Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[The Corinthian]

I honestly don't think we have much say in the matter anymore. 'We' destroyed ourselves and our position in the world fighting ourselves. The US and Israel will do what they do no matter what a few failing former empires in Europe think about it.

I'm referencing the creation of the state of Israel in 1947 - it stemmed from European guilt over what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany (although there had been a Zionist agenda that preceded that).

Genuine answer, an ongoing advert for why no one should follow any religion and it certainly should have no influence in politics.

The idea that guilt had anything to do with the creation of Israel is naive though - commercial and political gain are always the main drivers and this situation now is a knock on effect from the long battles between the great European empires of old.

I've mentioned previously in this thread on how framing this as a religious dispute isn't accurate (although undoubtedly a factor) and how it is more on land and geography. There is a sizeable orthodox Jewish movement for the removal of the state of Israel, there are evangelical Christians for the state of Israel, there are Palestinian Christians that are erased from the discourse, as well as Israeli Arabs that are pushing for a 2 state solution.

The guilt point still stands though and although I agree there will always be commercial and political gain from the reshaping of the world in WW1 & 2, the overall message was that land that wasn't theirs to give was given to the Jewish diaspora at the expense of the native civilisation. So again, it goes back to my original question on why Palestinians should pay the price for European guilt.

Is there a need for a Jewish state?

In my lifetime I've seen Jews blamed for everything from wealth inequality to genocide to the proliferation of blacked, cuckold and sissy hypnotism porn online. There is an irrational attitude towards Jewish people and having a safe harbour is needed, in my view.

I don't think you're asking the right question or drawing the right conclusion here.

Should Jewish people be allowed to live free of harm? Of course.
Is the right of a Jew greater than that of a Palestinian? Of course not.
If a Jewish state needed to be created due to genocide on European soil, why should it come at the expense of people unconnected to WW2?

 

[That_Bloke]

They lost their empires, if you want to be more specific.

There is no easy solution. There is an "only solution". Withdraw entirely from the WB, ensure PA can govern, without intentional undercutting/undermining, and then use the Arab League to pressure the Palestinians to hold up to their end (with Russia/China keeping Iranian proxies in check). The hard part is that requires Israel to actually withdraw from a series of illegal settlements which includes much of Jerusalem. That is the only peace deal to be had here. All else will fail.

Everything not in red, in WB, is precisely why Fatah has lost ground via intentional Israeli undermining of the PA's mandate to exist/govern. It can take 12 hours, or days, to go from one part of the WB, north, say, to another (south). That is not any kind of reasonable outcome of the Oslo accords or any negotiations thereafter. It's apartheid.

You can't have a viable state that is so geographically divided. It was never going to happen and it never will. Palestine is bound to disappear.

 

[The Corinthian]

What about the Egyptians? What's their responsibility in this?

Sisi's Israeli backed-coup happened.

IDF General: Israel Behind Coup That Installed Al-Sisi Dictatorship in Egypt (mintpressnews.com)

 

[The Corinthian]

Yes and no. The two conflicts/wars are not synonymous. One marked difference is that Ukraine does not have as its end goal the total annihilation of Russia as a physical entity. On the contrary it is rather Russia that implies that Ukraine has no right to exist.

That's inaccurate. PA have recognised Israel and are for a 2 state solution.

And the reality is - Netanyuhu's government wants the removal of Palestinians by any means necessary from the land and for Israel to expand into a Greater Israel. Strikingly similar as to how Russia are behaving.

 

[africanspur]

Still, Gaza is being bombarded, a ground invasion is coming, and the only Arab country that can provide any form of relief isn't willing to open its borders.

I understand that they don't want 2.5 million refugees permanently making Egypt their home, but where's their compassion?



Israel as a matter of policy does not. However, a lot of people within the knesset believe that Israel can never be safe as long as Palestine exists.

I don't really know how to say this again without virtually rolling my eyes to be honest.

The current president (Sisi) massacred >1000 Egyptians in a single day in a protest that was not violent at any point. Even other generals who have suggested they are considering running against him for president in the last 2 elections were imprisoned/ thrown out of the UAE (where they were staying at the time). In the last election, when he realised this was going to lead to a ridiculous situation where he was the only one running in a system he likes to pretend is a democracy, they nominated a random nobody at the last minute who spent the campaign telling people he was going to vote for Sisi. He has crushed all opposition in the country, with the opposition either dead, missing or languishing in prison. People fear what they say in the street.

He is building a new capital, with a presidential palace bigger than the White House and a military HQ bigger than the Pentagon (named no so subtly the Octagon), while he goes cap in hand begging the gulf oil states yet again for a loan to buy wheat. Inflation is out of control and they have blocked almost all payments from Egyptian bank accounts outside of Egypt or in non Egyptian currencies. He has devalued the currency massively and will do so again.

He has no compassion for his own people, who he regularly steals from, imprisons and kills. He has stolen the hope of a generation. So yep, he doesn't have compassion for Palestinians in Gaza, beyond what he can (personally) extract from the situation and nobody in the country, civilian, military or religious, has any leverage over him whatsoever.

Can you see how that's different from the situation with Israel?

The one year there was a semblance of a government in Egypt accountable to its people, (as much as I hated them) the border was slowly opening up again.

 

[neverdie]

Palestine is bound to disappear.

Look at the map. There is just a tiny population tilt in Palestinian identification terms among the Occupied WestBank, Gaza, and Israel Proper. If Palestine disappears, where does Israel go? Millions of Palestinian, Palestinan-Israeli, already settled within Israel proper and no room (or space open) to the West, North, South, and only a Sea to the East.

Two million Arabic/Palestinian within Israel proper, and then over five million between Gaza and the West Bank. Just over Israel's 7.1 million Jewish population with Arabic states already complaining, endlessly, about Palestinian refugee camps. There is nowhere for the Palestinians to go. Either two states or perpetual war. Or one state and Israel gives up the Jewish state status.

 

[MackRobinson]

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

That's inaccurate. PA have recognised Israel and are for a 2 state solution.

And the reality is - Netanyuhu's government wants the removal of Palestinians by any means necessary from the land and for Israel to expand into a Greater Israel. Strikingly similar as to how Russia are behaving.

It is not inaccurate. It is a statement of historical fact, continued into the present by Hamas, and the reality of which has had great bearing on the situation we see today. We cannot pretend that this situation occurs in a historical vacuum only when it suits our cause and so that expedient comparisons can be made.

 

[VorZakone]

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

I'd say a war between the 2 is unlikely. Iran's involvement didn't surprise anyone anyway.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I don't really know how to say this again without virtually rolling my eyes to be honest.

The current president (Sisi) massacred >1000 Egyptians in a single day in a protest that was not violent at any point. Even other generals who have suggested they are considering running against him for president in the last 2 elections were imprisoned/ thrown out of the UAE (where they were staying at the time). In the last election, when he realised this was going to lead to a ridiculous situation where he was the only one running in a system he likes to pretend is a democracy, they nominated a random nobody at the last minute who spent the campaign telling people he was going to vote for Sisi. He has crushed all opposition in the country, with the opposition either dead, missing or languishing in prison. People fear what they say in the street.

He is building a new capital, with a presidential palace bigger than the White House and a military HQ bigger than the Pentagon (named no so subtly the Octagon), while he goes cap in hand begging the gulf oil states yet again for a loan to buy wheat. Inflation is out of control and they have blocked almost all payments from Egyptian bank accounts outside of Egypt or in non Egyptian currencies. He has devalued the currency massively and will do so again.

He has no compassion for his own people, who he regularly steals from, imprisons and kills. He has stolen the hope of a generation. So yep, he doesn't have compassion for Palestinians in Gaza, beyond what he can (personally) extract from the situation and nobody in the country, civilian, military or religious, has any leverage over him whatsoever.

Can you see how that's different from the situation with Israel?

The one year there was a semblance of a government in Egypt accountable to its people, (as much as I hated them) the border was slowly opening up again.

Good lord, good post.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

Unlikely, unless the hawks want an excuse to smash Iran for their oil and resources.

 

[Revan]

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

They do not have a land border so I do not think a war is possible. But I expect Israel to do some bombing of Iran (and Iran to attack Israel via Hezbollah and less likely Syria).

 

[Simbo]

One of the major news networks where I live also quoted the @sentdefender Twitter account. It was kind of eye opening to witness that kind of influence from such accounts.

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This in reference to Elon's tweet? Hilarious to see him promoting sentdefender, most rational Ukraine/osint commentator's dismissed him as a Russian propaganda tool long ago.

 

[neverdie]

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

Not going to happen. Iran funds Hezbollah and that's about the extent of it. Israel cannot win a war against what is essentially itself if it comes to that (the millions within Israel proper who are Arabic) and then the factions in Gaza, WB, Lebanon, Syria, and so on. That is impossible for Israel, let alone dealing with Iran at apparently the same time.

 

[Laurencio]

I don't really know how to say this again without virtually rolling my eyes to be honest.

The current president (Sisi) massacred >1000 Egyptians in a single day in a protest that was not violent at any point. Even other generals who have suggested they are considering running against him for president in the last 2 elections were imprisoned/ thrown out of the UAE (where they were staying at the time). In the last election, when he realised this was going to lead to a ridiculous situation where he was the only one running in a system he likes to pretend is a democracy, they nominated a random nobody at the last minute who spent the campaign telling people he was going to vote for Sisi. He has crushed all opposition in the country, with the opposition either dead, missing or languishing in prison. People fear what they say in the street.

He is building a new capital, with a presidential palace bigger than the White House and a military HQ bigger than the Pentagon (named no so subtly the Octagon), while he goes cap in hand begging the gulf oil states yet again for a loan to buy wheat. Inflation is out of control and they have blocked almost all payments from Egyptian bank accounts outside of Egypt or in non Egyptian currencies. He has devalued the currency massively and will do so again.

He has no compassion for his own people, who he regularly steals from, imprisons and kills. He has stolen the hope of a generation. So yep, he doesn't have compassion for Palestinians in Gaza, beyond what he can (personally) extract from the situation and nobody in the country, civilian, military or religious, has any leverage over him whatsoever.

Can you see how that's different from the situation with Israel?

The one year there was a semblance of a government in Egypt accountable to its people, (as much as I hated them) the border was slowly opening up again.

I never conflated the two, nor am I particularly surprised that they are unwilling to do so. I'm simply saying that Egypt has a responsibility to lessen the potential suffering for Gazans as much as the Israelis do.

Edit: To clarify, I mean right now - not that Egypt is as responsible for the situation or how we've come to this situation.

How likely is it that Israel and Iran go to war over this? I'm watching Bloomberg, and an Israeli defense official essentially said Israel are under the impression Iran was involved and they must be dealt with as well.

None. Iran has no interest in ending up in a war with Israel and the US.

 

[The Corinthian]

It is not inaccurate. It is a statement of historical fact, continued into the present by Hamas, and the reality of which has had great bearing on the situation we see today. We cannot pretend that this situation occurs in a historical vacuum only when it suits our cause and so that expedient comparisons can be made.

It's inaccurate because you're presenting a very narrow limited view of the reality.

Do you see any difference between this and what Hamas say? There's more - I just posted a few to make a point.

When you have politicians in the Knesset coming out with this rhetoric, with impunity, then you can understand why Hamas even came into creation - it's a result of Israeli brutality. Hamas didn't even exist before the late 80s.

The Israeli government want to remove Palestinian presence from the land.

 

[africanspur]

I never conflated the two, nor am I particularly surprised that they are unwilling to do so. I'm simply saying that Egypt has a responsibility to lessen the potential suffering for Gazans as much as the Israelis do.

You're making a pointless point.

You suggest again that you are unsurprised 'they' (ie Egypt) are unwilling to help the Palestinians. The insinuation being that even their Arab cousins don't want to help them.

I am trying to explain to you that one man makes decisions in Egypt and he does not make them for Egyptian benefit. He also ceded land to Saudi Arabia, because nobody can touch him, to get more money from the King.

If Egyptians had agency and self determination, the border would be open. If they weren't ruled by a thieving genocidal maniac, seen as a friend by both Israel and the USA, they would be trying to lessen the potential suffering for Gazans.

Unsurprisingly, the man who killed >1000 of his own countrymen on one day, imprisoned tens of thousands more and who tells his citizens to go hungry for some theoretical great future (ie lining his and the generals' pockets), and who actually makes all the decisions, doesn't care about the suffering of the Palestinians.

 

[MackRobinson]

@VorZakone @Murder on Zidane's Floor @Revan @neverdie @Laurencio Thanks

 

[neverdie]

It is not inaccurate. It is a statement of historical fact, continued into the present by Hamas, and the reality of which has had great bearing on the situation we see today. We cannot pretend that this situation occurs in a historical vacuum only when it suits our cause and so that expedient comparisons can be made.

Do you expect Zelensky to recognize the right of Russia to occupy the land it currently occupies? I.e., will it - Ukraine - acknowledge and accept Russia's existence within those occupied regions. No. It will concede, most likely, x amount of territory, with the aim of gaining it back over time. But it's not going to come out and say "we recognize the existence of an occupying force within Ukraine [and thus its legitimacy as occupier]". Hamas are more extreme than Fatah, yes, but that's what it amounts to if you go back through the history (not that distant). Fatah accepted Israeli right within Israel proper, but not within the WB, to "exist". Israel, meanwhile, went about dismantling all land held by the PA, via Fatah, thereafter. So you hear "we don't accept the right of Israel to exist" and it is, and sounds, extreme. But what else do you expect? It's the first question Western news outlets lead with because it's an intentional factional trap. They know it and have been doing it for decades. Hamas doesn't expect Israel to cease existing but it's not, as an armed resistance/whatever group, going to come out and say we accept the right of Israel to exist within occupied Palestinian territory. Take a look at Gaza and see how long Hamas would last if, even symbolically, they made that gesture given Fatah already did and received absolutely nothing but loss of land and no Western action (against Israel's increased occupation over the past twenty years) in response.

The truth, in reality, is that successive Israeli administrations have rejected the right of Palestine as a state (they reject its right to exist) whereas even former hardline Palestinians, post-intifada types, have accepted Israel's right to exist.

The first question they (Western outlets if they were consistent) ought to ask is why Israel (especially this incarnation) doesn't accept the right of Palestine to exist (given the assymetry in power relations over so long a period). But that is never asked. Then, when Israeli spokespeople say "we do", simply point to the map, events over the past 25 years, and independent/human rights reports which, only two/three years ago, confirmed, one coming "internally", Israel as an apartheid state.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It's inaccurate because you're presenting a very narrow limited view of the realityDo you see any difference between this and what Hamas say? There's more - I just posted a few to make a point.

When you have politicians in the Knesset coming out with this rhetoric, with impunity, then you can understand why Hamas even came into creation - it's a result of Israeli brutality. Hamas didn't even exist before the late 80s.

The Israeli government want to remove Palestinian presence from the land.

I am not presenting any limited view. You are. Absolutely there are factions within the Israeli government who would like to see the total destruction of Palestine. Certainly Netenyahu would be happy if it bled to death. It is you, however, who seems intent on pretending this conflict started with the ascension of Netanyahu, rather than Netanyahu being a current product of a much larger history in which the right of Israel to exist and the desire to see it expunged from the Earth has played a primary role.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I've mentioned previously in this thread on how framing this as a religious dispute isn't accurate (although undoubtedly a factor) and how it is more on land and geography. There is a sizeable orthodox Jewish movement for the removal of the state of Israel, there are evangelical Christians for the state of Israel, there are Palestinian Christians that are erased from the discourse, as well as Israeli Arabs that are pushing for a 2 state solution.

The guilt point still stands though and although I agree there will always be commercial and political gain from the reshaping of the world in WW1 & 2, the overall message was that land that wasn't theirs to give was given to the Jewish diaspora at the expense of the native civilisation. So again, it goes back to my original question on why Palestinians should pay the price for European guilt.

I randomly wrote a paper on the same region albeit from a millennia before with a similar theme, how the Crusades were not actually a religious war for the decision makers in Europe but an economic one, so I do understand the reasoning here and agree. We can take the religion point to a different thread but I'm not framing it as solely a religious conflict, that is just an added huge problem and just demonstrates all the flaws with thinking there is such a thing as a holy site or land 'promised' by a made up God. For example, for argument's sake let's say the British had decided to give a random Arabic people the same swathes of land, there'd probably have been a load of fighting still (I mean point to an area of the world there are neighbors fighting wars) even though in this scenario there is at least a somewhat comparable religion.

I don't really get your guilt point though, I haven't seen anything that points to this as a major factor. Maybe if it was an Axis power who created the state of Israel I'd agree but I don't think the British (or most of Europe sadly) had that as a driving factor. A more cynical view would be almost the opposite of guilt, there remained a large amount of anti semitism in Europe and creating a state outside of Europe would be very favourable for people of that belief.

On the fact that already occupied land was taken from a people and given to another, what we see today is the only real outcome. If you knew nothing about Israel/Palestine and someone described the high level situation and, more importantly, which countries supported each side, you'd guess it would be an absolute clusterfeck with Israel being the more powerful of the two.

 

[bosnian_red]

Tweet

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Good interview here

 

[Drainy]

Should Jewish people be allowed to live free of harm? Of course.
Is the right of a Jew greater than that of a Palestinian? Of course not.
If a Jewish state needed to be created due to genocide on European soil, why should it come at the expense of people unconnected to WW2?

Because of the historic importance of the region, and the facts on the ground at the time.

The collapse of the British Empire led to land being divided based on various divisions in a few regions.

 

[The Corinthian]

I am not presenting any limited view. You are. Absolutely there are factions within the Israeli government who would like to see the total destruction of Palestine. Certainly Netenyahu would be happy if it bled to death. It is you, however, who seems intent on pretending this conflict started with the ascension of Netanyahu, rather than Netanyahu being a current product of a much larger history in which the right of Israel to exist and the desire to see it expunged from the Earth has played a primary role.

Here's what you wrote:

One marked difference is that Ukraine does not have as its end goal the total annihilation of Russia as a physical entity. On the contrary it is rather Russia that implies that Ukraine has no right to exist.
I was being generous calling this inaccurate when it's incorrect.

You're implying here that Palestinians want the total annihilation of Israel, which is categorically incorrect as has been pointed out to you. The PA recognise Israel and advocate for a 2 state solution, which falls on deaf ears in the Knesset. So it's just a plain misrepresenting of the reality.

The irony being that if you look at what Israeli politicians themselves say about Palestinians, then you realise they aren't that dissimilar from Hamas.

You going on about Netanyuhu, and then right to exists yadda yadda is just moving the goalposts because you were wrong in your initial assertion.

 

[Laurencio]

You're making a pointless point.

You suggest again that you are unsurprised 'they' (ie Egypt) are unwilling to help the Palestinians. The insinuation being that even their Arab cousins don't want to help them.

I am trying to explain to you that one man makes decisions in Egypt and he does not make them for Egyptian benefit. He also ceded land to Saudi Arabia, because nobody can touch him, to get more money from the King.

If Egyptians had agency and self determination, the border would be open. If they weren't ruled by a thieving genocidal maniac, seen as a friend by both Israel and the USA, they would be trying to lessen the potential suffering for Gazans.

Unsurprisingly, the man who killed >1000 of his own countrymen on one day, imprisoned tens of thousands more and who tells his citizens to go hungry for some theoretical great future (ie lining his and the generals' pockets), and who actually makes all the decisions, doesn't care about the suffering of the Palestinians.

You're jumping to conclusions. I have no ill will towards Palestinians and do not equate Hamas with the people of Palestine.

All I'm saying is that I am disappointed to see that Egypt isn't and hasn't been doing what they can to lessen the suffering for Gazans. Nothing more, nothing less. Your explanation as to why is both well explained and logical, but it doesn't lessen my disappointment.

 

[The Corinthian]

Because of the historic importance of the region, and the facts on the ground at the time.

The collapse of the British Empire led to land being divided based on various divisions in a few regions.

The historic importance of the region to whom? Just the Jews? Is it not sacred to Christians and Muslims too? And what are the facts on the ground at the time?

I'm well aware of the land being divided but your rationale doesn't stack up here.

 

[Revan]

The historic importance of the region to whom? Just the Jews? Is it not sacred to Christians and Muslims too? And what are the facts on the ground at the time?

I'm well aware of the land being divided but your rationale doesn't stack up here.

PA recognizes Israel, but Hamas and other jihadist terrorist organizations do not.

Arafat didn’t accept the plan of two-state solution in 2000 despite being very good for Palestinians, considering the power Israel and Palestinians have. He also despite being peaceful, was open in saying that all these deals are temporary and essentially urging Palestinians to wait for when geopolitics change (it might have been just a selling point so people accept peace).

Honestly, this is a mindfeck situation. It is the worst aspect of humanity being drawn together, with no good side. Both sides (with rare exception like part of Jewish diaspora and some Arab Israeli) want their maximalist demands to be satisfied and think that the other side lives do not count at all.

 

[Superden]

The same voices that slammed the russians as being barbaric when they used white phosphorus in attacking places like Bakhmut, I wonder if their feels the same repulsion with Israelis using it in Gaza..

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-barbarity-of-russias-white-phosphorus-attack-on-bakhmut/

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Do you expect Zelensky to recognize the right of Russia to occupy the land it currently occupies? I.e., will it - Ukraine - acknowledge and accept Russia's existence within those occupied regions. No. It will concede, most likely, x amount of territory, with the aim of gaining it back over time. But it's not going to come out and say "we recognize the existence of an occupying force within Ukraine [and thus its legitimacy as occupier]". Hamas are more extreme than Fatah, yes, but that's what it amounts to if you go back through the history (not that distant). Fatah accepted Israeli right within Israel proper, but not within the WB, to "exist". Israel, meanwhile, went about dismantling all land held by the PA, via Fatah, thereafter. So you hear "we don't accept the right of Israel to exist" and it is, and sounds, extreme. But what else do you expect? It's the first question Western news outlets lead with because it's an intentional factional trap. They know it and have been doing it for decades. Hamas doesn't expect Israel to cease existing but it's not, as an armed resistance/whatever group, going to come out and say we accept the right of Israel to exist within occupied Palestinian territory. Take a look at Gaza and see how long Hamas would last if, even symbolically, made that gesture given Fatah already did and received absolutely nothing but loss of land and no Western action (against Israel's increased occupation over the past twenty years) in response.

The truth, in reality, is that successive Israeli administrations have rejected the right of Palestine as a state (they reject its right to exist) whereas even former hardline Palestinians, post-intifada types, have accepted Israel's right to exist.

The first question they (Western outlets if they were consistent) ought to ask is why Israel (especially this incarnation) doesn't accept the right of Palestine to exist (given the assymetry in power relations over so long a period). But that is never asked. Then, when Israeli spokespeople say "we do", simply point to the map, events over the past 25 years, and independent/human rights reports which, only two/three years ago, confirmed, one coming "internally", Israel as an apartheid state.

Of course I don't expect it but nor do I think it is merely an expedient rhetorical point. I think that a sufficiently powerful Ukraine would destroy Russia within the land it currently occupies, but this would not lead to the non-existence of Russia. I think if Hamas, Palestine or any surrounding Arab country had the military capability at any point that we would be talking about Israel in the past tense.

Now, that said, I think that continued Israeli land grabbing and the institution of apartheid has absolutely destroyed Palestine as a viable state.

Again, my point is not that Israel are somehow the goodies, it is that the nature of the Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine conflicts are substantially different.

 

[neverdie]

PA recognizes Israel, but Hamas and other jihadist terrorist organizations do not.

Almost 30 years after the GFA, Sinn Fein still doesn't take up seats in Westminster because it won't accept, symbolically, the legitimacy of British elections on what they deem Irish soil. That's with a substantial peace deal. Now go back 50 years or even 40 and the same things ascribed to Hamas or IJ now were orthodoxy for both SF and hardline Unionists. This isn't some exceptional case. There are precedents everywhere. It's settler-colonialism and two "sides" coming to terms with mutual sharing of a land each declares to be exclusively their own. PA has made those concession and all it received was Israeli incursions into the WB as a result. Islands. Bantustands.

As for Arafat, he rejected a solution which would have rejected itself (by popular Palestnian discontent). There's a good documentary, from the American led intermediary team, which came out recently and even they admit that whilst they blamed Arafat at the time, and wanted it to go through, there was an obvious problem inasmuch as Arafat could sign the accord but then watch the place go up in flames immediately after (it wouldn't have been accepted and most admit that now).

 

[The Corinthian]

PA recognizes Israel, but Hamas and other jihadist terrorist organizations do not.

Arafat didn’t accept the plan of two-state solution in 2000 despite being very good for Palestinians, considering the power Israel and Palestinians have. He also despite being peaceful, was open in saying that all these deals are temporary and essentially urging Palestinians to wait for when geopolitics change (it might have been just a selling point so people accept peace).

Honestly, this is a mindfeck situation. It is the worst aspect of humanity being drawn together, with no good side. Both sides (with rare exception like part of Jewish diaspora and some Arab Israeli) want their maximalist demands to be satisfied and think that the other side lives do not count at all.

Arafat didn't want to lose Al Aqsa, and why would he?

Do you expect Zelensky to recognize the right of Russia to occupy the land it currently occupies? I.e., will it - Ukraine - acknowledge and accept Russia's existence within those occupied regions. No. It will concede, most likely, x amount of territory, with the aim of gaining it back over time. But it's not going to come out and say "we recognize the existence of an occupying force within Ukraine [and thus its legitimacy as occupier]". Hamas are more extreme than Fatah, yes, but that's what it amounts to if you go back through the history (not that distant). Fatah accepted Israeli right within Israel proper, but not within the WB, to "exist". Israel, meanwhile, went about dismantling all land held by the PA, via Fatah, thereafter. So you hear "we don't accept the right of Israel to exist" and it is, and sounds, extreme. But what else do you expect? It's the first question Western news outlets lead with because it's an intentional factional trap. They know it and have been doing it for decades. Hamas doesn't expect Israel to cease existing but it's not, as an armed resistance/whatever group, going to come out and say we accept the right of Israel to exist within occupied Palestinian territory. Take a look at Gaza and see how long Hamas would last if, even symbolically, they made that gesture given Fatah already did and received absolutely nothing but loss of land and no Western action (against Israel's increased occupation over the past twenty years) in response.

The truth, in reality, is that successive Israeli administrations have rejected the right of Palestine as a state (they reject its right to exist) whereas even former hardline Palestinians, post-intifada types, have accepted Israel's right to exist.

The first question they (Western outlets if they were consistent) ought to ask is why Israel (especially this incarnation) doesn't accept the right of Palestine to exist (given the assymetry in power relations over so long a period). But that is never asked. Then, when Israeli spokespeople say "we do", simply point to the map, events over the past 25 years, and independent/human rights reports which, only two/three years ago, confirmed, one coming "internally", Israel as an apartheid state.

Good post.

 

[Drainy]

The historic importance of the region to whom? Just the Jews? Is it not sacred to Christians and Muslims too? And what are the facts on the ground at the time?

I'm well aware of the land being divided but your rationale doesn't stack up here.

The fact that there were a large number of Jewish settlers who would have been at risk as a minority under a new government.

There is a reason the land was divided between groups with Jerusalem intended to be treated differently until after hell inevitably broke out

 

[11101]

Still, Gaza is being bombarded, a ground invasion is coming, and the only Arab country that can provide any form of relief isn't willing to open its borders.

I understand that they don't want 2.5 million refugees permanently making Egypt their home, but where's their compassion?

Allow all the Hamas fighters pretending to be civilians across their border where they can continue their campaign and create trouble for Egypt? Never going to happen.

 

[VorZakone]

European Commission reviewing donations?

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[VorZakone]

Be wary of claims that Hezbollah has gotten involved.

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[VorZakone]

9 Americans died.

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[neverdie]

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[/QUOTE]
If they, the EU, actually acted on any of the hundreds of the also unprecedented "we don't agree with this" moments when Israel intentionally went about extending occupation, we might have been in a better position. The EU, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, somehow, might even be worse than the US because they give the pretense of caring whereas at least everyone knows where the US stands.

Business as usual after the Gaza disaster only two years back? It's some of the most blatant hypocrisy you will ever see. Two different standards and everyone, beyond Western-prisms, understands it perfectly. EU trying to make BDS illegal, or did, I can't even remember, but here they'll punitively act against one of the poorest populations on the planet.

A Jewish American stopped selling Icecream in Israel and the world called him anti-semitic. That's the sort of nonsense which comes from these official channels.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

You're implying here that Palestinians want the total annihilation of Israel, which is categorically incorrect as has been pointed out to you. The PA recognise Israel and advocate for a 2 state solution, which falls on deaf ears in the Knesset. So it's just a plain misrepresenting of the reality.

As you well know the PA carries no weight in Gaza and we know what the stated aims of Hamas are. Absolutely the Knesset is not for a 2 state solution, the current Israeli government is a brutal bunch of fascist bastards. This does not suddenly mean the present exists in a void, nor that Hamas is the equivalent of the Ukrainian army.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Almost 30 years after the GFA, Sinn Fein still doesn't take up seats in Westminster because it won't accept, symbolically, the legitimacy of British elections on what they deem Irish soil. That's with a substantial peace deal. Now go back 50 years or even 40 and the same things ascribed to Hamas or IJ now were orthodoxy for both SF and hardline Unionists. This isn't some exceptional case. There are precedents everywhere. It's settler-colonialism and two "sides" coming to terms with mutual sharing of a land each declares to be exclusively their own. PA has made those concession and all it received was Israeli incursions into the WB as a result. Islands. Bantustands.

As for Arafat, he rejected a solution which would have rejected itself (by popular Palestnian discontent). There's a good documentary, from the American led intermediary team, which came out recently and even they admit that whilst they blamed Arafat at the time, and wanted it to go through, there was an obvious problem inasmuch as Arafat could sign the accord but then watch the place go up in flames immediately after (it wouldn't have been accepted and most admit that now).

Any link to the documentary you've mentioned?

 

[Laurencio]

Allow all the Hamas fighters pretending to be civilians across their border where they can continue their campaign and create trouble for Egypt? Never going to happen.

There are 2.5 million civilians on the Gaza strip. None of which will be unaffected by continously bombing and a full scale ground invasion. It's a nightmare scenario. Someone needs to provide relief and we all know that Israel won't - and you unfortunately can't expect them to considering what Hamas just did.