The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

[Pronewbie]

Is this true?

1 tackle as per PL stats. Lowest number of touches in the first xi, and just 6 more passes than Eriksen who's played half as much.

 

[gerdm07]

The answer might be to play Bruno as a true number 8 (that's his number after all). Have Bruno be the box to box and sit along side Casemiro for defense and passing. He obviously would have to change his thinking and be much less risk averse. He played as the last midfielder a few times last season and did a good job spreading the ball. Some more reasons this could work:

- Bruno is not a great AM and never will be. Sometimes his passing is pretty bad (e.g. his poor attempts at switching almost every match and his crosses missing by at least 10 yards too often) and he can't blow by the opposition when pressed (e.g. Maddison against us)
- Play Mount as the AM. He might be more effective than Bruno. Mount would keep possession better and he is certainly better at dribbling.
- This would add mobility to our defense because Bruno can cover a lot of ground.
- Bruno would provide a commanding presence in the middle of the pitch which we are lacking.

I don't know if Bruno would accept this change. However, I really think Bruno could be a much better 8 than he ever will be as an AM.

 

[Doracle]

The question I guess is how long can ETH give this midfield to try and get it to work. Do we trust ETH enough to say “let’s write this season off and see if you can get this more attacking system to work as a long-term plan”? If not, how long before he has to change it?

For Forest, hopefully start Martial at CF, who is a lot better than Rashford at holding the ball up (plus it should mean we have a competent winger). That in itself will hopefully give us more structure than the Wolves game.

I would also then like Sancho to start in place of Antony as I think he’s a better link up player and can also more easily drop into a central position and interchange with Bruno/Mount but I don’t see that part happening sadly.

I would love this strategy to ultimately work as in theory it should give us a lot of control but I just feel currently we haven’t got the right personnel for it.

 

[Steve 007]

The answer might be to play Bruno as a true number 8 (that's his number after all). Have Bruno be the box to box and sit along side Casemiro for defense and passing. He obviously would have to change his thinking and be much less risk averse. He played as the last midfielder a few times last season and did a good job spreading the ball. Some more reasons this could work:

- Bruno is not a great AM and never will be. Sometimes his passing is pretty bad (e.g. his poor attempts at switching almost every match and his crosses missing by at least 10 yards too often) and he can't blow by the opposition when pressed (e.g. Maddison against us)
- Play Mount as the AM. He might be more effective than Bruno. Mount would keep possession better and he is certainly better at dribbling.
- This would add mobility to our defense because Bruno can cover a lot of ground.
- Bruno would provide a commanding presence in the middle of the pitch which we are lacking.

I don't know if Bruno would accept this change. However, I really think Bruno could be a much better 8 than he ever will be as an AM.

Bruno is one of the best attacking mids in the league. He’s scored 44 in 124 games and assisted 32. Only De Bryune has created more goal scoring chances. Moving him after two games and him just being made captain is silly.

 

[Lyng]

The answer might be to play Bruno as a true number 8 (that's his number after all). Have Bruno be the box to box and sit along side Casemiro for defense and passing. He obviously would have to change his thinking and be much less risk averse. He played as the last midfielder a few times last season and did a good job spreading the ball. Some more reasons this could work:

- Bruno is not a great AM and never will be. Sometimes his passing is pretty bad (e.g. his poor attempts at switching almost every match and his crosses missing by at least 10 yards too often) and he can't blow by the opposition when pressed (e.g. Maddison against us)
- Play Mount as the AM. He might be more effective than Bruno. Mount would keep possession better and he is certainly better at dribbling.
- This would add mobility to our defense because Bruno can cover a lot of ground.
- Bruno would provide a commanding presence in the middle of the pitch which we are lacking.

I don't know if Bruno would accept this change. However, I really think Bruno could be a much better 8 than he ever will be as an AM.

Bruno as a deeplying 8 would never truly work. He is way to reckless and not press resistant enough for that role. On top of that you are taking him further away from where he is fantastic. Bruno is at his best as a creator higher up the pitch. Asking Bruno to be more composed and do less risky passing is essentially ruining what makes him the great player he can be.

The midfield worked quite well in the first half against Spurs, but we lacked the finishing. In the second half we stopped pressing and man marking and all went to shit.

 

[b20times]

Casemiro doesn't look up to speed. Mount hasn't settled. Bruno has got the weight of captaincy around his neck. We have absolutely nobody in midfielder if there is a turnover.
Mctominay, although limited in his attributes, could sit whilst others bomb on. We're too offensive and leave huge holes in behind.

 

[Wazzaduke33]

Bruno is a 10, any other position in midfield that requires discipline, passing accuracy and consistency just isn’t him. My starting 11 would be, as a 4-2-1-3

Onana

AWB
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Case
McT

Bruno

Rashford Left
Rasmus CF
Mount Right

Obviously an upgraded DMF to sit alongside Case is required, McT is just a fill in for now

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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Our midfield defending is like a bunch of Freds on his worst day

 

[hobbers]

Casemiro has been overall on a shocking run of form more or less since the cup win.

 

[fezzerUTD]

Come up with a logical reason why he would make him captain. You've not really provided any, could have easily picked Rashford, the darling of Manchester, or Varane even for the experience.

I don’t need to i made the statement, you’re the one which brought the captaincy into it. And I also gave the reason why I think he’s captain before.

 

[gerdm07]

Bruno is one of the best attacking mids in the league. He’s scored 44 in 124 games and assisted 32. Only De Bryune has created more goal scoring chances. Moving him after two games and him just being made captain is silly.

26 and 19 of those goals and assists were from the first season and a half here. Here are more sobering numbers.
18 goals and 14 assists in 73 PL games the last two seasons (De Bruyne had 22 and 24, respectively, in 62 matches)
1 goal in 11 EL matches last season
0 goals in 7 CL matches in 21/22.

He is not one of the best AMs in the league anymore. Sorry.

 

[Ayoba]

26 and 19 of those goals and assists were from the first season and a half here. Here are more sobering numbers.
18 goals and 14 assists in 73 PL games the last two seasons (De Bruyne had 22 and 24, respectively, in 62 matches)
1 goal in 11 EL matches last season
0 goals in 7 CL matches in 21/22.

He is not one of the best AMs in the league anymore. Sorry.

Agree. Now that his goals and assists have dried, he's basically a liability. I'm genuinely worried for the season, its clear as day this midfield trio won't work, the only resort is bringing in Mctominay. FFS its like 1 step forward and 2 backwards with this club.

 

[sullydnl]

Interesting to see Arsenal's approach in the last two games.

They're playing a midfield three that is on face value similar to ours. One DM (Rice) behind two AMs (Odegaard & Havertz). But they're also playing another actual midfielder (Partey) as their nominal RB, letting him invert into midfield alongside Rice rather than making a typical fullback do it.

Makes me wonder:

A) If they're only doing that because they don't love their RB options?
B) If we could do anything similar?
C) If Arteta is getting any of the sort of criticism ETH would definitely get for what I think some posters on here would describe as "building an unbalanced midfield and needing to play another midfielder at RB to fix it".

 

[Ayoba]

Interesting to see Arsenal's approach in the last two games.

They're playing a midfield three that is on face value similar to ours. One DM (Rice) behind two AMs (Odegaard & Havertz). But they're also playing another actual midfielder (Partey) as their nominal RB, letting him invert into midfield alongside Rice rather than making a typical fullback do it.

Makes me wonder:

A) If they're only doing that because they don't love their RB options?
B) If we could do anything similar?
C) If Arteta is getting any of the sort of criticism ETH would definitely get for what I think some posters on here would describe as "building an unbalanced midfield and needing to play another midfielder at RB to fix it".

Rice and Odeggard are better players than Casemiro and Bruno. Cas, I think this legs are gone, so easy to dribble past. Bruno can barely keep the ball, let alone influence a game.

The other thing is, Saka and martinelli are infinitely better than our wide players, so the system emplyed by Arteta, although similar to ours, works for Arsenal because they simply have better players than us.

 

[JuriM]

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[VP89]

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These types of stats are the worst. Hes isolated a lot of the time it's going to happen

 

[JuriM]

These types of stats are the worst. Hes isolated a lot of the time it's going to happen

Ye, but that should show to the team and coaching staff that the system ain't working atm. He shouldn't be that alone.

 

[sullydnl]

Rice and Odeggard are better players than Casemiro and Bruno. Cas, I think this legs are gone, so easy to dribble past. Bruno can barely keep the ball, let alone influence a game.

The other thing is, Saka and martinelli are infinitely better than our wide players, so the system emplyed by Arteta, although similar to ours, works for Arsenal because they simply have better players than us.

Could well be, but in this case I'm specifically just wondering about the midfielder-inverting-from-fullback idea.

Imagine we signed a midfielder (Amrabat if that's who people like, but whoever really. Even Mainoo, say) and played him nominally in place of AWB/Dalot, but actually tucking in alongside Casemiro as Partey will shift alongside Rice for Arsenal.

Would that make us better? Would people think it was a sign of compensating for poor team building on our part or just a legit set-up? Would it potentially work for Arsenal in a way it wouldn't for us for some reason? Would it be good in some games but not others?

 

[cyberman]

Jamie’s agenda against Casemiro is frightening

 

[VP89]

Ye, but that should show to the team and coaching staff that the system ain't working atm. He shouldn't be that alone.

I think we need to give the coaching staff and the players some patience to get into it.

 

[jesperjaap]

Pople can talk about whatever way they wish to line up those three. Personally none of them work, It is either Fernandes or Mount for me, none of them have t he game to play the defensive aspect of the role or the phsyciality. That is what makes the Mount signing such a strange one, really dont see it working out unless he replaces Fernandes, it is the biggest mistake Te Hag has made.

Even more concerning has been the downward spiral Casemeiro has been on for a while. I have defended him, one of the best midfielders at the world cup and in the premiership for the first few months,

He has been left isolated not just this season but for the majority of last season. I put the slump down to tiredness, frustration at the suspensions and a lack of form....But the more I see highlights and in game analysis, the more there is genuine concern. The twiter link of username Daniel very much highlights this.

His body language, reactions, movement ...so much looks that little bit off. Is is confidence, lack of preseason match fitness, off field problems, honeymoon period waning or most concerning age. We have seen lots of players have an indian summer peak before declining very quickly, happened with Van Persie.

For me we have 3 number 10s in Fernandes, Eriksen who looks done and a £60m signing that is playing as a number and is he actually better than Fernandes and genuine competition as the attackign role?

We have two very young number 8's in Mainoo and Hannibal and we have Mainoo as a potential back up to Casemeiro and no other options there really.

We have signed three midfielders when already having Fernandes, we have loaned a midfielder, we have two talented youngsters, yet we are possibly two midfielders away from a midfield.

I think our first choice keeper and defence is decent, I think our first choice front three is decent....neither are perfect....but the area Ten Hag has nade the most signings is probably the furthest away from a good unit, not just defensively eiher.

Totally unproven at this level, but I genuinely believe the two youngstesr are our two best options for the Mount role currently

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

arsenal have literally beaten palace away with the exact kinda midfield set up we have. 1 holder and two 10s. The main difference between us and them is they have been compact through out. Talk of having better players is ludicrous

 

[OL29]

arsenal have literally beaten palace away with the exact kinda midfield set up we have. 1 holder and two 10s. The main difference between us and them is they have been compact through out

They also have Odegaard and Havertz who keep the ball very well and Rice who’s very athletic and also keeps the ball well. Our midfielders treat the ball like a ticking time bomb.

 

[Teja]

arsenal have literally beaten palace away with the exact kinda midfield set up we have. 1 holder and two 10s. The main difference between us and them is they have been compact through out

They also have Odegaard and Havertz who keep the ball very well and Rice who’s very athletic and also keeps the ball well. Our midfielders treat the ball like a ticking time bomb.

Yeah we're basically playing identical systems. Their pressing structure is also quite similar now - we seem to have stopped the thing where the winger + striker combine to make the front two pressing and it's Bruno (Odegaard) and Nketiah (Rashford) instead.

I think it's partly poor form from our players + a new system. I don't think Rice is better on the ball than Casemiro. Same with Havertz / Mount.

 

[sullydnl]

arsenal have literally beaten palace away with the exact kinda midfield set up we have. 1 holder and two 10s. The main difference between us and them is they have been compact through out. Talk of having better players is ludicrous

Aye the fundamental idea is sound. The question is whether we in particular have the personnel to make it work.

As I noted above, they actually fit another midfield player into the team by using Partey as the nominal inverting RB. Do we have players (of whatever natural position) as suited to that role? Some would also argue that the types of midfielders they have populating the system are very different, with someone like Odegaard being better at retaining possession.

On the flip side, you might just argue that they're just better prepared at the moment and that with time we'll improve.

 

[r0663664]

I never thought United's depend on Mainoo. One freaking injury and it derail our whole season, I wonder what happan if Casemiro gets injured. It really suck to be a United fan.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

They also have Odegaard and Havertz who keep the ball very well and Rice who’s very athletic and also keeps the ball well. Our midfielders treat the ball like a ticking time bomb.

Today I saw Rice dribbled with ease by Eze for exmple. The reason it ended up in naught was Partey and two others were in close proximity. When Casemiro for example got beat first Nunes vs Wolves, then Maddison vs Tottenham, NO United players were in close proximity. The difference there in being compactness. Not ball retention nor athleticism. Even down to 10 men at no point did Arsenal allow the compactness of their shape to dissipate, yet at one point Palace had 80% of the ball for a sustained period.


Our shape the last two games has had no compactness at all. Be it in nor out of possession. Its both why we struggled in the buildup vs wolves and utterly struggled to contain Spurs in second half whenever we lost the ball

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Aye the fundamental idea is sound. The question is whether we in particular have the personnel to make it work.

As I noted above, they actually fit another midfield player into the team by using Partey as the nominal inverting RB. Do we have players (of whatever natural position) as suited to that role? Some would also argue that the types of midfielders they have populating the system are very different, with someone like Odegaard being better at retaining possession.

........

They bring that argument up because they are plain missing the point. Arsenal were compact. From Rasmdale to Nketiah (depth) From Partey to Tomiyasu/Martinelli (width) A thing that has nothing to do with ball retention nor athleticism. just team shape. Without the ball you had to play around them. For us last two games it has been piss easy to play through us thanks to the acres of spaces we keep leaving between players

 

[OL29]

Today I saw Rice dribbled with ease by Eze for exmple. The reason it ended up in naught was Partey and two others were in close proximity. When Casemiro for example got beat first Nunes vs Wolves, then Maddison vs Tottenham, NO United players were in close proximity. The difference there in being compactness. Not ball retention nor athleticism. Even down to 10 men at no point did Arsenal allow the compactness of their shape to dissipate, yet at one point Palace had 80% of the ball for a sustained period.


Our shape the last two games has had no compactness at all. Be it in nor out of possession. Its both why we struggled in the buildup vs wolves and utterly struggled to contain Spurs in second half whenever we lost the ball

Yeah I’ll concede that they’re a much better drilled unit then us. Their players never seen isolated in either defence or attack. I’m just sceptical about whether Ten Hag can get our players to keep our shape so well. Unfortunately, I don’t think we have the athleticism I’m defence to compensate.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yeah I’ll concede that they’re a much better drilled unit then us. Their players never seen isolated in either defence or attack. I’m just sceptical about whether Ten Hag can get our players to keep our shape so well. Unfortunately, I don’t think we have the athleticism I’m defence to compensate.

I'm certain we don't. That is why compactness is paramount in terms of the drilled tactics of shape. Not our ability to keep ball or athletic prowess. If we don't improve our ability to be compact we will keep being easy to pick off and play against and will keep finding it hard to impose ourselves. The compactness of Arsenal's shape multiplies the sum of their ability to keep ball and be athletic, whilst minimizing weaknesses. I'm convinced it will have the same effect on us if we can harness it.

 

[Abraxas]

I think unless Mount learns the fundamentals of this role extremely quickly then this is going to end up a failed experiment. Which is very strange because it was entirely forseeable. You should buy people for roles and profiles not try and magic people into something they're not. That stuff is okay once you've got a player into the squad, he has had relative success and you want to experiment which someone like Pep does all the time, but why would you base a transfer strategy on such high risk plays. Most clubs don't do that, they have a hole and they find the most suitable profile for it.

At the moment I think we need to panic buy someone in that can help in deeper areas otherwise I don't really see that we've got enough help for Casemiro. Unless we go back to Scott McTominay, which really isn't good at all. Eriksen will play a part in the buildup but in tough PL away games not a chance he will function for a whole season at the required levels.

 

[Wazzaduke33]

Well Mount is out now until after the Int break. I’d consider putting Mainoo in with Case and trying to play Sancho into some sort of form

We 200% need to buy a young energetic DMF, Rice destroyed Palace last night and just shows why that type of player is commanding huge fees now, so important in modern football

 

[Levenstein]

I know it’s not gonna happen, but

could we play 4-4-2 ?

Sancho Casemiro Bruno Mount

——Hojlund——-Rashford

We can play Dalot instead of Sancho when we need to defend more. Antony and Martial can provide cover for two forwards.

 

[podurban2]

Well Mount is out now until after the Int break. I’d consider putting Mainoo in with Case and trying to play Sancho into some sort of form

We 200% need to buy a young energetic DMF, Rice destroyed Palace last night and just shows why that type of player is commanding huge fees now, so important in modern football

I believe Mainoo will be out for a couple more weeks unfortunately.

 

[Kostov]

arsenal have literally beaten palace away with the exact kinda midfield set up we have. 1 holder and two 10s. The main difference between us and them is they have been compact through out. Talk of having better players is ludicrous

Now is it? Ludicrous to say that Rice, Odegaard and Havertz are better than what we have? I'd take that midfield over ours in a heartbeat.

 

[Posh Red]

Now is it? Ludicrous to say that Rice, Odegaard and Havertz are better than what we have? I'd take that midfield over ours in a heartbeat.

The difference isn’t huge whichever side of the fence you’re on, though.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Now is it? Ludicrous to say that Rice, Odegaard and Havertz are better than what we have? I'd take that midfield over ours in a heartbeat.

Which wouldnt matter since our tactics for the last two games would equally expose them. Thats why its ludicrous. Too many are conflating the set up with the players. Anyone who imagines Rice for example would havd faired any better having Nunes run at him without cover. Or being double teamed and tripple teamed by Maddison, Richarlison and Bissouma with no help with in 20 yards in any direction isn't serious.

 

[Kostov]

The difference isn’t huge whichever side of the fence you’re on, though.

It's not, but Casemiro either being a slow starter or maybe even start declining has made it an evident difference in favor to their midfield, with the others being Odegaard=Bruno and Mount vs Havertz too early to call.

 

[Kostov]

Which wouldnt matter since our tactics for the last two games would equally expose them. Thats why its ludicrous. Too many are conflating the set up with the players

I don't think it's only about the tactics, Casemiro, Bruno and Mount have been equally appalling in their own conduct, and should bare responsibility. Casemiro probably has the biggest excuse after being left to deal with lots of work, but he has been subpar and there's not hiding from it.

 

[podurban2]

It's not, but Casemiro either being a slow starter or maybe even start declining has made it an evident difference in favor to their midfield, with the others being Odegaard=Bruno and Mount vs Havertz too early to call.

Another difference-maker is that Odegaard is more comfortable with possession-based ball recycling than Bruno is. Making Bruno not an ideal player in this 2x#10 system. He’s more suited as a lone #10 chance creator. I’d probably say the same goes for Havertz vs Mount but to a lesser degree.

So while quality-wise the difference isn’t huge, for this system the results vary greatly, where we come out lacking.