[MegadrivePerson]

I doubt it would work but anything is worth a try at this point.

You are ignoring the fact Bruno does his fair share of defensive work. He’s hardly an Ozil or Pogba type player.

And he doesn’t give the ball away in the center circle, its more him trying a cross or through ball that doesn’t reach its target.

Are we just going to play keep ball for 90 minutes with sideways passing.

Bruno has always been the sort of player that is likely to give the ball away because he attempts difficult passes. The same applies to Kevin De Bruyne and Trent Alexander Arnold.

The difference between the three teams has always been that City and Liverpool were much better at winning the ball back when they gave it away.

 

[El Jefe]

He’s crumbling under the pressure of being the captain. A very poor choice by ten Hag in my opinion.

I don’t really have time for him as a player but he is clearly capable of much more than he’s displaying atm. The extra responsibility is killing him on the pitch and as we know he’s already a very emotional player and that’s not the type of leader you want. He talks a good game and loves the little gestures in front of the camera and on social media that make him look like a leader but he isn’t a good one.

He’s most likely going to be the first player to get frustrated and lose his cool which directly impacts how he plays. Add in the weight of pressure and expectation and you can see he doesn’t look himself anymore.

When Maguire was captain it was very easy to be better than Maguire but now the standards are so much higher. He’s a player that runs off instinct and emotion. It’s not like his emotion is in the Sergio Ramos or Keane spectrum where it ignites a team, when you see Bruno start getting petulant and moaning as a team you just end up feeling sorry for yourself and that is a horrible characteristic for a leader.

He’s not himself and it’s only making his bad traits more visible. Both him and Rashford are crumbling under the weight of expectation placed on them which just further highlights they neither have the quality or mentality for the status they’ve been given here.

 

[zaafi]

Bruno has always been the sort of player that is likely to give the ball away because he attempts difficult passes. The same applies to Kevin De Bruyne and Trent Alexander Arnold.

The difference between the three teams has always been that City and Liverpool were much better at winning the ball back when they gave it away.

The difference is that Bruno fails to complete simple passes. It is almost Fred-like at times. How can you genuinely watch our games and conclude they're always difficult passes?

 

[MegadrivePerson]

Do Newcastle, Brighton, Aston Villa or West Ham play sideways passing? Why do you think we need Bruno to be a functional football team? Bruno runs a lot, he doesn't actually do much defensively. And even if he did, look how many goals we've conceded. Does it look like that midfield works?

You have to take in to account that the current team has a new goalkeeper that is the complete opposite to the style of the goalkeeper from last season, and three of the first choice defenders are missing. Do Newcastle, Brighton, Aston Villa or West Ham have the same defensive issues?

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

From well before Ole's time, we've been rubbish at making good choices in the final third. Bruno's a big part of that. Bruno's got unreal talent, but sometimes he gets caught out trying to light a cigarette with a flamethrower. If you've got two choices, A or B, and you always pick A without thinking, you're bound to mess up. You might hit the jackpot once in a while, but you're also setting yourself up for loads of errors. That's what Bruno's doing. He's got to develop a better sense for when to go for those killer passes and when to just keep the ball moving. If we're sticking with ETH's style, then Bruno has got to add some nuance to his game.

 

[Remember the geese]

I doubt it would work but anything is worth a try at this point.

You are ignoring the fact Bruno does his fair share of defensive work. He’s hardly an Ozil or Pogba type player.

And he doesn’t give the ball away in the center circle, its more him trying a cross or through ball that doesn’t reach its target.

Are we just going to play keep ball for 90 minutes with sideways passing.

Nothing personal against Bruno or Mount, but I would just be interested to see if a bit more of a conservative midfield would bring about a few results. Amrabat, Casemiro, Mainoo/Hannibal is a decent balance. Three actual centre midfielders, with no number 10's masquerading as 8's.

It would be a little reminiscent of the Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum midfield. Underwhelming from a creative point of view, sure. However, hopefully it would bring a bit of control and solidity to a team who is shipping far too many goals and is currently without three of their starting back four.

 

[zaafi]

You have to take in to account that the current team has a new goalkeeper that is the complete opposite to the style of the goalkeeper from last season, and three of the first choice defenders are missing. Do Newcastle, Brighton, Aston Villa or West Ham have the same defensive issues?

They don't have the same defensive issues because they have a functioning midfield that provides balance and stability. They don't play with a number 10 who is weak, unable to dribble, can't drive with the ball, weak mentally and loses his cool, technically average and looks to give the ball away at every opportunity. It's criminal how we allow him to play his own individualistic approach on the field.

 

[samlee86]

Do Newcastle, Brighton, Aston Villa or West Ham play sideways passing? Why do you think we need Bruno to be a functional football team? Bruno runs a lot, he doesn't actually do much defensively. And even if he did, look how many goals we've conceded. Does it look like that midfield works?

@Pogue Mahone already pointed out that Guimaraes gives the ball way more the Fernandes.

Like I said earlier, Bruno should play wide right of the front 3. Not in central midfield.

And I am by no means a Bruno fan boi. If we had a squad like Liverpool, Arsenal or City() then we would have dropped many of our players this season including Casemiro, Onana… etc.

But who would replace Bruno? Antony

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Nothing personal against Bruno or Mount, but I would just be interested to see if a bit more of a conservative midfield would bring about a few results. Amrabat, Casemiro, Mainoo/Hannibal is a decent balance. Three actual centre midfielders, with no number 10's masquerading as 8's.

It would be a little reminiscent of the Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum midfield. Underwhelming from a creative point of view, sure. However, hopefully it would bring a bit of control and solidity to a team who is shipping far too many goals and is currently without three of their starting back four.

But you end up taking all of our creativity out of midfield, leaving the entire creative burden on a front three of a right winger with amongst the worst creative stats in the league, a left winger who has one goal and zero assists in the league so far and a 20 year old debutant who has always been a finisher, not a creator. In a team that is already struggling to score goals. How can that possibly end well?

 

[zaafi]

@Pogue Mahone already pointed out that Guimaraes gives the ball way more the Fernandes.

Like I said earlier, Bruno should play wide right of the front 3. Not in central midfield.

And I am by no means a Bruno fan boi. If we had a squad like Liverpool, Arsenal or City() then we would have dropped many of our players this season including Casemiro, Onana… etc.

But who would replace Bruno? Antony

Pogue pointed out incorrect facts, so why do you assume what he says is correct? Bruno Fernandes has lost possession much more than Bruno Guimaraes. Just look up the stats yourself, mate.

Bruno should have been replaced with Maddison or Wirtz this summer, or another all-around CM that offers more stability.

 

[Idxomer]

All of the managers, you say, but all of the managers also failed, so where does that leave us? None of the top managers would do it, which is what our aim should be.

I know you're trying to post the dispossessed stats to make Bruno look better, but how about you look at loss of possession as a whole instead of dispossessed? Neither of these players you listed have lost possession more than Bruno, so it's a bit of a nonsense argument.

As for the pass completion rate; do you really find it surprising that attackers have worse pass completion rate than midfielders? Bruno should not be anywhere near 69%, and yes, it is quite a huge difference from 79-80%.

Yep, passing accuracy doesn't show possession lost for other stuff apart from misplaced passes. For example, Bruno has lost the ball 70 times more than Odegaard in the league and 40 times more than Maddison.

The biggest problem with Bruno doesn't show directly in those stats. He simply doesn't seem able to operate as part of the team except in one specific role. He can never be one of the 2 attacking midfielders on the team. One of them will always have to be shunted out wide for any hope of cohesive football. He's really poor too as a wide player. Bruno isn't a very versatile player, Ten Hag hasn't realized that so far which is another problem.

The only way to get the best of him and minimize his chaotic nature is behind two defensive/central midfielders. There were a lot of quotes in 21/22 about how the plan was to go with two attacking midfielders and be more adventurous. We all know how that went and Ten Hag is repeating the same mistake again.

 

[Pronewbie]

Yep, passing accuracy doesn't show possession lost for other stuff apart from misplaced passes. For example, Bruno has lost the ball 70 times more than Odegaard in the league and 40 times more than Maddison.

The biggest problem with Bruno doesn't show directly in those stats. He simply doesn't seem able to operate as part of the team except in one specific role. He can never be one of the 2 attacking midfielders on the team. One of them will always have to be shunted out wide for any hope of cohesive football. He's really poor too as a wide player. Bruno isn't a very versatile player, Ten Hag hasn't realized that so far which is another problem.

The only way to get the best of him and minimize his chaotic nature is behind two defensive/central midfielders. There were a lot of quotes in 21/22 about how the plan was to go with two attacking midfielders and be more adventurous. We all know how that went and Ten Hag is repeating the same mistake again.

Yep. The same gaping hole in midfield with 1 DM and 2 CBs to cover a quick counter attack. Casemiro no longer has the legs for such a role unfortunately. And anyway it's inherently risky to regularly face a 3v3 situation.

 

[RuudTom83]

But you end up taking all of our creativity out of midfield, leaving the entire creative burden on a front three of a right winger with amongst the worst creative stats in the league, a left winger who has one goal and zero assists in the league so far and a 20 year old debutant who has always been a finisher, not a creator. In a team that is already struggling to score goals. How can that possibly end well?

I think the wish for some control in the midfield is resulting in a lot of fans going in the complete opposite direction away from Bruno.

But like you say creativity is still needed, so we can't just bin him off.

The main issue for me is how do you get the best out of Bruno and Casemiro. I would start by telling Casemiro to forget about attacking for a while and just be a DM.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Yet another poster who thinks the responsibility of creating chances should be given to one player, instead of a team. Who was responsible for creating chances in Newcastle's 4-1 thrashing against PSG?

Absolutely speechless how some people think this is a healthy approach to become an elite football team, especially after witnessing our glory for many years.

They will quote you on this, or respond to it. One thing I've noted here fanboy always respond to post which doesn't put them to task and need a verifiable response.

Bruno is the cause of why, we play Hollywood football, chaotic football, unsustainable football, outdated football which can't be elevated. It's inch perfect to when he arrived and made main man. Even Rashford and Casemiro have now become Hollywood footballers.

Other teams with no Hollywood football score more goals than us. Surprise surprise.
Other teams with no chaotic footballers win PL & CL but for us it's United DNA bullshit.

Many may ask, is it Bruno effect only which has brought all this..

Let me leave you with this analogy.

Lock a pastor and prostitute in a closed room for 1 week. After 1 week I can guarantee you, one of them will convert the other. I'm sure you know who will convert the other.

Bruno has converted all our play to his vision. Sadly.

 

[Remember the geese]

But you end up taking all of our creativity out of midfield, leaving the entire creative burden on a front three of a right winger with amongst the worst creative stats in the league, a left winger who has one goal and zero assists in the league so far and a 20 year old debutant who has always been a finisher, not a creator. In a team that is already struggling to score goals. How can that possibly end well?

What we are currently doing isn't working. Maybe it will when we have Shaw, Martinez and Wan-Bissaka back to full fitness, but right now we are leaking goals. A compromise can be found in tightening up the midfield. We may struggle to create with a more conservative midfield, however as you've already stated, we are struggling to score goals as it is. So nothing lost, but potentially a bit of a foundation and stability gained.

 

[kopviolator]

Is that so? Please tell me which teams out of Barcelona, Bayern München, Real Madrid or City would take Bruno Fernandes.

If given to them, probably all of them. Someone who creates and scores is a valuable asset you know. Big teams operate on big squads. There would be interest for sure.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yep, passing accuracy doesn't show possession lost for other stuff apart from misplaced passes. For example, Bruno has lost the ball 70 times more than Odegaard in the league and 40 times more than Maddison.

The biggest problem with Bruno doesn't show directly in those stats. He simply doesn't seem able to operate as part of the team except in one specific role. He can never be one of the 2 attacking midfielders on the team. One of them will always have to be shunted out wide for any hope of cohesive football. He's really poor too as a wide player. Bruno isn't a very versatile player, Ten Hag hasn't realized that so far which is another problem.

The only way to get the best of him and minimize his chaotic nature is behind two defensive/central midfielders. There were a lot of quotes in 21/22 about how the plan was to go with two attacking midfielders and be more adventurous. We all know how that went and Ten Hag is repeating the same mistake again.

Bruno has attempted 113 more passes than Odegaard in the league and 29 more than Maddison. This is obviously going to skew those comparisons. And, as I already said, he has over twice as much progressive distance on his passes as those two players (and has also created more big chances) so that also needs to be taken into account.

He hasn't been playing well this season. He's a struggling cog in a dysfunctional team and it's obvious just watching him that he's in a run of poor form. But that doesn't stop assorted giddy idiots in this thread wildly exaggerating all his weaknesses and glossing over his strengths. Which is where stats help to cut through their bullshit.

 

[zaafi]

Bruno has attempted 113 more passes than Odegaard in the league and 29 more than Maddison. This is obviously going to skew those comparisons. And, as I already said, he has over twice as much progressive distance on his passes as those two players (and has also created more big chances) so that also needs to be taken into account.

Progressive passing doesn't necessarily mean more difficult passes. I've no idea how you've come to that conclusion. Ødegaard regularly makes defence-splitting passes or lobs that goes through three defenders, which is a far more difficult pass to make than a long ball to Rashford who has acres of space to run into. Maddison made some incredible defence-splitting passes against Liverpool as well.

Arsenal play as a cohesive unit. Our players are coached into giving Bruno the ball. They have no confidence in themselves and rely on him to create. It's not organised or team play. It's a chaotic mess. When you are given the ball more often, you also attempt more passes. He has created one more big chance than Maddison. Impressive. Very nice. Let's see his assists.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Progressive passing doesn't necessarily mean more difficult passes. I've no idea how you've come to that conclusion. Ødegaard regularly makes defence-splitting passes or lobs that goes through three defenders, which is a far more difficult pass to make than a long ball to Rashford who has acres of space to run into. Maddison made some incredible defence-splitting passes against Liverpool as well.

Arsenal play as a cohesive unit. Our players are coached into giving Bruno the ball. They have no confidence in themselves and rely on him to create. It's not organised or team play. It's a chaotic mess. When you are given the ball more often, you also attempt more passes. He has created one more big chance than Maddison. Impressive. Very nice. Let's see his assists.

my god, you're a piece of work...

 

[Rood]

To put it mildly. Same with pass completion. I don't think 69% vs 77% pass completion is a huge concern for a team so long as that's happening in advanced areas of the pitch. What is an unacceptable risk is a player whose passing is scattergun in deep areas of the pitch. Rodri's pass completion is 94.8%. Declan Rice is 92.4%. Casemiro is 81.4%. Anyone who thinks Bruno losing possession cheaply is the biggest cross this team has to bear is really missing the point.

Bruno's low PA% (as your stats show, he is lower than comparable players) and whether his G/A output makes up for it is a long term dilemma - this season clearly he isnt making up for it but it is early on TBF

Casemiro was outstanding last year but obviously not started this year well (his long term PA is more around 85%) - I think most of that is down to the change in midfield system which is asking too much of him, especially with a 2nd string defence behind him

 

[PoTMS]

He's a good player but my God, when he's shit, he's absolutely appalling. Unfortunately for us, he's been crap for a while. If he's our main man going forward, we're not winning anything of note.

 

[NZT-One]

They will quote you on this, or respond to it. One thing I've noted here fanboy always respond to post which doesn't put them to task and need a verifiable response.

Bruno is the cause of why, we play Hollywood football, chaotic football, unsustainable football, outdated football which can't be elevated. It's inch perfect to when he arrived and made main man. Even Rashford and Casemiro have now become Hollywood footballers.

Other teams with no Hollywood football score more goals than us. Surprise surprise.
Other teams with no chaotic footballers win PL & CL but for us it's United DNA bullshit.

Many may ask, is it Bruno effect only which has brought all this..

Let me leave you with this analogy.

Lock a pastor and prostitute in a closed room for 1 week. After 1 week I can guarantee you, one of them will convert the other. I'm sure you know who will convert the other.

Bruno has converted all our play to his vision. Sadly.

What a weird post. Do you really believe, this is helping the debate? Scapegoating is BS. Take Bruno out of this team and most of the issues will stay there. One player converted our style to his vision...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bruno's low PA% (as your stats show, he is lower than comparable players) and whether his G/A output makes up for it is a long term dilemma - this season clearly he isnt making up for it but it is early on TBF

Casemiro was outstanding last year but obviously not started this year well - I think most of that is down to the change in midfield system which is asking too much of him, especially with a 2nd string defence behind him

The rot started last year though. He had an outstanding spell, mid-season, but started and ended the season not playing well at all.

I just don’t understand why he’s so adventurous on the ball. I don’t think he was like that at Real and it’s causing us all sorts of problems. And don’t get me started on what a disaster it is to have a DM who picks and chooses when he’ll track runners into our box…

 

[NZT-One]

The rot started last year though. He had an outstanding spell, mid-season, but started and ended the season not playing well at all.

I just don’t understand why he’s so adventurous on the ball. I don’t think he was like that at Real and it’s causing us all sorts of problems. And don’t get me started on what a disaster it is to have a DM who picks and chooses when he’ll track runners into our box…

He didn't do it at Real because there wasn't the need to. Enough ballers around him in Ramos, Carvajal and obviously Kroos and Modric. I think, he is trying to help the team but the organisation is bad. I'd also have him play more like a sole DM. But that puts more emphasis on his midfield partners and if opponents try to block that pivot, the emphasis is on the fullbacks. So good chances that the effect of it will be limited.

 

[Rood]

The rot started last year though. He had an outstanding spell, mid-season, but started and ended the season not playing well at all.

I just don’t understand why he’s so adventurous on the ball. I don’t think he was like that at Real and it’s causing us all sorts of problems. And don’t get me started on what a disaster it is to have a DM who picks and chooses when he’ll track runners into our box…

Don't agree with that assessment

And his creative passing was a massive bonus to our play last season, his long term PA is 85% so not that different from Real to United

Like I said, the big issue is ETHs attempt to play a more attacking midfield and leaving Casemiro on his own - we need to go back to last season set up

Anyway this is the Bruno thread!

 

[DJ Jeff]

From well before Ole's time, we've been rubbish at making good choices in the final third. Bruno's a big part of that. Bruno's got unreal talent, but sometimes he gets caught out trying to light a cigarette with a flamethrower. If you've got two choices, A or B, and you always pick A without thinking, you're bound to mess up. You might hit the jackpot once in a while, but you're also setting yourself up for loads of errors. That's what Bruno's doing. He's got to develop a better sense for when to go for those killer passes and when to just keep the ball moving. If we're sticking with ETH's style, then Bruno has got to add some nuance to his game.

Bruno is 29 he's not going to change. The sad fact is this club will never win anything major with him and Rashford as first names on the team sheet.

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Bruno is 29 he's not going to change. The sad fact is this club will never win anything major with him and Rashford as first names on the team sheet.

Maybe.

I do think a lot of his eagerness to play that killer pass is due to the fact he's basically been the only "midfielder" able to make a forward pass for most of his time here and, as obvious as it sounds, if we had more quality around him he would be doing a lot better. Keane's recent comments about us being the "new Spurs" are spot on imo, we have a couple of real quality players and then a lot of very average ones when compared to our glory days when we had basically elite quality in most positions and the "average" players ran through brick walls.

Anyway we are stuck between a rock and a hard place, drop him and then what? Well we cause another media shitstorm for the club because ETH would be dropping his captain, then they'd probably bring up the whole Maguire thing and question his decisions. On the pitch we lose our most creative player on the chance that we might improve our decision making in the final third. Bruno's replacement is probably Mount who I've actually been impressed with, however, it has been noticeable that any chances that he gets he fluffs and I can only remember one pass in which he opened up a defence, so I'm not sure he is the answer.

 

[Hammondo]

my god, you're a piece of work...

He's right though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He's right though.

Is he feck. Progressive/vertical passes are inherently more difficult to complete than non progressive passes. No matter which team you play for. Anyone who’s ever kicked a ball on a football pitch knows this.

 

[lex talionis]

The only defensible rationale for the buy of Mount was the planned phaseout of Bruno, which is not a terrible idea.

Bruno has his hero moments but he’s far too erratic. It’s not a bug; it’s a feature.

 

[Ayoba]

Now that the goals and assists have dried up, the only guarantee with Bruno is that he will have a terrible game against any of the big teams.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Now that the goals and assists have dried up, the only guarantee with Bruno is that he will have a terrible game against any of the big teams.

By "goals have dried up" do you actually mean "most recent player to score in the league for us"?

 

[Ayoba]

By "goals have dried up" do you actually mean "most recent player to score in the league for us"?

No, I actually mean that he socrrd 18 goals 3 years ago, then just 10 and last season 8.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, I actually mean that he socrrd 18 goals 3 years ago, then just 10 and last season 8.

8-10 goals per season for a player in his position is fine (the 18 was an outlier, because that was in a season when Manchester United were actually awarded penalties)

 

[zaafi]

my god, you're a piece of work...

Is he feck. Progressive/vertical passes are inherently more difficult to complete than non progressive passes. No matter which team you play for. Anyone who’s ever kicked a ball on a football pitch knows this.

I meant to say progressive distance passing doesn't necessarily mean risky passing, as you claimed. You said that we know Bruno attempts more risky passes because his progressive passing distance far exceeds Ødegaard and other players, but what is the correlation between progressive distance and difficulty exactly?

 

[Oldyella]

The only defensible rationale for the buy of Mount was the planned phaseout of Bruno, which is not a terrible idea.

Bruno has his hero moments but he’s far too erratic. It’s not a bug; it’s a feature.

If the long term plan was to phase him out (which I agree with) why make him captain?

 

[Toddler]

Nice selective use of stats there. Being dribbled past that many times is not good but he's tackled more players than Declan Rice has, winning more tackles than Rodri, Szobozlai, Palhinha and Caicedo (as well as, by a big margin, Odegaard and Madisson).

Absolutely, I selected the stats that are worrisome. I feel like we need to try and see how it feels and works without him. I'm pretty sure we will see a better team on the ball without him (we need to better on this). Do we have enough creativity without him? I don't know. We haven't really ever tried without Bruno, would not hurt at this point.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I love how people automatically assume we just won't have any sort of creative ability with Bruno on the bench, when we've never fecking found out for ourselves over any set period of time since he's been here. He's basically played every game, and in the majority of those games attempts to act as the solo creator.

It's just bizarre how after 4 years many still think that people calling for him to be sold/dropped are lunatics when we've never actually managed to have any sort of sustained success with him. Like I'd get it if we won the league or were one of the best teams in the world with him leading us, but we've never even been close to that. Building a squad around a player who demands so much of the ball yet is so inefficient in his actions is risky, yet we've not only done it for 4 years with very little overall success but we have people who want us to continue doing it.

It's fine though, he'll start this weekend and probably bag an assist or a goal and we'll do this whole stupid cycle all over again.

 

[Toddler]

I love how people automatically assume we just won't have any sort of creative ability with Bruno on the bench, when we've never fecking found out for ourselves over any set period of time since he's been here. He's basically played every game, and in the majority of those games attempts to act as the solo creator.

It's just bizarre how after 4 years many still think that people calling for him to be sold/dropped are lunatics when we've never actually managed to have any sort of sustained success with him. Like I'd get it if we won the league or were one of the best teams in the world with him leading us, but we've never even been close to that. Building a squad around a player who demands so much of the ball yet is so inefficient in his actions is risky, yet we've not only done it for 4 years with very little overall success but we have people who want us to continue doing it.

It's fine though, he'll start this weekend and probably bag an assist or a goal and we'll do this whole stupid cycle all over again.

I agree with you hundred percent.

 

[peridigm]

Starting to think ETH is working on phasing him out similar to the way he did with Maguire. If poor results continue, I suspect he will be dropped soon. It would be easier to get him back to his best but ETH does not appear to be capable of that.