I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.But Zionist terrorism is? Got it.
I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.But Zionist terrorism is? Got it.
Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel, not just the liberation of Palestine. That's a very important distinction. They aren't interested in coexistence, so their actions should always be seen in light of their ultimate goal.Hamas obviously don’t really care about Palestinians. Nothing in their actions suggest they’re fighting for their people or to make a point. Just indiscriminate murder and torture of civilians, celebrated on camera for the most part. Nothing but bloodlust, all seemingly designed to provoke and enrage Isreal as much as possible. And now thousands more will die as Isreal react, and another generation will be radicalised if they aren’t already.
Without even looking at articles or reports, it is extremely difficult to imagine that among the hundreds of murders and kidnappings there wouldn't also be widespread rape and sexual assault. Especially when you consider the view that Hamas and other fundamentalist Islamist groups have of women.Did you even read the links?
Dunno why you need this all spoonfed anyway. It’s easy to find.
Interesting that they’re going for Rahat, it’s a Bedouin city, largest in Israel, and there have been reports that Hamas have killed a fairly large number there in the last few days. Of course there is a relative lack of bomb shelters there compared to most other Israeli towns.
So if what Israel did was not okay, just like what Hamas did, and Israel is justified in their killing, why aren't Hamas?I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.
Yet here we are. In this weird space where taking a side in the culture war means a refusal to acknowledge any wrongs done by “the other side”, no matter what evidence is available, in case it means ceding even the tiniest sliver of the moral high ground.Without even looking at articles or reports, it is extremely difficult to imagine that among the hundreds of murders and kidnappings there wouldn't also be widespread rape and sexual assault. Especially when you consider the view that Hamas and other fundamentalist Islamist groups have of women.
Did you? I read both articles. Followed the hyper links on the sentences which said "reports". Went to those pages and read those article too.Did you even read the links?
Dunno why you need this all spoonfed anyway. It’s easy to find.
The massacre at the rave is horrific and I don't actually doubt that terrorists would do brutal and horrible things, such as rape, but this widespread coverage detailing a epidemic of rape seems based off a couple of eye witness reports and one, perhaps two videos.Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”
Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.
Probably just the remnants of the initial invasion force that looks for easy prey before getting killed themselves. I don't think there is any other plan left than try to murder as much innocents as possible before going down. Classic terrorist tactic.Interesting that they’re going for Rahat, it’s a Bedouin city, largest in Israel, and there have been reports that Hamas have killed a fairly large number there in the last few days. Of course there is a relative lack of bomb shelters there compared to most other Israeli towns.
There is always retaliation after terrorist strikes, that is much clear.So if you think Israel military action, which is targeting civilian buildings, is justified because they were attacked but don't feel Palestinians were justified after all the attacks and deaths they have faced for decades? Pretty one sided argument.
@owlo I wasn't mentioning you in my post. You see the senselessness in both sides, it's just for those who are silent on Israeli crimes but will always jump on Palestinians retaliating.
Because what they are doing is not the same? Did Israel hunt down 250 youths at a rave?So if what Israel did was not okay, just like what Hamas did, and Israel is justified in their killing, why aren't Hamas?
What Isreal is/was doing was arguably worse.Because what they are doing is not the same? Did Israel hunt down 250 youths at a rave?
I've never thought of the Israel/Palestine conflict to be part of the "culture war", the way I normally think about that term. Isn't this just internet debate? People being dug into their position, looking for whatever pieces of evidence to support it, and refusing to change their mind or back down. It's sort of what you sign up for, when you decide to spend a significant amount of time posting on RedCafe, Reddit, or any other hellscape connected by the interwebs.Yet here we are. In this weird space where taking a side in the culture war means a refusal to acknowledge any wrongs done by “the other side”, no matter what evidence is available, in case it means ceding even the tiniest sliver of the moral high ground.
Let's go down that route then, they are both wrong. Which leaves pure pragmatism, with no morality to consider. With that in mind, how does Hamas' actions benefit Palestinians? Israeli attacks generally have the added effect of containing and repressing Palestinians, destroy infrastructure that can be used against them and instilling a sense of hopelessness and inevitability into the populace, while giving Israeli politicians cover to take more land due to the increased radicalisation. Because of their military's superiority it is also usually a very low risk action.So if what Israel did was not okay, just like what Hamas did, and Israel is justified in their killing, why aren't Hamas?
Grim post.Observing the consequences of Hamas' action, I hope it was worth the day dancing in the street for abusing and murdering kids.
Hamas don't act in the interests of Palestinians, they act in the interest of Hamas. Palestinians are useful pawns. Knowing that, you know that drawing the IDF into Gaza where they stand a good chance to massacre them is a pretty good result whilst the world watches Israel kill civilians.Let's go down that route then, they are both wrong. Which leaves pure pragmatism, with no morality to consider. With that in mind, how does Hamas' actions benefit Palestinians? Israeli attacks generally have the added effect of containing and repressing Palestinians, destroy infrastructure that can be used against them and instilling a sense of hopelessness and inevitability into the populace, while giving Israeli politicians cover to take more land due to the increased radicalisation. Because of their military's superiority it is also usually a very low risk action.
What benefit will Palestinians get from what Hamas is doing?
There is none, no realistic anyways. As long as different religions and its fanatics exist, hatred will breed on both sides. As long as people can't forget about the past and keep preaching about injustice hundreds or even thousands of years ago, hatred will breed. As long as two sides can't agree on one border and stop crossing it, hatred will breed. As long as Iran keeps financing terror, hatred will breed. The next negotiations on this matter are postponed for many years, Iran made sure of it.So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.
Due to Israeli settler activity it's virtually impossible for a Palestinian state to have enough territory to be a functioning state. Gaza is probably going to get militarily occupied and eventually annexed. The fair thing would be for Israel and Palestine to negotiate reasonable borders with Arab league and US support. But that's not going to happen - unfortunately.So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.
The west bank is 3x the size of Singapore/Bahrain....Due to Israeli settler activity it's virtually impossible for a Palestinian state to have enough territory to be a functioning state. Gaza is probably going to get militarily occupied and eventually annexed. The fair thing would be for Israel and Palestine to negotiate reasonable borders with Arab league and US support. But that's not going to happen - unfortunately.
Which would be great if Palestine controlled all of it.The west bank is 3x the size of Singapore/Bahrain....
No Israel didn't target 250 youths, they only killed over 4,000 civilians over the last 15 years though, demolished over 2000 homes, evicted countless more and given the land Palestinians have had for generations to Israelis. Kept over 2 million people in an open air prison where they aren't allowed to leave and have restricted access to food and water. Restricted movements of 3 million more in the West Bank, where they have to go through multiple check points to go from one place to another, even hospitals, are held indefinitely without cause, can be rejected entry into a city without cause and can't go onto certain roads in their own land because they are for Jews only.Because what they are doing is not the same? Did Israel hunt down 250 youths at a rave?
Israel can claim to protect their security - ironically now more than ever. Hamas can't say the same about their attack.
Yeah but Israel does undermine the integrity of West Bank by taking land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank so while obviously there is 'enough land', it's hard to have stability due to that.The west bank is 3x the size of Singapore/Bahrain....
“Internet arguing” is basically the basis for the whole culture war, isn’t it? And I do think there’s a difference between reasonable discussion/debate and the sort of rigid and entrenched stance I was alluding to. Which comes from spending way too much time doing “internet arguing” aka participating in the culture war.I've never thought of the Israel/Palestine conflict to be part of the "culture war", the way I normally think about that term. Isn't this just internet debate? People being dug into their position, looking for whatever pieces of evidence to support it, and refusing to change their mind or back down. It's sort of what you sign up for, when you decide to spend a significant amount of time posting on RedCafe, Reddit, or any other hellscape connected by the interwebs.
IDF spokesman for the international media Richard Hecht said that 1500 bodies of Hamas members were found in Israeli territory in recent days, when the army regained relative control of the border with the Gaza Strip.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I’m the world’s worst expert on geopolitics but any hope of long term peace would have to be in a world where both of them are no longer in power? As it stands, their goals are mutually exclusive. So reconciliation is impossible.So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.
I'm not disagreeing with you, you're stating the obvious. Western hypocrisy is a real thing. But it seems to me intellectually dishonest to overcorrect for that and pretend as if the West does nothing good so whatsoever and happily ignores "extermination" of a group. And I had to call that particular post out.And I am very glad we did that, and a whole bunch of other nice things. The problem is just that when you swear by universalist values and act like your whole political world revolve around them, it's simply not enough to occasionally do the 'right' thing as we ourselves have defined it.
There is simply no defence for Israels landgrabbing over the last however many decades within this framework we pretend to live by. They're doing exactly what this rules based order is supposed to prevent, and all we can muster is an occasional stern word! I understand why they do what they do and why we react like we react, but jesus is it pathetic compared to who we are pretending to be.
I just wish we'd get real one way or the other. Maybe then we'll get some praise for the nice things we do, instead of just constantly showing off the discrepancy between our words and actions to the rest of the world. Anyway, I realize it's a borderline irrational rant, and the last word is yours if you want it
Can you name ways in which Palestinians have it better now? If not, then "not with senseless terrorism" would be my answer.How exactly are they supposed to respond to this then?
Everything you post is 100% correct. Is anyone doing what you’re accusing them of though? Here? On redcafe?Two things to consider:
- Far far far more Palestinians people have been killed compares to Israeli in the last few years in these conflicts.
- Israel has arguably been committing apartheid against Palestinians
Its not as if everything was great before the Hamas attack, Palestinians were fighting for survival everyday, and living as second class citizens anyway. Cant expect to systematically oppress and colonize, and then be surprised that they are not rolling over. The framing of it all as just Israel fighting back against terrorism, is very wrong.
Pinning the whole blame of the situation in Gaza on Hamas, intentionally ignores the whole context of the Israel's subjugation of Palestine beforehand.
Maybe I misinterpreted this, but that's what it seemed to imply.I don't think anyone is blaming Hamas for the conditions in Gaza.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Observing the consequences of Hamas' action, I hope it was worth the day dancing in the street for abusing and murdering kids.
Don't try to dodge the question, tell me what you think Palestinians should have done that's justifiable to you if you think what Israel is doing is justified.Can you name ways in which Palestinians have it better now? If not, then "not with senseless terrorism" would be my answer.
Target the Israeli military, instead of civilians?Don't try to dodge the question, tell me what you think Palestinians should have done that's justifiable to you if you think what Israel is doing is justified.
I wouldn't say so, no. Internet arguing could be about anything. Whether Star Trek or Star Wars is superior, whether Pochettino is the second coming of Christ, because his xG is much better than his actual results, or indeed about geopolitics like this thread.“Internet arguing” is basically the basis for the whole culture war, isn’t it? And I do think there’s a difference between reasonable discussion/debate and the sort of rigid and entrenched stance I was alluding to. Which comes from spending way too much time doing “internet arguing” aka participating in the culture war.
Yeah, I know. Me, of all people, looking down my nose at internet arguing…
That would be the obvious answerTarget the Israeli military, instead of civilians?
Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.What Isreal is/was doing was arguably worse.
It's an observation of the consequences of Hamas' terror, nothing more. Or does anyone think Gaza would look like in this video today without Hamas' barbarism?Maybe I misinterpreted this, but that's what it seemed to imply.