Erik ten Hag vs Sancho

[Mourinhonista]

What a poor take. Sancho has been given every opportunity and been fully supported by ETH despite all evidence pointing to the fact he’s doing the bare minimum while picking up £300k + per week. Given all that happened last season for ETH to give the (innocuous) statement he did being vaguely negative speaks volumes to me, and it’s certainly not about the manager’s ego.

I don't think Ten Haag trusts Sancho. For sure he didn't play him as often as Antony. If your manager doesn't suppport you, especially as a young player, it becomes difficult to perform. He just gives the player enough rope to hang himself.

Last season United didn't score that many goals despite removing Ronaldo. This season Antony has been sidelined and still Ten Haag doesn't give Sancho the platform to perform. Everyone knows what the boy can do, he should be above Rashford when it comes down to skill level. United believed that otherwise they wouldn't have paid him more per week when they signed him.

As a manager it's your job to work with what you have. Ten Haag doesn't seem to understand that.

He just comes across as petulant and incompetent. The story back when he was at Bayern draws a pretty grim picture. He always knows best but the results say otherwise.

 

[AndySmith1990]

I don't think Ten Haag trusts Sancho. For sure he didn't play him as often as Antony. If your manager doesn't suppport you, especially as a young player, it becomes difficult to perform. He just gives the player enough rope to hang himself.

Last season United didn't score that many goals despite removing Ronaldo. This season Antony has been sidelined and still Ten Haag doesn't give Sancho the platform to perform. Everyone knows what the boy can do, he should be above Rashford when it comes down to skill level. United believed that otherwise they wouldn't have paid him more per week when they signed him.

As a manager it's your job to work with what you have. Ten Haag doesn't seem to understand that.

He just comes across as petulant and incompetent. The story back when he was at Bayern draws a pretty grim picture. He always knows best but the results say otherwise.

Drivel

 

[stevoc]

From what we’re hearing, Ten Hag has tried to have clear the air talks with him and will let him back in the team if he apologises. He’s refused to do that and now won’t even train with the first team.

Sancho thinks he’s a scapegoat for some reason when all he’s being asked to do is come to work on time and try.

If we finish 6th this season it won’t be because the manager didn’t try, it will be because dickheads like Sancho downed tools in September.

That's fair enough but the whole situation could have been avoided by keeping player issues private. The media can create enough drama around the club without the manager helping them out.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Classic case of give em enough rope and they will hang themselves.
Afforded time off and specialist training in another country.
Pandered to his ego beyond any need.
Then it’s all thrown back in the manager’s, clubs and fans face.
He’s let everyone down while raking in an absolute fortune.
Shed no tears for someone that basically can’t be arsed in a privileged position

 

[stevoc]

You can only try to help someone so much ffs, it is not ETH fault Sancho is acting like a lazy cnut. The only consequences should be on Sancho, end of.

If we seriously underperform this season I imagine rightly or wrongly there will be consequences for the manager just like there were for Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and Solskjaer. I'm not saying anything that everyone doesn't already know. Every manager post SAF that's failed to get CL football in a full season has got the chop, Jose and Ole both went mid-season when it looked like it was beyond them. Sadly I don't think Ten Hag will be immune from that regardless of the circumstances.

 

[stevoc]

To be fair to ETH he didn’t ask for any of this that is happening. He didn’t know sancho was gonna kick up a fuss. He didn’t know Antony was gonna get accused of stuff and be suspended. He didn’t know Mount, Varane and Martinez was all gonna get injured. He can only cope with what he’s got. So if we do start winning and manage to end the season in top 4 then it would have been a decent season considering the start we’ve had and what ETH has had to deal with.

Fair enough but this Sancho drama being made public was entirely avoidable.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

What an opportunity he had this season but he’s blown it. What a waste. Bruno on the right wing it is then….. yay!

 

[Yanited__]

If we seriously underperform this season I imagine rightly or wrongly there will be consequences for the manager just like there were for Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and Solskjaer. I'm not saying anything that everyone doesn't already know. Every manager post SAF that's failed to get CL football in a full season has got the chop, Jose and Ole both went mid-season when it looked like it was beyond them. Sadly I don't think Ten Hag will be immune from that regardless of the circumstances.

I can't lie, I actually think Ten Hag would be one of the first managers to survive that (not making the top 4 and getting sacked) but it depends on the way he does not achieve that goal. I think the club know they cannot (plus have been called out for) keep chopping changing managers too frequently. Whether you believe Ten Hag will bring major success to us or not (PL/UCL), there's something different about him and I think the club for once can see that.

However, as I said I do think it's the way/manner of how the season goes. If we were to say finish 10th and have a Ole/Rangnick style collapse, then yes, he will get sacked. If we finish outside the top 4 like LVG did in his last season (i.e came very close) I actually think they will give him the benefit of the doubt, rightly or wrongly.

 

[RedOrange]

Seems like you are not actually reading my posts mate. No not because of the loss of Sancho in isolation, it seemed like ETH wanted 6 options for the front 3 this season. Garnacho, Rashford, Hojlund, possibly Greenwood (as we didn't sign another striker), Antony and Sancho. Of those 6 we've most likely lost 3 (one I agreed with) for the season, it's September and we've only played 4 games.

We're already playing a make shift defence because of a defensive injury crisis and we're now one attacking injury away from playing a make shift attack as well from the looks of it.

Fun times.

Placating lazy players is absolute poison, though. There are likely more than a few other players at the club who will start phoning it in if they think they'll get away with it. I get what you're saying about keeping things in house but ETH kept it private for over a year and Sancho hadn't responded. Besides, at some point if a player isn't applying himself and isn't being selected, people are going to figure it out anyways, especially when he was bought for a huge transfer fee and is on huge wages. It's all well and good trying to protect the player's resale value but if he's not working hard in training and on the pitch and isn't being selected, other clubs will figure it out pretty quickly.

 

[stevoc]

If we ended up relying on Sancho to prevent us finishing 7th, then we'd be finishing 7th.

Even without this incident it would have been absolutely zero suprise to see someone like Bruno favoured at RW ahead of Sancho anyway, so unless we suffer an injury crisis beyond the one we're already experiencing the impact of Sancho being excluded should be minimal.

Shifting our most creative player out wide for the season doesn't sound like a great idea. If this shit wasn't happening I doubt Ten Hag would have sacrificed Bruno in the middle to move him out wide over an actual Right winger. Probably for some games but full time, who knows.

 

[Oranges038]

Bring things to a head that had dragged on hidden behind closed doors.

More seriously though, why would he lie? He was asked a direct question, and I
it's really not a massive thing. He simply said His performances didn't warrant selection for that week. Happens, what's the big deal? He even made the point that he has to choose between many players.

I honestly don't know what some folks on here are looking for from the manager. Managers can say players haven't performed to standard, whether in training or in a game, and they do.

Fergie regularly left players out that weren't working to the standards expected.

It's what managers should do. The reaction of the player tells you all you need to know about their mentality.

Once they knuckle down and work hard to win their spot back, they earn the respect and trust that goes along with it.

Once they throw the toys out, they aren't worth wasting time on.

 

[stevoc]

Ten Hag did nothing but say he wasn't in the squad due to his training levels when asked. Which is fine. Which is also why sancho isn't playing. It's the bare minimum. So yeah, if a player is training like shit, then no they won't play even if the player ahead is in poor form. That's very straightforward and a standard thing across all sports.

He said a bit more than that and when it's the manager of Man Utd saying it it will be spun into a massive story, he should have known that.

But Ten Hag said: “We did not select Jadon because of his performances in training.

“You have to reach a certain level every day at Manchester United and we can make choices in the front line. So for this game he was not selected.”

Or you know he could have just gave the usual stock bullshit manager answer.

''We felt Jadon lacked a bit of sharpness/fitness in training. So we thought he wasn't ready for today but he should hopefully be ready after the break.

Now normally I'd not be too fussed with any of this but Ten Hag at the time must have had an idea the shit with Antony could boil over any day. So it might have been an idea to play it safe. He didn't and there's now two less choices he can make in that front line.

 

[Frank White]

I don't think Ten Haag trusts Sancho. For sure he didn't play him as often as Antony. If your manager doesn't suppport you, especially as a young player, it becomes difficult to perform. He just gives the player enough rope to hang himself.

Last season United didn't score that many goals despite removing Ronaldo. This season Antony has been sidelined and still Ten Haag doesn't give Sancho the platform to perform. Everyone knows what the boy can do, he should be above Rashford when it comes down to skill level. United believed that otherwise they wouldn't have paid him more per week when they signed him.

As a manager it's your job to work with what you have. Ten Haag doesn't seem to understand that.

He just comes across as petulant and incompetent. The story back when he was at Bayern draws a pretty grim picture. He always knows best but the results say otherwise.

He would have had the platform to perform if he didn't act like a petulant child who spat his dummy out because he couldn't take valid and fair critism.

Reading your comment you'd think Eth is benching prime R9 when in reality Sancho has shown next to nothing to warrant so much benefit of doubt.

 

[stevoc]

Placating lazy players is absolute poison, though. There are likely more than a few other players at the club who will start phoning it in if they think they'll get away with it. I get what you're saying about keeping things in house but ETH kept it private for over a year and Sancho hadn't responded. Besides, at some point if a player isn't applying himself and isn't being selected, people are going to figure it out anyways, especially when he was bought for a huge transfer fee and is on huge wages. It's all well and good trying to protect the player's resale value but if he's not working hard in training and on the pitch and isn't being selected, other clubs will figure it out pretty quickly.

If that were true then another 3 months wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice then move him on in January and buy a replacement.

 

[bond19821982]

He said a bit more than that and when it's the manager of Man Utd saying it it will be spun into a massive story, he should have known that.



Or you know he could have just gave the usual stock bullshit manager answer.



Now normally I'd not be too fussed with any of this but Ten Hag at the time must have had an idea the shit with Antony could boil over any day. So it might have been an idea to play it safe. He didn't and there's now two less choices he can make in that front line.

That's still okay. We aren't a charity where players can just come and take things lightly. Perform or feck off. Fully with ETH now.

If it means finishing 8 so be it. We can't keep carrying mercenaries every year.

 

[Manny]

The guy turned up overweight at the start of his first season after signing a massive contract. Huge red flag that he has never removed.

He doesn't have the mentality, take whatever hit is needed to get rid and move on.

I always think back to that period. He had a crap Euros where he barely played and missed that penalty in the final. Then there were question marks about the price we paid.

If he had the right mentality, he would have been back in training and ready to prove everyone wrong. Instead, he had an extension to his summer and piled more pressure on himself, the manager and the club.

 

[USREDEVIL]

That's still okay. We aren't a charity where players can just come and take things lightly. Perform or feck off. Fully with ETH now.

If it means finishing 8 so be it. We can't keep carrying mercenaries every year.

Sometimes you gotta make a cut to get the poison out!

 

[bond19821982]

Sometimes you gotta make a cut to get the poison out!

Exactly. Probably ETH has had enough. Who knows what's happening in the back. At times, you have to go public to get a response. No one would just whine because of that. Chin it up and work your socks off.

 

[The Purley King]

Discipline starts from the top.
For the players that is ETH.
He did the 13k run last year with the players and he is running things his way, which is the (correct in my view) disciplined way.
How can someone who can’t be arsed in training be trusted to track back, work hard, stick to tactics during games?
Answer = he can’t
So he’s not going to play which is fine with me and absolutely how it should be. Hats off ETH for getting rid.

Sancho could have been a legend, but he’ll be remembered now for the rest of his “career” for being a (Rich) lazy arsehole who couldn’t muster up any respect and try hard for his teammates, manager or fans (who pay his wages).

Waste of rations.

 

[stevoc]

That's still okay. We aren't a charity where players can just come and take things lightly. Perform or feck off. Fully with ETH now.

If it means finishing 8 so be it. We can't keep carrying mercenaries every year.

That'll probably result in ETH getting the sack though. I think he's onto something good and I'd like to see that continue but I don't see him being allowed to if we finish that low. Unless we win the CL which is obviously unlikely.

 

[Dve]

This is what I saw too. I mentioned it on the transfer thread at the time he concerned me that he would be a bust but everyone seemed so sure.

Sancho was a very popular signing, mind. Probably one of the most popular signings post Ferguson. Maybe even more so the year before when we though we were going to sign him, but still a very popular signing when it happened. I struggle to come up with a signing that fans have shown so much patience. See how much patience we're giving Mount in comparison.

At the time we signed him, though, the Dortmund sport director (if I remember correctly) was quoted on that Sancho could become as good as wanted, but he had to learn to conduct himself like a professional athlete. That gave me a worry. Also seeing him coming back from the Covid break, overweight and totally out of form. At Dortmund, he tended to come back out of form after every break, but got himself in form by playing matches.

I think that has been Sancho's real problem at United. He doesn't get enough matches to play himself into form. Mid and late season he was very good for Dortmund, and not just because he was playing in a weaker league. Sancho and Haaland had a great partnership up front, and Sancho at his best looked genuinely good. He was considered one of the most talented young players in the world, remember.

Sancho can never be a squad player. He must go somewhere he'll be given game time also when he's out of form. Real Sociedad perhaps, or Lyon.

Or Bolton.

 

[Plant0x84]

It shouldn't have been made public, perhaps Ten Hag needs some more media training. Being manager of Manchester United any off the cuff remark can be spun into an ongoing drama.

I don’t agree. I think this is a deliberate and calculated move by Ten Hag, and I genuinely believe he has had enough of Sancho.
Last season Jadon was cosseted, afforded extra time and support and was praised by ten Hag when he came back into the team and scored a couple of goals.
But it seems Jadon has reverted to type, and has thrown all that back in ten hags face. I think Erik was wanting to provoke a response from Sancho, and whilst it wasn’t necessarily the response he wanted/expected he at least now knows Sanchos position, and can double down on his decisions. Jadon has showed his true colours.

 

[foolsgold]

Been given every opportunity here, frankly more than he’s deserved.

If he still doesn’t realise that he’s in the wrong and is throwing away his career then there’s no hope for him.

 

[Paul778]

Another waster to get rid of.

The mentality a lot of these players have is half the reason we are where we are.

Anyone think this is due to existing bad apples? People seeing what pogba and lingard could get away with?

 

[The Kag]

Because we end up with this mess? He didn't need to make this public.

That's fair enough but the whole situation could have been avoided by keeping player issues private. The media can create enough drama around the club without the manager heloing them out.

What alternative timeline aside from Ten Hag flat-out ignoring Sancho's current and previous transgressions could have prevented this mess? We've already gone down the more, subtle-not-subtle route last season when he was granted a sabbatical to get his mind and body sorted out. He was then reintegrated into the squad and afforded opportunities to showcase his abilities and ideally, a newfound zest for professionalism. Clearly he's not holding up his end of the bargain. The club is already 1,000 miles past the exit marked "love and patience" with this guy, which is why it's finally come to blows and spilled into the public eye. This isn't even Sancho's first rodeo when it comes to disciplinary issues and lack of application in his professional career, let alone at Manchester United. A new dilemma it is not.

It's all well and good to "keep it in house," but how? Back to my first point, if Sancho has been and continues to be insubordinate, under performs, and has disciplinary issues to the point where Ten Hag deems it necessary to omit him from the squad, what options does he realistically have? Give him a stern talking to and pray to the footballing gods that he returns the following week a changed and enlightened man? Based on what we've heard thus far, that didn't work the first, second, or 10th time. Eric Ten Hag can't very well lie about it indefinitely, channeling his inner Houdini by eluding pesky, probing questions as if he's dodging landmines.

"Right, why hasn't Sancho been selected for the squad for the past two months?"

"He's got food poisoning, the flu... he's injured."

Great, now Sancho takes to social media and says, "No I'm not. I'm ready to play! Ten Hag is a liar!" The outcome would eventually be the same either way. Why is the manager lying? Is Sancho lying? What's actually going on here and so forth. Welcome to a public game of rumors and speculation. I truly believe there is no clean way to do this.

That's fair enough but the whole situation could have been avoided by keeping player issues private.

The poignant point to be made here is that this could have all been avoided if Sancho heeded the advice from his employer and capitalized on the more than generous amount of opportunities for redemption. That's what's unfortunate.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Bit of a tricky situation for ETH to handle. A public "callout" of a player, even if not harsh, can be an effective management tool but it has to be deployed with due caution and must be appropriately calibrated to the temperament of the player and the current situation of the club. Pep can call Kalvin Phillips fat because he has utter and complete control of that dressing room, has enough goodwill in the bank from results he has achieved and has the complete backing of the management hierarchy. There is no risk of alienating the squad and even if he did, he could probably just replace them. Sir Alex could call out anyone he wanted to in the world, but he was noted for only situationally doing such things and being well attuned to the squad and the individual players.

ETH doesn't quite have the same standing, and doesn't quite have the same results and track record. He also doesn't have the flexibility to completely uproot the cultural rot because of the ownership situation combined with the still-high expectations, so he is in a bit of a bind. This is why top level management can be so difficult, because you have to have the emotional intelligence to know when is the appropriate time to deploy a particular tool with a particular player, bearing in mind all of the context. Rightly or wrongly, ETH is a couple more pubic spats with players from the "who is the common denominator in these spats" narrative starting to develop. Again, rightly or wrongly, you also cannot do it too frequently or you run the risk of looking like to you are shifting blame to the players and not owning the results. I don't think he has been wrong, per se, in any of these instances, but if the progress doesn't continue, then questions will be raised.

Was Jadon Sancho worth deploying one of the limited "public callouts" in his arsenal at this time in his United trajectory?

 

[tenpoless]

It's German for "the Bart, the"

 

[WPMUFC]

"being held to any kind of standard is a double standard" ~ Jadon Sancho 2023

 

[TheNewEra]

Hard work beats talent case.

His career is dead if he doesn't put in the work.

Literally the biggest club in England and one of the biggest in world football buys you and you can't be bothered working for £300k a week. Nothing will motivate him if that's the case.

 

[Superunknown]

Sancho hasn't got the right professional mentality to accept ETH's criticism as a challenge to improve as a player. He hasn't got the right mentality to move on from ETH's comments. Finally, he hasn't got the right mentality to accept his faults and apologise to ETH. He might have been a clever footballer for Dortmund, but he's fallen well short of the mark here.

We won't miss him because I never truly felt that we 'had him' in the first place. In 10 years time, he'll only be remembered for costing a lot of money, for being allowed such unheard of time off in the middle of a season, and for being an utter piss-dick on the way out.

Happy to get rid. We don't need players with this attitude at our club, regardless of how supposedly good they are said to be.

 

[Someone]

Is nobody on Team Sancho?

I still think ETH was wrong to criticize him in public, and the club is wrong to issue that statement. But it's hard to back a player who isn't professional enough for this level. ETH is a pragmatic manager and I'm sure he'd have loved to play an in form Sancho. All Sancho needed to do was to work hard. He made his bed.

 

[gza the genius]

I think the fact that we have two right wingers already out of the squad for now and Sancho being added to the list isn't even a real worry tells you all you need to know about his time here. He's had a few bright moments but overall him being available still is just having another body rather than an impactful player to the team. Sancho's reaction should also tell you everything you need to know about his attitude/dedication to United.

 

[Dve]

That's fair enough but the whole situation could have been avoided by keeping player issues private. The media can create enough drama around the club without the manager heloing them out.

For me, the situation is that we signed a player for 73 million that prefers not to train. And we are paying him 350k a week.

From a commercial perspective, the drama contributes to create interest around the club. Funny enough.

 

[Grande]

What alternative timeline aside from Ten Hag flat-out ignoring Sancho's current and previous transgressions could have prevented this mess? We've already gone down the more, subtle-not-subtle route last season when he was granted a sabbatical to get his mind and body sorted out. He was then reintegrated into the squad and afforded opportunities to showcase his abilities and ideally, a newfound zest for professionalism. Clearly he's not holding up his end of the bargain. The club is already 1,000 miles past the exit marked "love and patience" with this guy, which is why it's finally come to blows and spilled into the public eye. This isn't even Sancho's first rodeo when it comes to disciplinary issues and lack of application in his professional career, let alone at Manchester United. A new dilemma it is not.

It's all well and good to "keep it in house," but how? Back to my first point, if Sancho has been and continues to be insubordinate, under performs, and has disciplinary issues to the point where Ten Hag deems it necessary to omit him from the squad, what options does he realistically have? Give him a stern talking to and pray to the footballing gods that he returns the following week a changed and enlightened man? Based on what we've heard thus far, that didn't work the first, second, or 10th time. Eric Ten Hag can't very well lie about it indefinitely, channeling his inner Houdini by eluding pesky, probing questions as if he's dodging landmines.

"Right, why hasn't Sancho been selected for the squad for the past two months?"

"He's got food poisoning, the flu... he's injured."

Great, now Sancho takes to social media and says, "No I'm not. I'm ready to play! Ten Hag is a liar!" The outcome would eventually be the same either way. Why is the manager lying? Is Sancho lying? What's actually going on here and so forth. Welcome to a public game of rumors and speculation. I truly believe there is no clean way to do this.




The poignant point to be made here is that this could have all been avoided if Sancho heeded the advice from his employer and capitalized on the more than generous amount of opportunities for redemption. That's what's unfortunate.

I heard all of this post in the voice of Stephen West - Philosophize this! To me, rhat’s a fore-handed compliment

 

[Levi1]

Hard work beats talent case.

His career is dead if he doesn't put in the work.

Literally the biggest club in England and one of the biggest in world football buys you and you can't be bothered working for £300k a week. Nothing will motivate him if that's the case.

He's achieved everything he ever wanted before he reached maturity. I can actually understand him. The problem is an overly generous first contract and not enough performance clauses. This will keep happening until we change the compensation structure to include more bonus

 

[Oddboy]

I don't think Ten Haag trusts Sancho. For sure he didn't play him as often as Antony. If your manager doesn't suppport you, especially as a young player, it becomes difficult to perform. He just gives the player enough rope to hang himself.

Last season United didn't score that many goals despite removing Ronaldo. This season Antony has been sidelined and still Ten Haag doesn't give Sancho the platform to perform. Everyone knows what the boy can do, he should be above Rashford when it comes down to skill level. United believed that otherwise they wouldn't have paid him more per week when they signed him.

As a manager it's your job to work with what you have. Ten Haag doesn't seem to understand that.

He just comes across as petulant and incompetent. The story back when he was at Bayern draws a pretty grim picture. He always knows best but the results say otherwise.

Why was he also shit under Ole then?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Anyone think this is due to existing bad apples? People seeing what pogba and lingard could get away with?

100%. Mou got sacked and Pogba puts up a pic of him smirking on social media. That sums up the lackadaisical and unprofessional attitude that then has taken years to weed out. I think Ole meant well but he ended up exacerbating the problem. Then the club hired Ragnick and just abandoned him. There were so many reports of players taking the piss out of him and Armas. The club reeked of underachieving overpaid tossers.

 

[lex talionis]

No he did not. He was asked a question and he said he was left out because standards weren't being met, that's not having a pop. That's just stating fact.

Sancho is on big money and has never shown he was worth even a quarter of what was paid for him. If he wants to act like a cry baby because his manager doesn't think he works hard enough. So he can Bogarde his way through his massive contract. Then he's better off away from the first team squad.

Mate, stating a fact can in fact be a pop. Praise the manager all you want for his candor, but he had a pop at the player. Maybe that’s exactly what Sancho needed, but don’t deny that what actually happened didn’t actually happen.

I join you in condemning Sancho for being a massive disappointment — in another thread just an hour or two ago — but let’s not deny that ETH publicly took Sancho to the woodshed.

 

[moodyred]

Classic case of give em enough rope and they will hang themselves.
Afforded time off and specialist training in another country.
Pandered to his ego beyond any need.
Then it’s all thrown back in the manager’s, clubs and fans face.
He’s let everyone down while raking in an absolute fortune.
Shed no tears for someone that basically can’t be arsed in a privileged position

If he is an employee in my company, he will be long gone.

 

[L1nk]

ETH gave the lad 3 months away during his important debut season to sort himself out because he thought supporting Sancho to get himself mentally and physically well was more important than the football. He welcomed him back like a proud Dad with a smile on the touchline and yet some on here would have you believe Sancho has been hard done by and ETH is some monster. Sancho with a history of discipline issues with every club he’s been at including the England national team.

People complain about Ole’s complete lack of standards on the training ground, but then also complain when ETH (the man they wanted because he was a no nonsense manager with standards) starts to administer discipline to stick to these standards

Get rid of this clown and wind your necks in about the manager.