Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Pogue Mahone]

What is the point of UN peacekeeping forces if in a conflict like this they cannot intervene (basically ever, except to run schools and hospitals)?

What would that intervention you ask for look like?

 

[RedTiger]

I know there's a long history between Israel and Palestine, but my clueless wife asked me to tell her what it is in no more than 7 words.

I failed. Could you do it?

"Israel steals land, pallys can't do shit.

 

[neverdie]

What would that intervention you ask for look like?

Temporary troops along the Gazan border. And within.

It has to be raised to issue number one at the security council. What follows is going to be a bloodbath. It already has been.

 

[owlo]

Brutal and heartbreaking. Don't watch if you want to be happy.

Spoiler

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Tweet

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[Revan]

What is the point of UN peacekeeping forces if in a conflict like this they cannot intervene (basically ever, except to run schools and hospitals)?

UN is a worthless organization, and any conflict only reinforces it. Not only when major powers are involved, but in every conflict, even if a small one between not strong countries, UN cannot do much.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Brutal and heartbreaking. Don't watch if you want to be happy.

Spoiler

I've enjoyed reading your posts but please refrain from posting this content in the thread.

There is enough horrific clips in circulation on twitter that people can see.

 

[Laurencio]

American leadership and initiative seems needed here. No one else has the geopolitical weight to get a peaceful solution moving. But the US is staunchly pro-Israel.

It would take years of political maneuvering to move the political opinion the right way even at the best of times. After something like this there's just no chance of any US political leader doing so without committing political suicide.

Exactly. The whole world seems to sympathize with one side over the other, while the reality is that there are innocent casualties on both sides. The media is a main factor in that.

I for one am deeply saddned by what Gazans are being subjected to and what they will now face because of a stupid and counter-productive terrorist action. I am also saddened about what happened to innocent Israelis. You can do both.

What is the point of UN peacekeeping forces if in a conflict like this they cannot intervene (basically ever, except to run schools and hospitals)?

Asked every UN peacekeeping solider ever. It's a fundemental problem with the idea.

 

[golden_blunder]

American leadership and initiative seems needed here. No one else has the geopolitical weight to get a peaceful solution moving. But the US is staunchly pro-Israel.

For the sake of humanity, we need someone to make the first move and step outside their comfort zone. But being politicians first, they will no doubt follow the financial backing of their parties. Depressing

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Temporary troops along the Gazan border. And within.

It has to be raised to issue number one at the security council. What follows is going to be a bloodbath. It already has been.

You think that would make any difference?

 

[11101]

Israel have hardly tried to avoid civilian Palestinian casualties, even before this latest Hamas attack.

They do but when the military targets are being hidden in civilian buildings its never going to end well. They're not developing and buying precision weaponry to waste it all on housing estates.

Obviously that's probably changed now.

 

[kafta]

I for one am deeply saddned by what Gazans are being subjected to and what they will now face because of a stupid and counter-productive terrorist action. I am also saddened about what happened to innocent Israelis. You can do both.

Agreed. That is the only position i agree with on this.

 

[Mogget]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

Ah this old chestnut.

What's morally worse? Intentionally killing 1000 civilians or "accidentally" killing 5000?

 

[BarstoolProphet]

I think you are being over optimistic and naive my friend.


Qatar itself is their staunch ally and a big Muslim brotherhood supporter. Remember how Qataris would banish and ban Iranian fans with “Women Life Freedom” shirts or Lion & Sun flags entering stadium at the World Cup at the height of the Iran protests last year.

I trust the Saudis a million times more than Qataris

Yeah, Qatar is still the main ally of Iran in the region, and also the biggest supporter of Hamas behind Iran in the region. Whilst both KSA and UAE stayed silent/called for restraint, Qatar officially blamed Israel for the attacks. On the surface it has actually looked like the region was starting to become more stable, with diplomatic relations being forged led by none other than MBS himself, but you always get the feeling that things could ignite any day. Not surprised that the proposed historical deal between KSA and Israel would kickstart some real tension again.

 

[owlo]

I've enjoyed reading your posts but please refrain from posting this content in the thread.

There is enough horrific clips in circulation on twitter that people can see.

I did spoiler and warn. I'm always torn with these, but sometimes end up posting them as it speaks better for the emotional state of the population than my meaningless words. It puts people into a position where you can understand the helplessness and rage, and feelings of revenge. There's value to seeing the crushed buildings and terrible life in gaza too, for the same reasons.

Words are just backs and forth between Palestinian supporters and Israeli supporters who draw most of their empathy for a single side. Videos like this cut through that.

 

[neverdie]

You think that would make any difference?

Depends on the SC. If it were substantial enough it would/could make all the difference between a full-blown massacre and limited exchanges until it cools down.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I don't think Israel would be justified to hit civilian buildings just for the sake of killing civilians. But I suspect with Hamas the lines between civilian buildings and non-civilian buildings will get blurred. So I don't think a bomb hitting a civilian building is necessarily the same as civilians being massacred down point blank.

That's a very convinent excuse for them when they don't allow anyone to leave the area they are heavily bombing. It's hilarious that Bibi told civilians to leave knowing fully well that aren't allowed to (unless they want to try swim across the sea, whereby they'll probably be shot at by Israeli ships). They know very well a lot of innocent people will be killed and are perfectly fine with it, even extending it by not allowing any movement for those who want to leave (not to even mention the additional restrictions on food, electricity that will kill more innocent people). That's very little difference to what Hamas did.

 

[Enigma_87]

So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.

Gaza strip probably needs to be annexed. Palestinian people need to have their own territory of course and a newly form Palestinian settlement IMO should be formed where the west bank currently is. That means internationally recognized borders and all.

The Gaza strip can't exist as a exclave, this has been proven historically and there will always be strikes from both sides where mostly the civilians suffer.

I know the historical importance of the territory but there's no way the exclave can exist in the future without military conflicts every 10 years or so.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

I sometimes feel angry with myself for being more and more numb to humanitarian crisis in conflict areas throughout the years, but seeing this genuinely brought me to tears at work. I couldn't even imagine myself with my kids in a situation like this. This is what should flood the international news, not the back and forth geopolitical nonsense that deflect the attention from the real suffering. What's sickening is that it looks like we are so far away from a solution to this extremely complicated conflict that it feels like we have to accept that the suffering will continue indefinitely.

 

[kafta]

Not true. I can’t speak for the whole world, obviously, but I’m seeing a huge amount of sympathy for the residents of Gaza in all the mainstream media I’m exposed to (UK and Irish mainly)

Of course, when these brutal actions are unfolding, some of the people all around the world will sympathize with residents of Gaza.

But i meant that not enough is said or done about the inhumane conditions in Gaza, and the violations of Palestinians rights, the taking of homes and killing of journalists and innocents in times of "peace". It is in those times that i would like to see a global campaign to support Palestine. Civilians on both sides deserve our sympathy, not only when an all out war breaks out.

 

[11101]

Ah this old chestnut.

What's morally worse? Intentionally killing 1000 civilians or "accidentally" killing 5000?

Wouldn't be a question if you didn't have people firing rockets from hospitals. They're the ones who are most to blame for the unintentional civilian casualties. They are also usually the ones to blame for the intentional killings.

 

[neverdie]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

Israel is the most the condemnded nation in the history of the UN.* It has had one resolution stick against it that I can remember and that was torn up immediately after (no more settlements after being officially declared illegal in 2016). Hamas launches terror attack, and is immediately sanctioned. OK. Israel is about to respond with a terror attack, no matter what you call it, and where will the sanctions be?


*Understand how difficult that is, to be the most condemned, and least acted against, in modern political history.

 

[Ragnar123]

To me what Hamas have done that is most evil is to kill those Israeli civilians with the intention of provoking this response. They were hoping to see bombs rain down on Gaza today. That’s their goal. As part of a broader power grab in the region. That’s the most fecked up thing here.

Exactly. I don't get it in my head how people can support an organization that provokes bombs on their heads. It's like visiting the zoo and asking the zoo keeper to open the tiger's cage, because you hate the tiger. Self-preservation is usually the first thing in a human mind, but it's seems completely missing here.

 

[Ragnar123]

"Hamas has fulfilled the goals of its operation in Israel and is ready for dialogue", - Hamas member Musa Abu Marzouk in an interview with Al-Jazeera

They know exactly that Israel won't negotiate after what they've done. They learned that kind of propaganda from Russia.

 

[neverdie]

I don't get it in my head how people can support an organization that provokes bombs on their heads

Hamas or the Israeli state? They tried a peaceful walk along Gaza in 2018 and were sniped to pieces. Journalists too. Some people seem to be aware that the conflict exists when it explodes. Then all we hear is terrorist this, and whatever that. The Israeli state is a terrorist state and Hamas are terrorists. There's precious little difference, except capacity in weaponry, between them (the most extreme Israeli and most extreme Hamas soldier).

 

[RedTiger]

American leadership and initiative seems needed here. No one else has the geopolitical weight to get a peaceful solution moving. But the US is staunchly pro-Israel.

We'll all be shocked in a couple of weeks when China brokers the deal.

 

[Beachryan]

Harvard students blame ‘apartheid regime’ for Israel-Gaza war, alumni react
A coalition of 34 Harvard University student organisations has issued a pro-Palestinian statement in reaction to the continuing Israel-Gaza war, prompting outrage from the university’s prominent alumni.
The students of the most influential university in United States politics said in the statement published on Monday that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” between the Palestinians and Israelis following decades of occupation, adding that “the apartheid regime is the only one to blame”.
The organisations signing the letter included Muslim and Palestinian support groups as well as others named for a variety of backgrounds including the Harvard Jews for Liberation and the African American Resistance Organization.
Prominent Harvard University alumni on Monday denounced the pro-Palestinian statement and urged the university to take action against the signatories.
Read the story here.

So do these esteemed students not believe that Hamas have personal agency? 'Entirely responsible'. Shock that 34 wide-eyed, likely sheltered kids (and I speak from experience) from across the world have a myopic view of things. We should definitely pay attention to them.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Isreal treat civilian casualties as acceptable collateral damage, partly due to the fact that Hamas position themselves around vulnerable civilian infrastructure. It’s unfortunate, but there is a distinction between accepting civilian casualties and outright seeking them out. If Israeli soldiers started purposely gunning down women and children and claiming victory, I suspect world opinion would shift very quickly. And who knows, maybe that will be the case when they go in.

They do but when the military targets are being hidden in civilian buildings its never going to end well. They're not developing and buying precision weaponry to waste it all on housing estates.

Obviously, there is an element of collateral damage from Hamas essentially using civilians as human shields, and Israel accepting that as collateral. But there has definitely also been an element of disregard for what and where they bomb, that goes beyond that. It's pretty easy to find examples of that by simply searching for it. One example, was the shelling of the UNRWA schools that didn't just kill civilian Palestinians, but also 10 UN staff. There is also the general use of excessive force and disproportionate retaliation (i.e., kid throws rock at armoured vehicle, kid gets shot).

Yes, Israel do not indiscriminately kill hundreds of civilians like Hamas just did, but I simply don't think you can claim that Israel generally tries to avoid civilians casualties. They don't care about that one bit.

 

[RedC]

People on here love to play armchair generals.

It's hilarious to read all the bastions of logic, most of them seemingly from oppressor countries(not too surprised with that), debate why Palestinians may have allowed Hamas to grow, or whatever the case may be, why Hamas has done what it has done(which is horrific).

As if being oppressed out of existence wouldn't cause people to make bad decisions, do and support things and people they would never dream of, if they lead normal lives.

The Israeli state, from a position of huge power and supremacy, indiscriminately kills civilians without giving a shite, but when the side with zero power and influence resorts to awful things, they are the ones that are animals and barbarians.

Who's worse, someone with power that does something because they want to, or someone with nothing that does something because they feel they have no other option?

It's a great study in how the role your country plays/has played in the world influences your opinion on conflicts played out between others. The oppressor narrative is baked into a lot of people's heads from being taught their one-sided national history for their entire lives, and they relate to the side of Israel.

 

[Laurencio]

That's a very convinent excuse for them when they don't allow anyone to leave the area they are heavily bombing. It's hilarious that Bibi told civilians to leave knowing fully well that aren't allowed to (unless they want to try swim across the sea, whereby they'll probably be shot at by Israeli ships). They know very well a lot of innocent people will be killed and are perfectly fine with it, even extending it by not allowing any movement for those who want to leave (not to even mention the additional restrictions on food, electricity that will kill more innocent people). That's very little difference to what Hamas did.

Israel is challenging Egypt to open the Rafha crossing. They probably want Gazans to flee and to annex the area without having to deal with Palestinian civilians. Their tactics suggest a full on ground invasion with the goal of militarily controlling the strip. They want to prevent Gaza from being a staging ground for any more attacks, something they can only do if they fully control the area.

They also want to dismantle Hamas, but Hamas' leadership isn't in Gaza, so that will be down to Mossad to deal with in the coming years.

 

[reelworld]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

would that before or after they sidewinder kids playing footy on the beach, destroying AP headquarters, killing journalist or medics?

 

[The Corinthian]

I sometimes feel angry with myself for being more and more numb to humanitarian crisis in conflict areas throughout the years, but seeing this genuinely brought me to tears at work. I couldn't even imagine myself with my kids in a situation like this. This is what should flood the international news, not the back and forth geopolitical nonsense that deflect the attention from the real suffering. What's sickening is that it looks like we are so far away from a solution to this extremely complicated conflict that it feels like we have to accept that the suffering will continue indefinitely.

I became a father for the first time (around 11 months ago...baby girl) and the video broke me.

I agree with you 100% - the human suffering is almost brushed aside and we have to see war fetishists (in this thread!) talk about 'retaliation', 'razing Gaza', 'reduce it to rubble' instead. We live in a strange world in even stranger times.

 

[The Corinthian]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

You have impeccable timing -

Afghanistan: UK special forces 'killed 9 people in their beds' - BBC News

UK special forces killed nine people "in their beds" during an Afghanistan night raid, an independent inquiry has heard.
Family members say the victims were unarmed civilians. The SAS had claimed they acted in self-defence.
Senior officers suspected troops of carrying out a policy of executing "fighting age" men even if they posed no threat.
The government announced the inquiry after BBC Panorama revealed an SAS squadron killed 54 people in suspicious circumstances on one six-month tour.

There's countless similar stories of Israel doing the same thing but this was on BBC News today.

 

[That_Bloke]

Its not an open air prison, but what China has done to Tibet is arguarbly worse, infinitely more civilians have been killed and tortured and all their homeland annexed. I sometimes use that as a parallel because Tibetans have not once I believe used terror tactics and the timeframe is almost has long. Tibetans tend to self immolate than resort to something like this. It doesnt mean, that I cant understand people in Gaza resorting to extreme measures(on some level anywyay) but you can draw comparisons.

The Israelis control every single exit point of Gaza, as well as the power lines and access to water, and boy they use that as leverage more often than not, even in time of "peace". The inhabitants can't leave Gaza unless approved by Israel and/or Egypt, a quite rare occurence. There's a maritime blockade and the Gazaouis can't go further than 11km of the coastline which is a problem when it comes to fishing. The airport has been bombed by the IAF which controls their airspace in its entirety. There are severe restictions on importations of goods as well as exportations, which basically ruined Gaza's economy leading to an explosion of unemployement (about 52%). According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, 68% of the households are food insecure. Homes in the Gaza Strip suffer, on an average, 17 hours of power cuts daily according to the same organization. My ex-wife who was there told about the daily humiliations and chicanes at the checkpoints, how often there's no running water. People there, especially the young ones, have no hope. There's no future they can look forward to.

But yeah, lets play semantics and say that it's not exactly an open-air prison.

I have no doubts that China had no qualms suppressing the Tibetans but I'm not really sure of what you're getting at. Should the Palestinians self-immolate to make their voice heard, or are you implying that their culture and religion makes them more prone to acts of violence towards others? Because as far as I know, human history proved that when occupying forces go too hard on the population, they do tend to revolt and it's generally bloody. Also if the occupying forces dispose of an overwhelming military advantage, the occupied will then concentrate on "softer" targets. The objective here isn't to obtain decisive military victory, this generally can't be achieved, but to make the cost of occupation so high that it becomes not worth it at some point. I can give you two recent examples I'm familiar with, the Indochina and Algeria Wars of Independance in the 50's and 60's. You can add the Black Resistance against the Apartheid regime in South Africa, in a different context though.

Apologies in advance if I misunderstood you.

 

[owlo]

@Murder on Zidane's Floor You might have a point really. They can easily be used as propaganda. Mods might want to give some sort of direction. That said the reactions to them show some sort of humanity from many people and a deep sense and regret for suffering (like barstool above), even as others use it to show how evil the other side is.

 

[11101]

Obviously, there is an element of collateral damage from Hamas essentially using civilians as human shields, and Israel accepting that as collateral. But there has definitely also been an element of disregard for what and where they bomb, that goes beyond that. It's pretty easy to find examples of that by simply searching for it. One example, was the shelling of the UNRWA schools that didn't just kill civilian Palestinians, but also 10 UN staff. There is also the general use of excessive force and disproportionate retaliation (i.e., kid throws rock at armoured vehicle, kid gets shot).

Yes, Israel do not indiscriminately kill hundreds of civilians like Hamas just did, but I simply don't think you can claim that Israel generally tries to avoid civilians casualties. They don't care about that one bit.

Agreed, Israel is operating to a different set of rules than everybody else. Israel will only attack military targets but they make no effort to avoid civilian casualties around them and they are not as interested in the verification of intelligence, which is starkly different to the US in Iraq and Afghan for example.

Both sides feel their existence is threatened so they're going to behave differently to what we sitting comfortably in the West think is reasonable. What Hamas did on the weekend is still a huge escalation beyond that though.

 

[Cassidy]

Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.

The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.

Agree, I was more talking to the specific example in the OP.

Also I'm not sure its true Isreal avoided civilian casualties over the years in Gaza.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Exactly. The whole world seems to sympathize with one side over the other, while the reality is that there are innocent casualties on both sides. The media is a main factor in that.

Finally deleted BBC News and Sports apps. feck them.

 

[owlo]

Agreed, Israel is operating to a different set of rules than everybody else. Israel will only attack military targets but they make no effort to avoid civilian casualties around them and they are not as interested in the verification of intelligence, which is starkly different to the US in Iraq and Afghan for example.

Both sides feel their existence is threatened so they're going to behave differently to what we sitting comfortably in the West think is reasonable. What Hamas did on the weekend is still a huge escalation beyond that though.

The last 2 days aside [which we have no data for but likely significantly skews things], this statement is verifiably bullshit.

 

[neverdie]

Both sides feel their existence is threatened

And it is. Except asymmetrically. Only one "side" has been ethnically cleansed to the point where you can barely point the WB out on a map and the other part of the only feasible solution is a dungeon which Israel habitually bombs to pieces.

Terrorists within the Palestinian factions, obviously, and terrorists called the IDF, less obviously but just as true, if not more so, given the fact that only one side has been ethnically cleansed here over an X decade period.

The statement, "do you agree Israel has a right to exist" might now be the most Orwellian thing to be heard in modern history when WB/etc., (Palestine), has been slowly and intentionally cleansed from the map with support of the same governments who have their state television experts ask that question. Citing Hamas or Iran, then, is akin to citing someone speaking about Carthage given the actual state of the conflict over the past 50 years. It is rhetoric only which does not threaten the existence of the Israeli state, at all. Meanwhile, where is the Palestinian state? Soon to move to the WB next? Who knows.