said:
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
Click to expand...

I don't see how it would be a step back on the progress we made last season? As the graph above shows, a lot of that progress was in transition. The above quotes suggest a continued focus on improving in that area specifically this season.
 
I worry basically playing with two 8s in Bruno and Mount will cause Casemiro to be isolated and let opponents cut through us way too easily.
 
sullydnl said:
This is probably a key quote in terms of how we can expect the team to develop this season. Emphasis on transition, not possession.

Having always been a dangerous team on the counter, that in effect means the primary area we should be seeing improvement this season is in our pressing and counter-pressing.

Of course strength in transition and possession aren't mutually exlusive, but rather complementary. Klopp's Liverpool were known for their strength in transition but in their best years were still only second to City in terms of average possession in the PL. And of course City while being seen as a possession side are excellent in transition. The best teams are elite in both regards, with one aspect aiding the other. And with our team being far from the finished article, we can expect further development beyond this season. There's a reason the bookies have us finishing fourth this season, nobody expects us to be the finished article yet.

But for this season the "we want to be the best transition team in the world" quote is probably telling in terms of how we should judge stylistic improvements. And this aligns with our transfer business and team shape, with the addition of Mount (whose biggest strength is his off the ball work) and the younger, hard-working Hojlund in advanced areas no doubt giving us the personnel to improve.
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Yes, that's exactly what many people misunderstand - counter attacks and transitions. Being more possession based team doesn't exclude your capability to hurt opponents in fast attacking transitions. What is also worth a notice is that ETH in that quote might think about defensive transitions too.

My key takeaway from today's match against Lens is that our full backs indeed invert into the middle more than people notice and it's a way not just to have numerical advantage in the build up but also to create a base to prevent Lens counter attacking ability, making our shape more solid once we face defensive transition and giving our front line more ensurance to press high. When we were building our play through the left side, we could see Dalot positioning himself next to Casemiro and when the ball was on the right side you could see Shaw or even Lisandro on some occasions (with Shaw dropping to LCB) joining Casemiro. And indeed, we haven't conceded any clear cut chances if I remembered it correctly.

Also, in the first half we saw very good breakouts through Garnacho finding a lot of space on the left side and it was more of a structural attack than people might think. It's one of the common mechanics in possession based teams when you set your team shape almost to play a rondo and keep a ball on one side (that's why Antony is so important player for us) moving the opposition just to set up Bruno for a long ball once the opponents fully commit to that side.

Even it is his second season, I still consider this as early days in ETH's tenure and it's lovely to see how he setups players to play his style according to their strengths, in this case Garnacho's flair and 1v1 ability combined with Bruno's lovely ability to switch the play. It's always about the system rather than individuals.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Which is why he wanted Onana, so it is starting a lot further forward rather than on our own goal line. Also Onana can start the attacks rather than DDG rushing his passes at the back and our defenders then being under pressure again.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, we were already amongst the highest in the league for regains in the final third. The problem was we had one of the deepest lines.

I think our attack and in particular our right hand side is going to be an issue this season.
 
noodlehair said:
Don't like all this United identity stuff.

It's not progressive if you start factoring the history of the club and how it used to play in the past into your tactics and how you play now, is it? That's literally the exact opposite of being progressive.

I also don't like that he keeps playing Mount in place of a midfielder, because along with these quotes it suggests we're going to be back to every opponent just walking through on our back four about 30 times a half.

We made a lot if progress last season so wary of anything that sounds like going backwards again,which tbh this does.
Click to expand...

Mount is a good midfielder. In the last 20 minutes of this game, we swapped him to the left and moved Sancho in there, massive difference. He sparks so many pressing actions and may be the primary reason the press and counterpress works this season. He can win the ball back and he can transition through dribbling and passing. He covers so much ground and provides energy we didn't have consistently in midfield last season. He's not planning to play a deep counter attack, but rather play the way we all thought we would play under Rangnick ( with more space and possession).

Having Onana, Martinez and Shaw ( inverting too) means we will be able to hold possession across the backline. With Maguire and Lindelolf, the old AWB, Mctominy and Fred that was impossible. Like several posters said, Ajax actually looked more like Liverpool in style. The possession stats and inversion of full backs made some people wrongly conclude he would be similar to Pep. He bought Mount to be a better attacking version of Henderson. The only fear I have is the performance of the wide players because we would need good play from them to get goals
 
Solius said:
I worry basically playing with two 8s in Bruno and Mount will cause Casemiro to be isolated and let opponents cut through us way too easily.
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This won't happen as one of our full backs will always invert into the middle and one of our centre backs will push up. Onana will push up to close the space between the defensive line and his goal.
 
dubplate warrior said:
If I remember correctly, we were already amongst the highest in the league for regains in the final third. The problem was we had one of the deepest lines.

I think our attack and in particular our right hand side is going to be an issue this season.
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So it is making us play further up the field, Onana is a good passer, but so is Licha who is pushing into midfield and can pick someone out from further up the pitch.
 
cyberman said:
I’d argue you 100 percent have to play into the history of the club otherwise you get what you have now with fans (as an example) shitting on Antony because he isn’t this tricky winger taking players on. It’s not what attracted a fan to the club so they’re a lot harsher and everything behind that is harder to implement.
De Gea to Onana is another prime example. Fans are already shitting themselves over a pre season game
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That is such a childish approach though. That kind of football doesn't work, you need more than that to be successful.
 
cyberman said:
I’d argue you 100 percent have to play into the history of the club otherwise you get what you have now with fans (as an example) shitting on Antony because he isn’t this tricky winger taking players on.
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He's been getting stick because he's barely scored any goals or provided any assists, and he's an attacking player in a team that barely scores any goals.
 
Ones worrying about if we would end up playing hoofball. We don't. We are passing from the back, some might be long passes, but they are passes, not hit and hope.
 
sullydnl said:
I don't see how it would be a step back on the progress we made last season? As the graph above shows, a lot of that progress was in transition. The above quotes suggest a continued focus on improving in that area specifically this season.
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Agreed, but will it be able to compete for the PL and CL, I don't think it will.
 
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