Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Our problems are far bigger than the manager. I certainly would not sack him or even entertain the idea.

I would admit, however, that I am concerned. One thing that the manager has control over is the way his team players. And I just don't see the progress. Or to be precide - I've seen the progress last season, we lost it in February under difficult circumstances of having loads of matches. But we haven't regained it even now.

That's where ETH is failing. And this is the one area he can't afford to.

That’s where I’m at. ETH has had a multitude of problems to deal with but to pretend that we shouldn’t also be doing better is also ignoring his own responsibilities. The simplicity of scoring against us is horrifying. You just pull the ball back to the edge of the area and nobody will have tracked your run.

Regardless of whether we should have bought 5 more players and sold a bunch more if this current squad isn’t following his tactical plans then he should leave people out. If that means Mejbri plays over Eriksen. Or Hansen-Aaroen over Rashford or Bruno. So be it.

More worryingly, if they are following his plans then it doesn’t seem a good plan.

Mostly, I’m just gutted. I really thought that ETH was the right choice and I hope he ends up proving to be. However, we had an entire pre-season to work on tactical plans and positioning and everything and we look out-coached every week….again.

I always think back to when Swansea got promoted to the PL. They played this lovely possession game and while it wasn’t always enough to win games every week the tactical identity was so clear.

We still seem to have no identity outside of greed, lack of composure, poor decision-making and lazy tracking of runners. We lack intensity not so much in workrate but in attention to detail and focus.
 
5 games in and already not bothered about where we are in the table. Long long season ahead.
 
Tbf Nagelsmann is the available one so will be easiest to get and that's what they will do. Do you see the Glazers parting with the £20m or so Brighton would demand for his signature? I don't.
Nagelsmann is not coming.

It's nothing to do with football but IIRC, he's still technically employed by Bayern and any club wanting him has to pay a break clause, something like 10m.

We know what our ownership does in these cases and considering we had to get Amrabat on loan, yeah, we're broke.
 
Is it still knee jerk if we lose our next three games? When is it not knee jerk?

I think sacking a manager after getting smashed 7-0 by Liverpool is perfectly reasonable. It’s what a big club would do.
It is quite worrying when you start having to make excuses for a manager on a consistent basis. We have a big injury list right now, but how much of that is down to the fact that we went all out in every single competition last season and ended up with just a league cup to show for it. Apart from his inability to adjust tactically during games, his squad management has been his biggest weakness.

The whole Sancho situation is also infuriating when you consider the fact that we have players slacking off during games at Old Trafford getting a free pass. We finally have an actual striker playing for us, but no right winger to provide him with any service.
 
Nagelsmann is not coming.

It's nothing to do with football but IIRC, he's still technically employed by Bayern and any club wanting him has to pay a break clause, something like 10m.

We know what our ownership does in these cases and considering we had to get Amrabat on loan, yeah, we're broke.
:lol: I'd completely forgotten Amrabat was only a loan, the state of us.
 
I had expected more, but would still sack half the squad, the owners and the lunch lady before Ten Hag.
 
Both. The gaffer is not a deity in any other club. He sucks, he get fired. He probably doesn't even suck (see Del Bosque winning the league and instantly getting fired for reaching only the semis of UCL), he can still get fired. He is there to perform a job, and if that job is not done at an excellent standard, not this ridiculous waiting for the next 2, 3, 6 or until January 2026, he gets fired.

Which is as it should be. If a player does not perform (see Sancho) he gets benched or thrown out of the team. Correctly. People back the manager to do so. But if a manager does not perform, the same player scream 'give him another 2 years or such a ridiculous nonsense'.

Essentially, unless you are winning trophies every year like Pep does, most managers are 3-5 bad matches away from getting fired. United ones are one disaster season from getting fired. For some weird reasons.

Would you agree the job was done last season ? Because if so sacking him less than 10 games in is a little extreme.

While I don't agree I can hear the argument that MU shouldn't be shy sacking and replacing based on direct results (let's put aside the usual side debates about the lack of back office structure, potential takeover etc that might justify why it might not work properly here) : I still think it's too small a sample. Unless the next results are cataclysmically bad I'd say giving half a season is a minimum.
 
OK so now we're dropping the idea that De Zerbi would have done better? That's good, because it's ridiculous, but then it begs the question, who would you bring in instead?

To be honest though, you simply aren't being reasonable. ETH believes he can turn us into a top team, as he did with Ajax, given time, he was brought in to help effect cultural changes beyond just football and tactics, all of which take time. Why would he resign when he has the belief he can turn us into winners?
No. I still believe that de Zerbi would have done a better job than ETH, maybe not last season but defo this season, but I also realize that you do not agree so there is no point in debating that further. I doubt that any top manager thought that Mount was the player our midfield needed.

Some fans think ETH can change things beyond football and tactics, some fans think he cannot do anything due to our poor structure where Mount all of a sudden shows up for training wo ETH getting the memo. Him resigning was a respons to the latter view.
 
Compared to Murtough, Arnold, Fletcher etc who have failed with other managers?

What does failed with a manager mean? Their job is to bring him the players he wanted, which they did, spending ton and ton of money along the way. Tactics, coaching, lineup, subs, results and trophies are all on the coach. Their job ends with the end of the market. They aren't going to coach the team for him.
 
Usually back ETH but he completely messed up today, to play so narrow against Brighton who are known for their wingers and fullbacks bombing forward was confusing and amateurish.

I know he probably worked on this to deal with the loss of Antony/Sancho but it's worrying how a manager of ETHs experience got it wrong. Brighton were just doing rondos all over us and although people blamed Rashford for the weak press their gk had an easy over the top outlet to their full backs because of how narrow we were. Was a ridiculous watch.

Expected him to fix it earlier by moving Bruno back centrally and bringing on Garnacho/Pellistri for the right wing but his changes of formation was far too late to have any impact and the game was pretty much over and done with by then.

I haven't been impressed at all with his in game management and use of his substitutions but was always satisfied and impressed with his tactics, the game against Arsenal is a good example, despite the loss you could see what he set out to do and it worked for most of the game until the changing of our CBs forced us to change the way we played which is ultimately what costs us.

Today though, he got it completely wrong and it was very embarrassing.

Only positive I'd say is that he decided to try this narrow tactic against Brighton and not Liverpool, if it was vs the scousers we'd have had our worst ever loss at Old Trafford.
 
Use a system that works? Hell the personnel weren't the issue today. Keep the same lineup. Use the system we've always used. Or revert back to it when it's clear that Brighton got an advantage out of the starting system (15-20 minutes in). The individuals weren't failing at their jobs today. The job they were being asked to do simply was a failing ask. The instructions were what gave Brighton the advantage, gave them acres of space.

You use width as normal and that just doesn't happen. We don't know how the game would go, but today was a very clear outclassed tactically and a failure to respond to it. Bruno wide as we've done in the past would be different with an actual CF like we had today. Or even if it's as usual, it'd still work better. As they wouldn't have 30 yards of empty field ahead of each full back to go forward uncontested. It's basic football. There is a reason why narrow formations are pretty much dead. They require very specific personnel and even then, they present huge issues which a good team like Brighton would exploit.

I'm not saying he's perfect but there is no system that works with an absent midfield.
 
I've made my thoughts known already, but I think this is the beginning of the end for him. We won't sack him yet because we insist on waiting till the team and the fans are in the absolute gutter before we do that.

But right now I am fully convinced he's not a top level manager, tactician or man manager. He has faced Brighton numerous times and has yet to lay a glove on them tactically. Today we set up to play into their hands completely. Narrow press where we only commit a few players, easy avenue out, full backs all over the place. This is something a good tactician doesn't let happen. And his signings are all dubious for me. Basically he's just not it.

People are saying 'well we've tried so many managers, what's going to change?' Well today you had it slapping you in the face. De Zerbi changed their football from day one into what he wanted, and it is effective. They had a shoestring team out today and it was there for anybody with eyes to see. The perfect example of a manager upholding his end of the bargain and drilling, coaching, setting up a team to be effective. Better than the sum of the parts.

So my overall opinion is simply that we've just hired wrong continously. We've not managed to find somebody to click with the players that can put out 11 players minimum that are well coached in an effective/ attractive style of play.

And I hate to say it but many of our fans were sold a dud with ETH. They didn't do their homework. He is not what you thought he was and, actually, his football is fecking dire to watch. He's nowhere near Klopp and Pep, probably nowhere near managers a level below them or even more. He's made a name for himself in a one team league where the lower placed teams are dreadful.

If it were me I'd try somebody else and try to revive this team. Even if we have to keep churning managers then so be it. The absolute worst thing to do is to stick by something that's failing. I saw it coming with Ole and faced the same arguments by his acolytes. There's just no chance we'll ever hang with the top clubs with ETH.
I don't think we're at the point of no return yet, we shouldn't sack him because of bad results in the middle of an injury crisis, 5 games in. Who would you suggest we replace him with right this minute?

As long as we stay within touching distance of top 4 we don't need to panic, there's still a chance we get Amrabat in the team and Hojlund starts scoring and our form picks up.

The exceptions to that will be if there's a player revolt against him. Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole all faced dressing room backlash which ultimately resulted in horrendous results/performances. The moment that becomes apparent we need to consider making a change. We need to keep a close eye and ear to that dressing room to ensure the players are still actually putting in the effort or they're actively trying to get him sacked.

What I would say, if we genuinely had the best squad in the world, I'm sure some of the managers we've had could have been a success here. So in that sense, the recruitment is theoretically the major issue, because we've had some credentialed managers here who likely could have won the league with a squad full of world class players.

However the manager has to take responsibility for
1. Not making the most out of what we have, even if it's not the best squad in the world. If we're getting outplayed regularly by inferior teams it means we've got major coaching/tactical issues.
2. He must take a significant portion of the blame for the poor signings and squad building. Signing players past their peak, without the right physical profile, without the right technical profile - managers at minimum have a veto on signings put forward to them, and in some cases they're actively pushing for players they've selected themselves.
 
Would you agree the job was done last season ? Because if so sacking him less than 10 games in is a little extreme.

While I don't agree I can hear the argument that MU shouldn't be shy sacking and replacing based on direct results (let's put aside the usual side debates about the lack of back office structure, potential takeover etc that might justify why it might not work properly here) : I still think it's too small a sample. Unless the next results are cataclysmically bad I'd say giving half a season is a minimum.
There were lows and highs last season (the 7-0 defeat could have easily been a stackable offence), but I think he did an ok job last season, definitely passable. I do not think he was great last season, but it was kinda ok, maybe our third/fourth best season in post SAF era.

I think we have been genuinely terrible this season. We lost 3 matches that we deserved to loss, we won 2, one of which (Wolves) we deserved to loss. Could have easily been 5 defeats. We were awful in pre-season, and while that in isolation means feck all, it is a serious problem when we were shit on the last 3 months of last season, and we are even worse now.

After all this spending, you expect something more that this dogshit football we play. So yup, I think he should be in borrowed time by now.
 
Honestly, after reading a lot of these comments, I am hoping Ten Hag actually walks from this shit show of a club. We don't deserve him. He deserves a much better run club to ply his trade. We are a complete embarrassment.
 
In his fourth season, before which he had won no trophies with us and finished mid table a couple of times (from Atkinson's side that had finished 4th multiple seasons), he lost 5-1 to City and 4-0 to Forest. Went two months without winning a game in the league. Finally got a trophy in the FA Cup and saved his skin.

It's 2023 and people are still using Ferguson as an example to give the manager more time. Incredible stuff. This excuse has been said for every single manager post SAF.

I have truly given up on United fans. We will never move forward as long as we are waiting for the next Ferguson and thinking that any manager will become a legend if given 3-4 years of being shit before winning something because it happened once in life time for a one of a kind as a manager.

United fans never learn.
 
We keep asking who would replace him. Where the feck did Brighton find their new manager? Why must we only pull household names out of a hat? Can we not pay some football experts to do some consultancy and identify decent coaches for us? Can't be that bloody hard when you have millions of quid at your disposal to solve a problem
Fans want the shiniest, most expensive new toy, and those who make personnel decisions know this.
 
Wtf, this is ridiculous! 5 or 6 starting players not available, all the nasty stuff happening in the last couple of weeks plus some really hard games at the start of the season.

We are far from where we should be at the moment. But at least let him play his new midfield. It's not beyond him to make it work.
 
It's 2023 and people are still using Ferguson as an example to give the manager more time.

I have truly given up on United fans. We will never move forward as long as we are waiting for the next Ferguson and thinking that any manager will become a legend if given 3-4 years of being shit before winning something because it happened once in life time for a one of a kind as a manager.
I'm not using it as an example to give him more time, I'm using it in response to someone asking whether he lost big twice in one season.

He should be given more time because there's bugger all point doing anything else.
 
You can tell that the knives are out for him already in the media. Problem with managers losing their jobs is that it's not always about whether they deserve it or not, if the narrative starts changing around you things tend to get worse. I don't trust that we have a group of players that wouldn't throw in the towel. If he fails to turn things around quickly he's toast.
 
What does failed with a manager mean? Their job is to bring him the players he wanted, which they did, spending ton and ton of money along the way. Tactics, coaching, lineup, subs, results and trophies are all on the coach. Their job ends with the end of the market. They aren't going to coach the team for him.
They've hardly done their job when the squad has players ETH is stuck with and wants to move on and replace. I'm sure ETH wanted to play Reguilon, McTominay, Martial etc today.
 
Keep him. I genuinely think the club matters to him and he acheived a lot last season with what he had. I do think there's a lot of rot at the club though, and I think Rashford is one of them, sadly.
 
United fans scared Ten Hag might walk? :lol:
Who the feck is Ten Hag in the grand scheme of things? The guy that can't win away from home and gets battered by his rivals several times a season. Make no mistake, he's just as shit as United right now.
 
I have truly given up on United fans. We will never move forward as long as we are waiting for the next Ferguson and thinking that any manager will become a legend if given 3-4 years of being shit before winning something because it happened once in life time for a one of a kind as a manager.

United fans never learn.

So what you are saying is.. We should sack Ten Hag and just hire a manager that is even better than Klopp and Pep? Cause they won everything in the first season + five games... No problem.
 
Really?? If this is true then we are feckd
That guy has made some big claims but I don't think the mods have verified their veracity.

And even if they're true, the guy wanted to jettison these guys in favour of his Ajax pals, so I hardly think they'll need a lot to turn on him :lol: .
 
Oh come on now,
De Zerbi has an amazing setup at Brighton behind him.
Their scouting is second to none,
and while they aspire to be a top 6 club,

there's hardly any pressure over there.

He will fail miserably trying to make United competitive again,
as would any other manager at the moment.

Managing United- with the pressure, the expectations of fans, the crap owners, the mentality of a lot of players, the drama- is one of the most challenging jobs in world football currently.

The vast majority of managers in the calibre we'll be looking at, will avoid us, and rightly so.

Brighton's starting 11 cost 20m
 
In his fourth season, before which he had won no trophies with us and finished mid table a couple of times (from Atkinson's side that had finished 4th multiple seasons), he lost 5-1 to City and 4-0 to Forest. Went two months without winning a game in the league. Finally got a trophy in the FA Cup and saved his skin.
Stop being so reasonable.
 
I do think we’ve made a habit of sacking managers and allowing the players off the hook.

Almost regardless of results I’d like to see us stick with Ten Hag and if he says we have sell Bruno or Rashford or whoever then do it.

The whole team needs to be told from the top that Ten Hag is safe but no player is if this keeps up.
Agreed
 
Keep. He's a top manager in a shitshow of a club. He's effectively had the season sabotaged by Arnold's awful handling of Greenwood.
We got beaten by Brighton because he couldn’t pick a player who hasn’t played in 2 years? I see your logic
 
Transforming playing style takes time. We should be patient and do what Arsenal has done with Arteta. The manager definitely needs more support in scouting/buying/selling players though
 
They've hardly done their job when the squad has players ETH is stuck with and wants to move on and replace. I'm sure ETH wanted to play Reguilon, McTominay, Martial etc today.

They had already replaced them for him. They brought him Mount and Hojlund to replace Scott and Martial. Selling them or not isn't the reason for us losing. It's that the replacement he asked for them suck as players, and also got injured.
 
So what you are saying is.. We should sack Ten Hag and just hire a manager that is even better than Klopp and Pep? Cause they won everything in the first season + five games... No problem.

What does that even have to do with the post?

Next time read what you are replying to instead of repeating what you memorized over and over again without thinking.
 
Both. The gaffer is not a deity in any other club. He sucks, he get fired. He probably doesn't even suck (see Del Bosque winning the league and instantly getting fired for reaching only the semis of UCL), he can still get fired. He is there to perform a job, and if that job is not done at an excellent standard, not this ridiculous waiting for the next 2, 3, 6 or until January 2026, he gets fired.

Which is as it should be. If a player does not perform (see Sancho) he gets benched or thrown out of the team. Correctly. People back the manager to do so. But if a manager does not perform, the same player scream 'give him another 2 years or such a ridiculous nonsense'.

Essentially, unless you are winning trophies every year like Pep does, most managers are 3-5 bad matches away from getting fired. United ones are one disaster season from getting fired. For some weird reasons.
The weird reason is called Sir Alex Ferguson.
 
Liking the manager in general and accepting that he is doing bad job are two different things.
Manager should be rated by results. And nothing else.
Sorry, this is pages ago now but this is insane to me. By your assessment Ole was a better manager than both LVG and Moyes. Both of whom are still working in top jobs in the industry and Ole is unemployed. I think rating a manager is a little more nuanced than just results.
 
I was never for his appointment, but the club shouldn't sack now. It's a lot of ongoing situations and he should be allowed time to get things right.

There aren't many options available either and the club is very poorly run.

That said, his signings hasn't been brilliant and we're piss boring to watch
 
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